• loathsome dongeaterMA
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    1 year ago

    Love seeing how SHOCKED federated folks are at the mere implication of China being better than the US. I feel like if you view the USA from outside a highly myopic lens painted by extreme privilege, there is nothing redeemable about it. Even if the worst theories about China were true, they would be a drop in a bucket compared to how much evidenced misery the US has wrought. But most of the people slinging shit at China rarely care about the folks who are not white in the imperial core.

  • 201dberg
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    Imagine seeing what China has done for its people and the members for the belt and road initiative and thinking they are worse than the US dedicating even more money to war is better. People literally just lap up all the piss from the oligarch masters.

    There are so many instances of the CPC just up and forgiving debt from help they have donated to so many countries that are part of this initiative. No strings attached. The US meanwhile has being doing actual debt trap shit for decades. The information is out there. All you have to do is fucking look instead of regurgitating reddit bullshit some fed posted because that site is astroturfed to shit. China is trying to actually build up the world while the US tries to bomb more of it to rubble.

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    Mad respect to my comrades taking the time to try to engage and educate the liberals who literally refuse to have a positive thought about China. I’ve never seen one of them actually read an article or respond to the best points; usually they just find what they perceive is the weakest or most controversial argument and focus on that. Anything to deny the fact that sinophobic bias and believing propaganda is 90% of their reasoning for their shit takes. Still, I’m proud of the people in the community that still actively try to educate. I wish I had that patience anymore.

    • ColorcodedResistor@lemm.ee
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      remember when all those people were screaming outside of their windows during covid lockdown? does PNY still have suicide nets installed on campus? hmmm…can you name a business in america that installs suicide nets for its employees?

      “libs refuse to have a positive thought about China”

      oh. I’m sorry i thought dehumanizing and slave work conditions were shitty. i must be wrong :(

      edit: i was mistaken. my local bakery and grocery store both have suicide nets installed. damn.

      • Muad'DibberMA
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        remember when all those people were screaming outside of their windows during covid lockdown?

        Not sure what this one is about, but China’s focus community health during covid, and the sacrifices made by thousands of Chinese medical personell, made it have one of the lowest covid infection and death rates in the world, despite being the likely point of origin.

        China: 85 deaths per million

        US and UK: ~3,3k per million.

        The US lost a million ppl, more than it lost during ww2, sacrificing it’s elderly and infirm on the altar of capitalism.

        Source: Our World it Data

        does PNY still have suicide nets installed on campus? hmmm…can you name a business in america that installs suicide nets for its employees?

        Foxconn is a Taiwanese comapany, and the PRC is of course not immune to worker abuses in it’s specialized economic zones. What matters is the government response, which was to quickly address it.

        Also noteworthy in a given country is the state of despair and hopelessness among it’s population.

        Let’s compare China to the US, as well as it’s liberal neighbors:

        country Suicides per 100k
        China 6.7
        USA 14
        South Korea 21.2
        Japan 12.2

        Source: World Health Organization

        Also I think someone below addressed your Uyghur question, but let’s look at whether the world, and Muslim countries in particular (who would be the recipient of a refugee crisis of a genocide were occuring), think about China’s handling of extremist terrorism:

        Interestingly, only the white anglo countries, who’ve been bombing the ME for decades, believe a genocide is happening. The Muslim (and African, Asian, and Latin American) world disagrees.

        How does the US, UK, France, etc treat it’s muslim minorities, and ethnic minorities in general? In the US, 1 / 4 black ppl will spend time in prison.

        Slavery is fully legal as punishment for a crime. The US currently operates a system of slave labor camps, including at least 54 prison farms involved in agricultural slave labor. Outside of agricultural slavery, Federal Prison Industries operates a multi-billion dollar industry with ~ 52 prison factories , where prisoners produce furniture, clothing, circuit boards, products for the military, computer aided design services, call center support for private companies. 1, 2, 3

        In the present day, ICE (U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement), the police tasked with immigration enforcement, operates over 200 prison camps, housing over 31,000 undocumented people deemed “aliens”, 20,000 of which have no criminal convictions, in the US system of immigration detention. The camps include forced labor (often with contracts from private companies), poor conditions, lack of rights (since the undocumented aren’t considered citizens), and forced deportations, often splitting up families. Detainees are often held for a year without trial, with antiquated court procedures pushing back court dates for months, encouraging many to accept immediate deportation in the hopes of being able to return faster than the court can reach a decision, but forfeiting legal status, in a cruel system of coercion. 1, 2

        The US committed a genocide against it’s indigenous inhabitants that served as the model for Nazi Germany, and got away with it. They’re all incredibly xenophobic with respect to their muslim minorities.

        Which country or group of countries, do you think is telling the truth?

        • EuthanatosMurderhobo
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          Not sure what this one is about

          It’s about Chinese singing with open windows during lockdown, which totally not racist westerners took for wailing of starving people when they heard it on video. Well, by “took” I mean, news interpreted it for them and they rolled with that, because they’re totally not brainwashed.

  • taiphlosion
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    Libs seething that China is a better country that didn’t rely on settler colonialism and imperialism to grow it’s power

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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      China is an anathema for liberals because it’s a tangible real world demonstration that viable alternatives to liberal ideology are possible. The whole argument for liberalism is premised on the idea that liberalism sucks, but everything else is worse.

      Liberals promoted western model as the only viable system going forward ever since USSR dissolved. Any country that deviated from this model was painted as being backwards and a type of country you wouldn’t want to live in. Now we’re seeing China developing rapidly and going from strength to strength. China doesn’t suffer from the economic crashes the west has once every decade, it’s continuously improving the standard of living for its people, it coexists peacefully with other countries. It’s an example of an alternative model to liberalism that demonstrably produces better outcomes by pretty much every metric. This is why China is such a threat to liberals, it blows apart the argument that nothing better is possible.

      • taiphlosion
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        They would rather keep living a lie in which they’re still the main character and that the world runs on simplistic logic akin to a Marvel movie. The illusion can’t be kept up forever with the realities of China slowly dismantling the hegemony, tho tbh it’s not like China needs to do much when the US is deleting itself

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          I feel like even Marvel is way more complex and nuanced and logical than the vast majority of neoliberal’s racist capitalist dogma.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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          Pretty much, and I don’t know whether people will ever learn to see past anti-China propaganda in the west, but I’ve come to realize that the west doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things.

          It’s around 20% of the global population, and the rest of the world will simply move on regardless of what the west does at this point. Majority of the world is the side of China and human progress will continue to march on.

      • Nevoic@lemm.ee
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        I say this as someone who would be happy to advocate for China if I thought they were advocating for a proper socialist alternative to liberalism but sees things (propaganda?) that turn me off.

        • the Uyghur genocide: is this just Western propaganda that’s totally fabricated? Are there no “reeducation camps” and no ethnic cleansing happening?

        • standard anticapitalist takes: landlordism, bourgeoise rule, both things I oppose and seem to be alive and well in China. I see sometimes the State pushes against these forces, but so do European liberals. Walmart couldn’t even expand into the EU when they tried due to government regulating their shitty corporate practices so hard (undercutting at a loss to push local businesses out is illegal for example)

        • authoritarianism: children being banned from video games. This one hits close to home for me since I spent easily 40-60 hours a week as a kid some weeks playing video games. My childhood would’ve been vastly different, and I’m still a programmer who is employed by Alphabet so I’m “successful” and wasn’t ruined by video games. Is the idea that video games are a cancer that ruin kids and they should be studying instead? That seems dystopian, I made a bunch of longtime friends playing games growing up (10+ years at this point). I had a lot of fun as a kid. That seems important.

        Essentially China seems like a European country that also happens to be an authoritarian dictatorship. Arguably better than living in the U.S still, no doubt, but when compared to Europe I think China falls short (but socialism doesn’t). Europe/China are both incredibly far from where we need to be. Massive liberal exploitation of the masses occurs in both places.

        • ☭ 𝗚𝗿𝗮𝗶𝗻𝗘𝗮𝘁𝗲𝗿 ☭A
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          • Uyghur “genocide”: complete BS. Vocational training schools (call them “re-education camps” if you wish) did exist because of the severe terrorism problem @ksynwa mentioned. The population of Uyghurs in XInjiang has increased since the anti-terrorism measures were implemented
          • Landlordism and bourgeois rule: only exists on local levels. The reason why the bourgeoisie is still allowed to exist in China is because it’s a countermeasure against imperialism, but the CPC (whose higher-level members are chosen through bottom-up democratic elections and can be recalled by the voters if they’re unsatisfied, unlike any bourgeois “democracy”) is in charge and they crack down on bourgeois criminals, including executing billionaires. The bourgeoisie don’t own any land whatsoever, it’s only leased from the state and can be revoked
          • “Authoritarianism”: every state is inherently authoritarian. Focusing on the limits on online video games for children (single-player games aren’t affected) is an extremely silly reason to denounce a socialist project
          • Nevoic@lemm.ee
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            I think you’re dismissing the limits on video games far too fast. Maybe to someone that doesn’t engage in that as a hobby it might not seem important, but to people in the space it literally redefines our entire childhood. That’s not something to just entirely ignore.

            As for bourgeoise rule, there are mega corporations in China. It seems weird to say it only exists on local levels. And even if we just accept that, I don’t see how this impacts average workers. Are the workers no longer getting the surplus value of their labor stolen? Do they have proper cooperatives with worker ownership?

            My understanding is they essentially just exist with European-style regulations. Decent minimum wage, some labor protections, and the bourgeoise still steal massive amounts of wealth and exploit workers for 40-60 hours a week without any democratic input on workers about working conditions.

            The note about landlords not truly owning land is how every liberal state functions. Deeds are handed out by the state and can be revoked (eminent domain). And I would still say landlords are a problem in the U.S, even though the government can just take the land back. Same with China.

            • ☭ 𝗚𝗿𝗮𝗶𝗻𝗘𝗮𝘁𝗲𝗿 ☭A
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              I do enjoy video games as a hobby, and as I said, using a proposed limit (IIRC it’s optional) on how much time children can spend playing online games to condemn a government as “not socialist” is bizarre. I don’t have to agree with every single relatively minor decision made by the CPC (and it is minor, compared to the immense improvement in living standards – including the eradication of extreme poverty – for roughly one fifth of the world’s population) to support their immensely successful project.

              Please read the article “China Has Billionaires”.

          • Nevoic@lemm.ee
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            I’ll have to look into the Uyghur genocide more. Are the figures about 1 million people being put into camps complete bull shit?

            Even if the West is exaggerating the number by an order of magnitude, I still doubt there are 100,000 “terrorists” that needed to be put in camps. Why are the kids put into camps? Are they terrorists too?

            Chinese government official statistics said birth rates in Hotan and Kashgar fell by 60%. If that was done purposefully, it does fall under the international definition of a genocide (which includes preventing some or all births to depopulate a region).

        • loathsome dongeaterMA
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          the Uyghur genocide: is this just Western propaganda that’s totally fabricated? Are there no “reeducation camps” and no ethnic cleansing happening?

          Does this look like ethnic cleansing to you?

          https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DABhjZjPJDA&pp=ygUOa2FzaGdhciBJbmRpYW4%3D

          https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dpmaeIaZM&pp=ygUOa2FzaGdhciBJbmRpYW4%3D

          Xinjiang had a terrorism problem. There terrorist attacka happening until 2012. The government’s crackdown is in response to that and at worst it can be described as overpolicing. Can you name one person who was confirmed dead in this ethnic cleansing and genocide?

          • Nevoic@lemm.ee
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            I’m just using the international definition of genocide. Not a single person needs to be killed for it to be a genocide, depopulating an ethnicity from a region by destroying birth rates fits the definition too. By the Chinese government’s own statistics, birth rates in Hotan and Kashgar fell by 60% from 2015 to 2018. If that was done intentionally, it’s genocide.

            • loathsome dongeaterMA
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              I think that is really stretching the practicality of the term in order to label something genocide on a technicality based on ideological dogmatism. It is really hard to imagine a genocide where a single person is not killed. Even ignoring that, genocides always lead to a refugee and emigration crisis which also did not happen in the case of the Uyghur.

              By the Chinese government’s own statistics, birth rates in Hotan and Kashgar fell by 60% from 2015 to 2018.

              Is that enough to determine genocide? What were the birth rates after this drop? Were they in the red, leading to population reduction or stagnation? There are explanations to this drop that are not genocide. For example, ethnic minorities in China have always been lenient targets of China’s family planning policies. It is possible that the Uyghur were subjected to stricter family planning post the terrorism crisis for reasons other than genocide.

            • Muad'DibberMA
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              Many of the “china-watchers”, like Adrian Zenz, are anti-abortion, white-supremacist christian evangelicals. They view any reduction in birth rates as a genocide, even if that reduction is caused by more access to birth control. Birth rates in liberal countries, especially in countries like France, Japan, South Korea, the UK, are tanking. Do you agree with the birthers that this constitutes a genocide? (they would call it a white genocide).

              We also see lower birth rates in countries that have higher economic development in general.

    • reverendz
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      And slavery. Don’t forget the slavery.

      In fact, because of the wording of the 14th amendment, it’s still cool. As long as you get locked up for committing a crime first.

      • 🏳️‍⚧️ 新星 [she/they]
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        Apologies for the minor nitpick since it’s probably a typo, but it’s actually the 13th amendment, which is even worse since that’s the one that supposedly abolished slavery

  • Bungkarnoenjoyer
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    Liberals Are Here and Mad Af, Lol, Also I Wished all Liberals To have a Fun Trip to the Friendly Wall 😊

  • supersolid_snake
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    Both are integral to their respective economies. That’s the thing to understand.

      • Muad'DibberMA
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        Which one has 800+ military bases outside its borders? Which one has been drone bombing Muslim countries for the past 40 years? Which one has Africom, operation gladio? Which one uses people for nuclear and other bomb testing? Which one assassinates leaders of marginalized ethnic minorities? Which one wiped out its indigenous population, and whose founding fathers were all slaveowners? Which one imprisons 1 / 4 black people at some point in their lives?

      • ButtigiegMineralMap
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        “We’re placing the aid underneath chairs and forcing 25 Palestinian citizens along with 25 Israelis to play musical chairs for the aid. That makes it most fair”

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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      I guess it’s not strictly news, but wasn’t sure where to put it. With things ramping up in the Middle East, it is kind of world news worthy to note that US is aiming to spend 100 billion to continue fuelling the conflicts in Ukraine and Palestine.

    • 201dberg
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      China and US are major players on the world stage. The US funding wars and China funding infrastructure to global transport initiatives are pretty globally impactful things.

        • fox [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          Man has the divine power to be unable to lie and tries to circumvent it for his career instead of becoming the greatest philosopher and source of truth to ever exist.

      • redtea
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        No need for infrastructure when everyone’s hiding under a table.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆OP
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      imagine thinking that it’s the people who are able to see past the propaganda they’re immersed in on daily basis are the ones who are brainwashed 😂

    • Muad'DibberMA
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      Some foreigners say that our ideological reform is brainwashing. As I see it, they are correct in what they say. It is washing brains, that’s what it is! This brain of mine was washed to become what it is. After joining the revolution, it was slowly washed, washed for several decades.

      What I received before was all bourgeois education, and even some feudal education.

      • Mao Zedong
  • doctorcrimson@lemmy.today
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    My problem with this message is that it’s being sent by the same people whose legislators would never decrease defence spending and would spend the bare minimum on infrastructure. In fact, just recently, the House Republicans managed to pass H.R. 4365 with 216 R and 2 D, a 826 Bn USD Defence Budget, which is an increase of 26 Bn since the previous year and 100 Bn more than the year before that.

    Yall don’t give a fuck about infrastructure or deficit unless somebody else is president.

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        I really don’t, the people who spread this sort of message and take a stand against the USA supporting Ukraine defence and sovereignty are majority Republicans. Theres even top comments on this post talking about “the libs” in a derogatory manner.

        • taiphlosion
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          You really do.

          Republicans want to stop funding Ukraine cause they want war with China. We want them to stop funding Ukraine because it would be the quickest way to end the conflict peacefully.

          Republicans are libs too. Libs are anyone who support capitalism and it’s ideals.

          • doctorcrimson@lemmy.today
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            Lmao Republican voters don’t give a f*** about China. They just think Russia is their friend, which makes the largest foreign threat in their eyes China as a fallback.

            • taiphlosion
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              You must have missed the constant “China bad” propaganda literally playing on every American news network

              • doctorcrimson@lemmy.today
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                I do miss a lot of that stuff, literally and not figuratively. I spend a lot of time in forums and comments sections as well as looking at more global news sources that allow me to take things in a little faster than a slow CNN or Fox News video essay would.

                China’s done a lot of good things, for sure, but this discussion isn’t really about China, is it? It’s about how the USA spends it’s budget, which is a clear cut partisan issue that isn’t fairly represented.

    • Aria
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      That’s a weird comment? I think Xi Jinping is doing a great job as president. Oh wait, you’re thinking of Miguel Bermúdez, my bad, that was silly of me.

      This is a weird comment, I think Miguel Bermúdez is doing a great job as president.

      • doctorcrimson@lemmy.today
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        Oh ha ha did the post not specifically mention the USA? Did it not talk about the USA spending specifically on supporting Ukraine defence and sovereignty, an issue divided by partisanship? I wonder what temporary president I would be talking about, is it the literal dictator for life Xi Xinping? HMMMM such a mystery I clearly made a mistake lololol. /sarcasm

        • Aria
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          Let’s dissect this. In your original comment, you ascribed an origin to OP, and implied a motivation for them. This is the crux of me making fun of you. OP is extremely unlikely to be from the USA, or make a distinction between the two wings of the bureaucracy making up the regime in power in the USA. Xi Jinping has held his current position for 11 years, Miguel Bermúdez for 4 years. Neither are dictators, because they are leaders of democracies. Hope this was informative.

            • Aria
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              It would. Who are you talking about? Xi Jinping? Xi Jinping is not leader for life, he’s leader as long as he’s re-elected. He’s also not the leader of the government, China has a Prime Minister, you doofus. His party is also not the singular party that makes up the government. http://www.cppcc.gov.cn/zxww/2023/01/18/ARTI1674005617470226.shtml

              And something you left out is that the party he’s from is literally the communist party of China, which means his party’s special interest group is the people of China. Which is what democracy is. But a party representing and subservient to the people is a foreign concept to people who live in dictatorial countries and have to choose which powerful aristocrat to align themselves with.

              • doctorcrimson@lemmy.today
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                Xi Jinping won reelection with 100% of the vote. 2,952 out of 2,977 congressional votes were present and voted for him which is a 100.00% margin.

                Xi Jinping and his singular party removed the term limit for Xi Jinping, meaning as long as his party is in control then he will always be president. For Life.

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            You’re trying to massage the idea that a leader for life, who can never be removed because no other party can have a seat in their congress, is a functioning democracy? Really? What a hill to die on.

            • cfgaussian
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              The party can always remove any leader including Xi Jinping if he is no longer performing his role according to the party and the people’s expectations. Also, there are numerous (at least eight) other parties represented in the National People’s Congress of China other than the CPC. On top of that there is a larger proportion of independents than in the US congress. But this is beside the point because it would still be a democratic system even if there was only one party allowed.

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                He won with 100%. 2,952 votes present and for.

                A dissident in the Chinese congress gets removed with immediate effect.

                He is dictator for life.

                • cfgaussian
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                  Tell me you have no idea how China’s political system works without telling me you have no idea how China’s political system works.

                  Also, are you going to admit you were wrong when you claimed, quote

                  “no other party can have a seat in their congress”

                  or are you just going to sweep that lie or embarrassing admission of ignorance under the rug?

                  Why are you moving the goalposts? If Xi Jinping has to be periodically confirmed in his position by the representatives of the Chinese people then he is not “dictator for life” then is he? The fact that you cannot imagine a political consensus like that existing over a genuinely successful and popular leader is simply a testament to the dysfunction of your own liberal western political systems.

                  Furthermore, please show us evidence for this claim:

                  “A dissident in the Chinese congress gets removed with immediate effect.”

                  Where in China’s laws does it say this and when has this ever happened?

  • Mr. Satan@monyet.cc
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    Do you imply that US should not help Ukrane to defend themselves against Russia?

    • BynarsAreOk [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      Are you aware there not one but two previous attempts at negotiations that Ukraine purposedly sabotaged on their own? Are you even aware Merkel literaly admitted the Minsk agreements were merely attempts to buy time and prepare Ukraine for war.

      You can read the terms here

      All the more remarkable is her admission that the Minsk agreement served to buy time for Ukraine’s rearmament. “It was clear to all of us that this was a frozen conflict, that the problem had not been solved, but that is precisely what gave Ukraine valuable time,” Merkel told Die Zeit.

      Previously, the Minsk agreement, which Merkel signed together with then-French President François Hollande, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko and Russian President Vladimir Putin in September 2014, had been portrayed as an effort towards peace that the Russian president had allegedly later thwarted.

      Now, Merkel confirms that NATO wanted war from the start but needed time to prepare militarily—an assessment WSWS has long held.

      Russia negotiated in good faith while NATO never had any intention of honoring negotiation terms agreed by Ukraine.

      Yes quite literaly if NATO stayed the fuck out of Ukraine there wouldn’t be any war, literaly once again, they purposedly broke the agreements which were meant to prevent war and de-escalate.

      Minsk 1 was in 2014. Then there was a second Minsk agreement in 2015.

      Please for the love of god don’t parachute into this war as if history began in February 2022 I beg you.

        • BynarsAreOk [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          From where any logical and sane person is sitting, only one side commited a historical blunder of actualy admitting to the media that the Donbas war was a “frozen conflict” when in reality there were already peace agreements between both sides.

          Go complain to Merkel for making you look bad. You don’t have to believe in Russian good faith if you don’t want to, all that is necessary is to admit the actual reality of what happened and what was admitted by the west already.

            • taiphlosion
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              Say, can you tell me why Russia “invaded” Ukraine and not any of its other much weaker neighbors? I bet you think the conflict started in 2022

                • taiphlosion
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                  I’m saying why did they attack Ukraine last year (stay on topic please) and not any of its weaker neighbors, which would have been a lot easier

                • m532
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                  Finland was nazi axis. You defend nazis.

                  Edit: haha of course you have no clue why they attacked ukraine. No geopolitical knowledge at all.

                • cayde6ml
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                  I guess Russia should have let the nazis overrun Europe then

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        All Russian negotiations rely on the agreement for Ukrane to give up a part of invaded lands. That is not going to happen, especially after Crimea in 2014. Russia has no claim to the lands and any negotiations that require them are a joke.

        If Russia is not stopped no agreement will be final, it’s all about the ambition to rebuild the Soviet Union and “compromise” won’t do it.

        Of course NATO will not directly engage in this war (as sad as it is), that would result in WWIII. It is convieniet for NATO nations that the conflict is in Ukrane, but that does not change the fact Ukrane needs and is getting support indirectly, because NATO has an interest in Ukrane winning.

        Comparing that to China’s “priority” for infrastructure in the original post is at best unfair. And while arms racing in general is not a good thing, the original post lumps that together with support for Ukrane. That is the message I take issue with.

        • Aria
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          Comparing that to China’s “priority” for infrastructure in the original post is at best unfair. And while arms racing in general is not a good thing, the original post lumps that together with support for Ukrane. That is the message I take issue with.

          Okay, that’s a fair point.

          If Russia is not stopped no agreement will be final, it’s all about the ambition to rebuild the Soviet Union and “compromise” won’t do it.

          But what evidence do you have to support this? We have a short and long term history to look at showing NATO going back on their promises, lying, sowing chaos. Russia by comparison has been reliable. Isn’t the fair thing then to try to make the compromise survive as long as possible? Because the alternative to compromise is people dying. Even if it’s none of your friends, surely you don’t want Russians dying either, right?

        • BynarsAreOk [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          All Russian negotiations rely on the agreement for Ukrane to give up a part of invaded lands. That is not going to happen, especially after Crimea in 2014. Russia has no claim to the lands and any negotiations that require them are a joke.

          What are you even talking about? Seriously what part of terms agreed by Ukraine you didn’t understand? Please for the love of god actualy read about the stuff you’re commenting before replying, thank you.

    • m532
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      Telling all ukrainians to go die in war for the yanks is not “helping them”.

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          Thinking someone is “defending their homeland” when they’ve been shelling civilians since 2014 is even worse whew I can see my reflection with that kinda smooth

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          Nuland = yank

          Nuland’s hand-picked gov works for the yanks.

          If you don’t understand this, it is you who is the smoothbrain.

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        Yes, but also yes. It does prolong the war, but it also helps to save civilians and push back against an aggressor.

        • notceps [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          How does it help? Explain to me how supporting Ukraine a country that at this point now just forcibly conscripts anyone helps civilians. Have you talked to any Ukrainian women that had to flee from this conflict and that they haven’t hear anything about their husbands brothers and fathers? Were those people not civilians? Or are Ukrainian lives just not a thing? I guess it helps if Ukraine has less and less actual civilians because more and more have to get drafted into the army so some assholes can send another thousand poor people to walk across a minefield to get blown up after all if they are in the army they are no longer civilians.

          You know who it does help? US military contractors. Ukraine has received 76.8bn USD in 2022 from the USA this isn’t counting various loans that I’m sure aren’t going to be used against Ukraine to force them to privatize everything and enforce austerity policies. EU countries sent double that 140bn USD

          This is in one year from one country, we could end world hunger with a yearly investment of 23bn USD to 40bn USD, this would actually undeniably help save civilians, in fact it would save at least three times as much because the population of ukraine is something under 50mil while the population currently suffering from severe hunger is 150mil.

          The only reason why you’ve been told that this saves civilians and not you know anything else is because again selling weapons is big business and the only way governments can spend money now I guess, so yes lets save those civilians by forcing them at gunpoint to go walk into a minefield so more and more and more and more and more blood can be fed into this another horrifiyng war to fight over imaginary lines because USA liberty guns or whatever wants their stock to go up.

          If you truly believe in this shit, I think this is more of an online cheerleading thing for you, you should join up and fight the aggressor and prevent putin from doing a genocide or whatever.

            • m532
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              Projection. Always Projection. The western mouthfrothers can only imagine western crimes and then they project that onto nonwesterners. Pathetic losers.

                • m532
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                  That’s some of the countries usa and its lackeys invaded. Projection, as always.

                • cfgaussian
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                  Firstly you are conflating Russia and the USSR. Secondly, just saying names of countries without context amounts to nothing more than a gish gallop. But let’s go through point by point:

                  Georgia

                  Even a EU commission tasked with investigating the 2008 conflict admitted it was started by Georgia and its US puppet government who attacked and started shelling South Ossetia.

                  Armenia

                  What? Wtf are you even talking about? Russia has consistently protected Armenia and put its own peacekeepers’ lives on the line to aid the Armenian people. Are you confusing Russia with Azerbaijan/Turkey?

                  Finland

                  Nazi ally who went on to participate in the Siege of Leningrad that killed over a million people. Encouraged by the British to reject any and all negotiations with the Soviets that could have averted the Winter War.

                  Lithuania

                  Again: what? Are you just pulling random country names out of your ass?

                  Chechnia

                  Not a country. Part of Russia. Russia had every right to subdue US backed terrorist separatists.

                  Afghanistan

                  The USSR was explicitly asked by the government of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan, a Soviet ally and the legitimate government of Afghanistan at the time, to intervene and help them fight the US backed islamist terrorist insurgency.

                  Ukraine

                  Russia intervened in an ongoing civil war that had been raging for eight years following a fascist, US backed coup that ousted the democratically elected president. This after every attempt at negotiating a diplomatic solution was rejected by the Kiev regime and its US masters.

                  Russia acted according to international law and accepted the defensive request of the Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics which were and still are under attack by Kiev regime forces.

                  China

                  Wtf are kind of drugs are you on? We’re talking about real history here not alternate reality fantasies.

                  Poland 3 times

                  Poland invaded the territories of Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania right after WWI while the newly established Soviet Republics were still embroiled in the Russian civil war against the Whites and expeditionary forces of a dozen imperialist nations who invaded Russia to restore the Tsar’s tyranny.

                  The Soviet forces fought back but due to being stretched thin Poland managed to steal parts of Ukraine and Belarus in violation of the borders set for Poland after WWI.

                  When the Nazis invaded Poland and the Polish government fled into exile the Polish state ceased to exist. The USSR stepped in to protect the territories of “Eastern Poland” aka the stolen Ukrainian and Byelorussian lands from also being overrun by Nazis.

                  In doing this they saved millions of people and provided safe haven for countless Jews who would undoubtedly have faced extermination otherwise. The Soviets didn’t even fight against Polish forces and no one in the international community at the time recognized this as an invasion.

                  As for a third time, do you mean to say that the Red Army’s liberation of Poland from Nazi occupation was a “Russian invasion”? Are you pro-Nazi?

          • Mr. Satan@monyet.cc
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            Oh I don’t know, maybe because the same exact thing happened with Crimea. All out war didn’t start, but peope died, homes were destroyed and Russia became a little bigger.

    • REEEEvolution
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      The US is the very reason why the war happened in the first place…

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          They glorify Nazi SS collaborators, they have actual Nazis like Azov Battalion, Right Sector, etc in their military, who also use Nazi symbols and imagery, I honestly could go on

          You could just look up Stepan Bandera and that’ll give you what you need

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                  https://www.amazon.com/Germany-Republican-China-William-Kirby/dp/0804712093

                  http://www.shanghai1937.com/a-chinese-in-the-german-wehrmacht/

                  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China–Nazi_Germany_relations

                  I am an in absolute awe of the level of historical illiteracy you just demonstrated. What’s it like to go through life with absolutely no understanding of the world? Just thinking whatever the news tells you to think. An absolutely smooth, perfectly frictionless brain existing in an informational vacuum.

                  Did you even read the wikipedia article you linked me? Just the first paragraph should be enough. Here, I’ll post it so you don’t even have to click the link and I’ll also bold the parts of this wikipedia article that you should have read.

                  Nazi Germany and the Nationalist government of the Republic of China maintained bilateral relations between 1933 and 1941. The Chinese Nationalists sought German military and economic support to help them consolidate control over factional warlords and resist Japanese imperialism. Germany sought raw materials such as tungsten and antimony from China. During the mid-1930s, thousands of Chinese soldiers were trained by German officers and German economic investment made its way into China. However, Joachim von Ribbentrop strongly favored an alliance with Japan over one with China, and starting with the 1935 Anti-Comintern Pact, Germany began to realign its East Asia policy. After Japan invaded China in 1937 and Ribbentrop became Foreign Minister the following year, German aid to China was cut off. In July 1941, Nazi Germany severed relations with Nationalist China and transferred their recognition to the Japanese-controlled Wang Jingwei regime. Nonetheless, China did not officially declare war on the Axis Powers until after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

                  Surely even in your liberal bubble you should have known that both China and Taiwan both consider themselves as the real China. You couldn’t have looked up which was which? For the other links, the amazon book synopsis is in Chinese and plugging it into google translate is hard, so I’ll forgive you for not doing that. But why didn’t you at least look at the title of the book and see that it mentioned Republican China. That should have tickled a neuron in your brain. The other books is just flat out about the adopted son of Chiang Kai-shek, the leader of Nationalist China. One of the pictures even mentions him being in the post-war Taiwan military.

                  The rest of your links at least are about the correct China. I’m not going to bother reading them as you obviously just gave me the first six links you found on google without bothering to read them yourself or understand their historical context. I do hope that you read the links that you sent me and come to the correct conclusion that the Taiwan (Republic of China) was a Nazi-collaborationist state and is still friendly with the US to this day. That should put you on the right track to understanding why China (People’s Republic of China) is in the right today.

                • DoiDoi [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  I am 100% certain you searched for these sources when confronted just now. Because you have not read these. The book you linked with a synopsis in Chinese is not even on topic. What the fuck did you think you had with that one? Thought the Chinese synopsis would add some extra weight but you don’t even know what the ROC is? Embarrassing. Like so bad holy shit.

                • taiphlosion
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                  Okay, can you give us examples of China honoring SS members

    • SoyViking [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      Because they’re not idiots. They have no interest in emboldening the US empire and weakening their Russian ally. In a hypothetical scenario where the US win in Ukraines, it is likely that a comprador regime reminiscent of the Yeltzin dictatorship would be installed in Russia which would be a national security disaster for China.

      Also, since China is not ruled by idiots, they realise that the Kiev government has no viable way to victory and that prolonging the war doesn’t support Ukraine but only leads to more death and destruction.

        • alcoholicorn [comrade/them, doe/deer]@hexbear.net
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          I’m sure the Ukrainian offensive will start any day now. They just have to kick in the door and the whole rotted structure will collapse.

          And then I’m sure the idiots ruling China will collapse the country in the next year. Western media has been saying it’s poised to collapse next year for 20 years, but I’m sure they’re right this time.

    • zephyreks [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      The Global South doesn’t support Ukraine. Regardless of what politicians say, it’s just good policy to not antagonize the countries for which trade with you is growing in the double digits annually.

    • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      https://mronline.org/2022/05/07/russia-and-the-ukraine-crisis-the-eurasian-project-in-conflict-with-the-triad-imperialist-policies/

      The current global stage is dominated by the attempt of historical centers of imperialism (the U.S., Western and Central Europe, Japan—hereafter called “the Triad”) to maintain their exclusive control over the planet through a combination of:

      • so-called neo-liberal economic globalization policies allowing financial transnational capital of the Triad to decide alone on all issues in their exclusive interests;
      • the military control of the planet by the U.S. and its subordinate allies (NATO and Japan) in order to annihilate any attempt by any country not of the Triad to move out from under their yoke.

      In that respect all countries of the world not of the Triad are enemies or potential enemies, except those who accept complete submission to the economic and political strategy of the Triad… In that frame Russia is “an enemy.”

      After the breakdown of the Soviet system, some people (in Russia in particular) thought that the “West” would not antagonize a “capitalist Russia”—just as Germany and Japan had “lost the war but won the peace.” They forgot that the Western powers supported the reconstruction of the former fascist countries precisely to face the challenge of the independent policies of the Soviet Union. Now, this challenge having disappeared, the target of the Triad is complete submission, to destroy the capacity of Russia to resist.

      The current development of the Ukraine tragedy illustrates the reality of the strategic target of the Triad.

      The Triad organized in Kiev what ought to be called a “Euro/Nazi putsch.” To achieve their target (separating the historical twin sister nations—the Russian and the Ukrainian), they needed the support of local Nazis.

      The rhetoric of the Western medias, claiming that the policies of the Triad aim at promoting democracy, is simply a lie. Nowhere has the Triad promoted democracy. On the contrary these policies have systematically been supporting the most anti-democratic (in some cases “fascist”) local forces. Quasi-fascist in the former Yugoslavia—in Croatia and Kosovo—as well as in the Baltic states and Eastern Europe, Hungary for instance. Eastern Europe has been “integrated” in the European Union not as equal partners, but as “semi-colonies” of major Western and Central European capitalist/imperialist powers. The relation between West and East in the European system is in some degree similar to that which rules the relations between the U.S. and Latin America! In the countries of the South the Triad supported the extreme anti-democratic forces such as, for instance, ultra-reactionary political Islam and, with their complicity, has destroyed societies; the cases of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Libya illustrate these targets of the Triad imperialist project.

      Therefore the policy of Russia (as developed by the administration of Putin) to resist the project of colonization of Ukraine (and of other countries of the former Soviet Union, in Transcaucasia and Central Asia) must be supported. The Baltic states’ experience should not be repeated. The target of constructing a “Eurasian” community, independent from the Triad and its subordinate European partners, is also to be supported.

  • Wanderer@lemm.ee
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    Well thank God Ukraine has some allies to support it’s borders against an invading force. No good being friends with China.

    Also USA could easily spend that on infrastructure if they wanted and they should. But it doesn’t also stop the fact that they should also help Ukraine as it’s the right thing to do.

  • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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    China is building the belt and road initiative to get at resources in foreign nations like copper, which are heavily used in the war industry (the price of copper literally depends on what wars are being fought at the time). China is also spending many billions on its own war infrastructure.

    The US is definitely lacking in infrastructure projects, though.

    • KiG V2
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      Accessing copper is far from a primary goal of the BRI. Even if it was a goal–which sure China has their own interests in the BRI, who wouldn’t–the selling point of the BRI that should be of interest to you is that vulnerable, undeveloped countries that have had no choice but being victims to Western imperialism for centuries are now getting an affordable way to develop without political stipulations or debt traps.

      What China spends on their military, bottom line, is significantly less than what the US spends, not to mention all of the US’s vassals combined. When we look at the numbers per capita, China spends a tiny fraction of what the US spends.

      • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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        No, because it’s an international project that requires the cooperation of the nations involved. However, China is definitely pouring gasoline around in the South China Sea with the expansion of its territories annexing land from other countries.

        • KiG V2
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          When the US, shall we say “encourages” other countries to “cooperate” on an “international project,” it is uses threats, sanctions, coups, corruption, and outright deadly force. Even its wicked henchmen in the EU didn’t have the stomach for the war in Ukraine, several countries dragged their feet chipping in arms knowing full well it was they who would suffer the most for the US’s choices. US has to twist their arms and pull a “We’re done, when I say we’re done” to get their “allies” to back yet another project of death, destruction, and looting.

          What has China done in the South China Sea? Menacingly sailed their own ships in their own front yard? Why is this so “menacing”? Oh yeah, because the US has completely encircled them with military bases, and is trying to paint a picture that makes aggressive military action against China somehow look defensive. If you knew anything about China that wasn’t from the mouth of the biggest liar in world history, you would know China has wanted nothing but to resume diplomatic and peaceful integration of Taiwan, something that was popular and ongoing before most of us were in diapers. US, playing from their usual playbook, pours money and weapons into divide-and-conquer using disinformation and fascist empowerment.

          Learn more about geopolitics outside of the US’s distorted bubble, you will find that US starts and fuels fires, and China out of all others is the one that puts them out, hence they have earned seething hatred from the biggest snake, bully, and bandit in human history.

          • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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            I’m always open to learning from people who can have reasonable and rational discussions. I also expressed no support for the US in my comments.

            China has published new maps that expand their territory beyond their previous maps, into the territory of other countries. This has nothing to do with anything from the US, purely what China has said in the past and what they are saying now. Much of their new claimed territory is ridiculously close to the coastlines of the Philipines and Malaysia.

            I’m more than willing to call out the US on the shit they do, and agree with much of what you said on that. However the biased one in this conversation is clearly you, as you are blindly supporting China and painting them as a nation that does no evil.

            • CabanoTavares
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              There’s a lot of I’s in your comment, so let’s get that out of the way: I’m sure you’re one of the good ones, congratulations! Ok, now we can discuss things properly. Whenever someones accuses you of supporting USA in posts like these it’s because you are. When people discuss changing something and you openly criticize this change without new proposals or sugestions, you are supporting the status quo. It doesn’t matter if you agree with it completely, if you criticize some things but believe it can be reformed, or worst, if you think we should just wait around until something better comes along, the end result is the same: you’re supporting the status quo.

              So we believe that China is miles better than the US, none of the things you said here changes that. China is not perfect, but there’s no point in criticizing when we are making the argument that it’s better than what we currently have. We discuss the faults and mistakes of China when it’s appropriate to do so, doing it in this post would be counter productive. It’s basic politics

              • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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                The reason I started talking about myself is because you started an ad hominem attack, which you’re attempting to continue with. It’s falling flat.

                I’m not supporting the status quo, I’m searching for objective truth. A broken clock is right twice a day, and the status quo can be correct in some ways - even if it were wrong in every way that matters. If you want to change the status quo for the better, it would be wise to not throw the baby out with the bath water.

                We discuss the faults and mistakes of China when it’s appropriate to do so, doing it in this post would be counter productive. It’s basic politics

                You’re suggesting that your only purpose for posting here is to promote a political agenda.

                • Catfish [she/her]
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                  Why wouldn’t we be promoting a political agenda?

                  “We don’t need no culture except revolutionary culture. What we mean by that is a culture that will free you. You heard your Field Lieutenant talking about a fire in the room, didn’t you? What you worry about when you got a fire in this room? You worry about water or escape. You don’t worry about nothin’ else. If you say “What’s your culture during this fire?” “Water, that’s my culture, Brother, that’s my culture.” Because culture’s a thing that keeps you. “What’s your politics?” Escape and water. “What’s your education?” Escape and water.” - Fred Hampton - It’s A Class Struggle Goddammit!, November, 1969

                • CabanoTavares
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                  As I said, it doesn’t matter the reasons, you’re still supporting the status quo. It’s not about your intentions, it’s about the effects of your discourse. The fact is that China’s model of international relations is better than US’s and should be incentivized, the denial of this fact is the same as the support for the opposite affirmation.

                  This post is supporting change, a better alternative to what we currently have. Proposing change is a political process. The fact that the word politic has become demonized by liberals doesn’t change that fact

        • ComradeSalad
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          What land have they annexed from other countries? Name one territory, city, province, or piece of land. Please, name one.

          • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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            Well, China’s claims are probably that they were always Chinese territory, in spite of 100 years of history and previous Chinese government publications. But the fact is many of the islands within the new bounds on China’s latest maps are internationally recognised as being the territory of other countries. Thus, China is attempting to annex these lands from those countries. The latest maps claim territory well within 100km of the Philipines’ coastline, and it’s practically right on the coast of a Malaysian island.

            Examples include Scarborough Shoal off the Philipines, the Spratly Islands, and I think there was some Japanese administrated island that I can’t be bothered to look up right now.

            • ComradeSalad
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              But have they annexed those countries? You are not describing annexation.

              • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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                If an island is owned by one country, then taken by another, that is annexation.

                The dispute is whether the first country owned it, however that argument is very weak.

                • ComradeSalad
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                  But you said “maps claim it”, that is not annexation. You require boots on the ground occupation to annex a territory, you can’t just claim an annexation into existence.

                  I ask again, where has China, “taken those islands”?

                  You are making yourself look like a fool.

                  For example, the US and Canada both claim several islands and territories owned by the other. Canadian maps show they own it, and American maps show they own it. Have either of the two countries “annexed” that territory?

        • cayde6ml
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          1 year ago

          This just in: China cooperating with other asian countries to set up defensive positions and listening outposts in the South CHINA Sea is somehow a bad thing.

          • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            They’re not cooperating with the other Asian countries, those countries are angry with China for claiming their territory. China is cooperating with mainland countries to build road and rail networks through to the Middle East, but treats all the island countries with disdain, while building artificial islands close to their shores.

            Also, the sea is merely named after the large country in the area, many other countries are in the South China Sea - but that doesn’t mean they’re a part of China’s territory. The Indian Ocean is quite a long way from India, New Zealand is in the Tasman Sea, several states are on the Gulf of Mexico, etc.

            • cayde6ml
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              1 year ago

              China isn’t claiming territory that’s not theirs, it multiple times offered to jointly build defensive fortifications with other neighboring countries to safeguard against invasion. Yet when they said no, they had the gall to throw a fit that China built some to protect itself.

              treats all the island countries with disdain, while building artificial islands close to their shores.>>

              Citation needed

              Good thing that all the fortifications that China builds are within it’s internal waters or act as safeguards and watch posts for nearby countries.

              Keep up the slander.

              • TWeaK@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                We’re discussing via writing, so if it’s anything it’s libel. But it isn’t that either - for a start nothing I’ve said is false, and neither does it damage their reputation.

                China is claiming territory that a few years ago they did not claim. They’re doing this, in part, by building artificial islands very close to the lands of other countries. The idea being they want to expand their borders 200 miles around their new islands, regardless of whose territory this encroaches.

                • cayde6ml
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                  1 year ago

                  I never disputed your second paragraph, I said the reasons for doing it are fundamentally different.