I think it’s pretty clear that China is nothing like US. I think it’s important to look where the labor and resources are allocated in the country. In a capitalist state like US, they’re primarily allocated towards producing surplus value for the capital owners, meanwhile production of socially useful things is entirely incidental.

On the other hand in China, we see huge amounts of resources devoted towards ending poverty. They are on track to eliminate abject poverty this year. They poured more concrete in three years than US has in the entire 20th century. They provide food, housing, healthcare, and education for the vast majority of the population.

China also hasn’t shown aggressive imperialist tendencies like US. Since the 1970s, China has not once gone to war while US has not spent a day at peace. Since 2001, the U.S. has spent over $6 trillion on military operations and war, money that might have been invested in the infrastructure of home.. So, while capitalism drives constant war and exploitation, socialism is improving the quality of life for the people of the nation.

Furthermore, CCP has 90 million members. This comes out to 15.5 citizens to every party member. Xi has also introduced reforms that make membership more strict in order to prevent careerism. So, every person in China either personally knows a party member or related to a party member. This translates to China having strong social programs, providing housing, education, and healthcare for their citizens that I mentioned above. People in China predominantly agree that the party is working in their interest.

China now surpassed US in number of fortune 500 companies, and 24 out of the 25 largest companies in China are state owned.The only private company on there is Huawei which is technically a cooperative. China also keeps their billionaires on a leash, and actually jails them which is unheard of in the West.

It’s also worth remembering that China is working towards communism. Nobody is saying that the current situation is the end state. Both Marx and Lenin say that you can’t just create a communist society out of the blue. It has to be a process to transform it gradually towards communism. This is the whole idea behind withering of the state. Lenin also correctly notes that it’s not possible for this to happen until communism is the dominant ideology in the world. The capitalist forces are always going to fight communism, and a state is needed to combat that.

China obviously has made mistakes, but that’s just how life works. It’s not possible to do something completely new and get everything right on the first try. However, what’s important is that China is clearly learning from their mistakes and improving as they go along. This is in line with the concept of implementing scientific communism.

I wouldn’t say we viciously defend it, after all even if China wasn’t socialist it’d be worth defending from an anti-imperialist perspective. China emerged from years of colonial subjugation (the century of humiliation) after the Chinese revolution, and built what is today the only country capable of challenging US world domination.

Really though, China’s massive improvements in life expectancy, real wages, and living standards show that its socialist, planned system is working.

No system is perfect, especially in a transition away from world capitalism, and subordinating the market economy to the will of the CPC, to provide for the needs of the people, and protecting China from western interventionism, remain the most important tasks for the CPC.

As far as “China not being communist”:

• The backbone of the economy is state ownership and socialist planning. 24 / 25 of the top revenue companies are state-owned and planned. 70% of the top 500 companies are State-owned. 1, 2
• Didn’t China go Capitalist with Deng Xiaoping? Didn’t it liberalize its economy? Is China’s drastic decrease in poverty a result of the increase in free market capitalist policies?
• Is the CPC committed to communism?
• The Long Game and Its Contradictions.

They’re aren’t perfect but they’re a force of damn good over all with building projects in their nation along with others vs bombing and instigating battles, standing up the US and mostly being chill rather than outright hostile, not to mention they care a lot more about their people than the US does, lifting the most out of poverty and all. Even if they weren’t socialist as few here have written, you have to admit that’s laudable.

Even going back to Engels you don’t get from socialism to communism overnight, its a multistep process. I think Xi has helped soften some of the contradictions Deng left sharp with opening trade, but back in the day that just had to be done to adjust to material conditions of the time and prepare for the turn of the century and the US hegemony. To have the people ultimately control the market is a good step toward getting to later stages of socialism and some future time, communism. Deng’s method wasn’t pretty and errorless, but reality rarely is, you can’t daydream of the best instant-communism perfect no-error just add revolution, its just not founded in reality, we’re working in a material earth with a complex history and relations between people. They don’t simply ‘go away’.

Ignore socialism for one moment

China developed from sub saharan African conditions only 40 years ago

They went from feudalism and a century of humiliation before the Chinese Communists came to power in 1949

Prior to 1949 the life expectancy was 35

20 years under Mao this had doubled to 70 years old

Since 1979 China has not been in a war and has gone from said sub saharan African conditions to a space faring civilisation landing on the far side of the moon and putting rovers on Mars

They did this without the hyper exploitation of colonies and wars of imperialism for conquests of booty

The Chinese people know what life was like a generation ago - their parenta tell them. The Communist Party of China enjoys a 89% approval rating of Chinese people precisely because they’ve lifted up the greatest number of humans out of poverty in such a short period of time

For that alone China should be praised daily by the world proletariat and the world socialist movement in the face of the most reactionary and murderous regime the world has ever seen (US and its puppets in Nato)

We can, of course, get onto comradely critiques of whether China is in socialism, whether they have succumbed to revisionism etc.

But we can only do that, as far as im concerned, when youve said your ten hail marys to China and thanked the CCP for it’s unbelievable sprint of humanity it has done for the human race since 1949

Bolivia staged coup 2019 玻利维亚上演政变2019 North Dakota Access Pipeline Protests 北达科他州接入管道抗议 Ferguson Riots 弗格森暴动 2017 St. Louis protests2017年圣路易斯抗议活动 Nuclear testing at Bikini Atoll 比基尼环礁的核试验 Unite the Right rally 团结右集会 Charlotte riots 夏洛特暴动 Attack on the Sui-ho Dam 袭击穗河水坝 Milwaukee riots 密尔沃基骚乱 Shooting of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile 奥尔顿·斯特林和菲兰多·卡斯蒂利亚的射击 Occupation of the Malheur NationalWildlife Refuge Malheur国家野生动物保护区的占领 death of Freddie Gray 弗雷迪·格雷的死 Shooting of Michael Brown迈克尔·布朗的拍摄 death of Eric Garner, Oakland California 奥克兰奥克兰市埃里克·加纳(Eric Garner)逝世 Operation Condor 神鹰行动 Occupy WallStreet 占领华尔街 My Lai Massacre 我的大屠杀 St. Petersburg, Florida 佛罗里达州圣彼得堡 Kandahar Massacre 坎大哈屠杀 1992Washington Heights riots 1992年华盛顿高地暴动 No Gun Ri Massacre 无枪杀案 L.A. Rodney King riots 洛杉矶罗德尼·金暴动 1979 Greensboro Massacre 1979年格林斯伯勒大屠杀 Vietnam War 越南战争 Kent State shootings肯特州枪击案 Bombing of Tokyo 轰炸东京 San Francisco Police Department Park Station bombing 旧金山警察局公园站爆炸案 Assassination of MartinLuther King, Jr. 小马丁·路德·金遭暗杀。 Long Hot Summer of 1967 1967年炎热的夏天 Bagram 巴格拉姆 Selma to Montgomery marches 塞尔玛到蒙哥马利游行 Highway of Death 死亡之路 Ax Handle Saturday 星期六斧头 Battle of Evarts 埃瓦茨战役 Battle ofBlair Mountain 布莱尔山战役 McCarthyism 麦卡锡主义 Red Summer 红色夏天 Rock Springs massacre 岩泉大屠杀 Pottawatomie massacre 盆大屠杀 Jeju uprising 济州起义 Colfaxmassacre 科尔法克斯大屠杀 Reading Railroad massacre 阅读铁路大屠杀

If you don’t think China is a socialist state, then before you critique it, you need to spend time studying it from the perspective of communists. This is something Anarchists and the western left refuse to do, which is why there’s a trend within the popular left to see China as a failed state that fell to capitalism and despotism. In reality, though China has many flaws, it does many things right and proves that a socialist planned economy and Marxism-Leninism can beat capitalism at its own game, while uplifting millions and crushing imperialism.

We’re not just upholding the enemy of the United States, we’re also defending a genuinely socialist state that genuinely attempts to dislodge capitalism’s monopoly on global politics. Even if you don’t agree with China’s domestic policies - to which there are a few questionable ones - you would be a fool to be opposed to their foreign policies. You would also be a fool to oppose the only state strong enough to challenge American hegemony during a time when American hegemony is on the way out, and the Americans are trying anything keep their diseased fingers in other nation’s business.

'Kay. Everyone else here has said basically all i wanna say.

Back before i was an ML, i thought China was 'not really socialist. I believed all the BS Chris Hedges [trotskyist] said about the place.

And i STILL supported them. Because they are THE bulwark against imperialism.

No having read up, and investigated, they are socialist. Marxist-Leninist trough and through.

so, here is all the info i have on hand going over the socialist/capitalist argument:

Yes, China is socialist: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VEeabfuAeAt_NU5KNHmGh0c9MKrQaIgtXExxmhmur68/?fbclid=IwAR0qTwbGMx-xc-BUhumsbT7NJ8KZTO-X5S-IgK9a2TuQY7zJVaFBt1dr0ag https://monthlyreview.org/2018/10/01/on-the-nature-of-the-chinese-economic-system/ China is in an early stage of socialism. Consider this quote: “If you want to talk about socialism, let us not forget what socialism achieved in China. At one time it was the land of hunger, poverty, disasters. Today there is none of that. Today China can feed, dress, educate, and care for the health of 1.2 billion people. I think China is a socialist country, and Vietnam is a socialist nation as well. And they insist that they have introduced all the necessary reforms in order to motivate national development and to continue seeking the objectives of socialism. There are no fully pure regimes or systems. In Cuba, for instance, we have many forms of private property. We have hundreds of thousands of farm owners. In some cases they own up to 110 acres. In Europe they would be considered large landholders. Practically all Cubans own their own home and, what is more, we welcome foreign investment. But that does not mean that Cuba has stopped being socialist.” — Fidel Castro, 1994 And this: “Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke? No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society. In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.” — Friedrich Engels, 1847 Further reading: Is China truly socialist? Consider these:

1. A study by Domenico Losurdo, University of Urbino: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=519387068599050&id=449358525601905

2. A paper by Ajit Singh, University of Manitoba: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=498438047360619&id=449358525601905

3. A speech by Xi Jinping on socialism with Chinese characteristics: https://www.facebook.com/notes/joshua-hanks/uphold-and-develop-socialism-with-chinese-characteristics/10157087761668190/ https://return2source.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/china-market-socialism-a-question-of-state-revolution/ “China’s state sector, meaning government owned businesses, dominates the national economy, and its presence is being felt, more and more, across our Pale Blue Dot. There are 155,000 state owned enterprises (SOEs) in China, in every imaginable sector and industry. Their book value is US$17.4 trillion, more than America’s annual GDP. Since the 1990s, China has been and continues to adopt capitalist practices to make its SOEs perform better and be more transparent. A number of them are selling a portion of their ownership to the public, by listing shares on Chinese stock markets, keeping the vast majority of ownership in government hands, usually up to a 70% government-30% stock split. This sort of shareholder accountability has improved the performance of China’s SOEs, which is Baba Beijing’s goal.” http://www.greanvillepost.com/2015/08/20/the-myth-of-chinese-capitalism-2/

“He [Deng Xiaoping] called on the Marxists to realize “that poverty is not socialism, that socialism means eliminating poverty.” He wanted one thing to be absolutely clear: “Unless you are developing the productive forces and raising people’s living standards, you cannot say you are building socialism.” No, “there can be no communism with pauperism, or socialism with pauperism. So to get rich is no sin.” Deng Xiaoping had the historic merit of understanding that socialism had nothing to do with the more or less egalitarian distribution of poverty and privation. In the eyes of Marx and Engels, socialism was superior to capitalism not only because it ensured a more equitable distribution of resources but also, and especially, because it ensured a faster and more equal development of social wealth, and to achieve this goal, socialism stimulated competition by affirming and putting into practice the principle of remuneration according to the quantity and quality of work delivered. https://www.google.com/amp/s/sociologicalfragments.com/2019/05/13/has-china-turned-to-capitalism-reflections-on-the-transition-from-capitalism-to-socialism/amp/ https://return2source.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/china-market-socialism-a-question-of-state-revolution/

No, China is not capitalist: https://chinareporting.blogspot.com/2009/11/class-nature-of-chinese-state-critique_26.html?m=1 https://k-j-w1996.tumblr.com/post/619938649440714752/dialectical-analysis-of-chinese-political-economy https://izaknovak.wordpress.com/2020/07/15/is-the-us-china-conflict-simply-inter-capitalist/ https://www.greanvillepost.com/2020/02/17/is-china-capitalist/ https://popularresistance.org/why-is-china-painted-as-capitalist-by-western-media/ https://return2source.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/china-market-socialism-a-question-of-state-revolution/ No, China is not Imperialist. https://www.greanvillepost.com/2015/05/06/russia-and-china-are-not-imperialist/ https://medium.com/@rainershea612/catagorically-debunking-the-claim-that-china-is-imperialist-a9ae7b280a44 https://www.brookings.edu/blog/africa-in-focus/2020/06/09/chinas-debt-relief-for-africa-emerging-deliberations/ https://chinaafricaproject.com/2019/12/18/deborah-brautigam-debunks-the-chinese-debt-trap-theory-in-new-research-paper/ https://news.abs-cbn.com/news/03/09/19/china-debt-trap-ph-an-expert-in-bad-loans-locsin-says https://reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN21Y3KN?__twitter_impression=true http://www.sundaytimes.lk/170319/news/hambantota-port-deal-two-major-clauses-to-appease-critics-233515.html https://rainershea.com/f/china-isn’t-imperialist-it’s-the-great-ally-of-global-socialism China/Africa: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oeo4OVLUlWDk2NZI3UO6rl6bzVdiSQOdJYRukPffJA4/edit https://medium.com/@leohezhao/china-africa-a-new-accord-e375a6ffe535 https://www.workers.org/2020/05/48572/ https://liberationschool.org/five-imperialist-myths-about-chinas-role-in-africa/ https://qz.com/africa/1379457/china-africa-summit-african-leaders-praise-relations-with-beijing/

The long game: https://medium.com/@leohezhao/the-long-game-and-its-contradictions-8ff92823cf68 On ‘State Capitalism: “it is only possible to achieve real liberation in the real world by employing real means, that slavery cannot be abolished without the steam-engine and the mule and spinning-jenny, serfdom cannot be abolished without improved agriculture, and that, in general, people cannot be liberated as long as they are unable to obtain food and drink, housing and clothing in adequate quality and quantity. “Liberation” is an historical and not a mental act, and it is brought about by historical conditions, the development of industry, commerce, agriculture, the conditions of intercourse”. –––– Karl Marx A more accurate view of “state capitalism” is not as betrayal, but a necessary phase, in the long and arduous process of building socialism, in the context of a world market dominated by the logic of capital. The only other options for under developed socialist states are capitulation or death. In so-called “state capitalism”, there are private companies which exist within state managed sectors, they are all completely answerable to the communist party, and must put the interest of the people before profits. Here is what Lenin himself had to say about the matter: “For socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly. Or, in other words, socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly” “The state capitalism, which is one of the principal aspects of the New Economic Policy, is, under Soviet power, a form of capitalism that is deliberately permitted and restricted by the working class. Our state capitalism differs essentially from the state capitalism in countries that have bourgeois governments in that the state with us is represented not by the bourgeoisie, but by the proletariat, who has succeeded in winning the full confidence of the peasantry. Unfortunately, the introduction of state capitalism with us is not proceeding as quickly as we would like it. For example, so far we have not had a single important concession, and without foreign capital to help develop our economy, the latter’s quick rehabilitation is inconceivable.” ––––– Vladimir Lenin “Capitalism is a bane compared with socialism. Capitalism is a boon compared with medievalism, small production, and the evils of bureaucracy which spring from the dispersal of the small producers. Inasmuch as we are as yet unable to pass directly from small production to socialism, some capitalism is inevitable as the elemental product of small production and exchange; so that we must utilise capitalism (particularly by directing it into the channels of state capitalism) as the intermediary link between small production and socialism, as a means, a path, and a method of increasing the productive forces.” ––– Lenin, “The Tax in Kind” (1921) https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/ichtci/11.htm "Within the limits indicated, however, this is not at all dangerous for socialism as long as transport and large-scale industry remain in the hands of the proletariat. On the contrary, the development of capitalism, controlled and regulated by the proleta

What I’ve figured over reading and studying theory for myself is when you think you’ve understood Socialism and specifically scientific Socialism, you read something else that shows how little you know. There is no specific formula for how to build Socialism in a country. In the 19th century the international wasn’t going around imposing a one formula for all; they would learn the conditions of a specific nation and critique the party programme of their labor or workers or social democratic parties. Was NEP Russia not Socialist? Well Lenin tells you why that’s not true. Marx as well knew that the new society would be marked with the birth pangs of the old. Communists do not see capitalism as totally evil but rather as a great tool that greatly develops the productive forces. Once those forces are developed enough then they can be used to build Socialism.

It’s AES (Actually Existing Socialism) like Vietnam and Laos. Therefore, I defend it.

Are you a communist?

I’m gonna be honest, some people in these circles have a way too delusional view of China for my liking, and will defend basically every part of it.

I personally think you don’t have to do that. There’s a lot of problems in China, and it doesn’t make you a “bad Marxist” to admit that. I still support it however, while it’s not perfect I wouldn’t say it’s a capitalist country like the U.S. and I think the world is a better place with China in it than if the U.S. had zero competition in the world stage.

The U.S., Brazil, and India all have far-right crazies in charge. Can you imagine the world if China wasn’t what it is? The world would literally be dominated by fascists. I’ll always prefer a “not so perfect” communism to fascism and shit like that. God knows what kinda leadership China would have right now if it wasn’t for the communist party.

Yeah, I wish it was better and I do think there are serious issues. But compared to the alternatives, I’m glad China exists and I support them.

Because I have no faith in the western left and see them as my only hope of not getting killed by fascists.

Why is this post getting brigaded, and by whom?

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Removed by mod

I don’t support China