If it wasn’t collapsing, it wouldn’t be in the red.
checkmate tankies
the higher they climb the faster they fall! got’em
Lol at the UK just making shit up.
Making shit up and still getting beaten by the “lazy” French and Italians.
UK’s books are in the black again because they ran out of red ink
Stocks in left over black ink from all those old inkjet printers found in landfill sites increase GDP by 4pts this year as it’s revealed that adding a bit of water brings then back to liquid.
…
Turmoil in Britain this week as Nestlé refuses to let the British use water for bathing, choosing instead to sell Britain’s waterways to the highest bidder—second-hand ink manufacturers. The price increase of Nestlé shares raise GDP another 3pts.
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https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDP_RPCH@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD
Even the IMF puts China at 4.2 in Q3 (Oct 2023).
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Extrapolating the data from the first 9 months (aka first 3 quarters) of 2023 to estimate what the last 3 months provided isn’t inflating it? Look at the IMF’s data for the US and UK and what OP’s graph projects.
If it’s about giving China a handjob why would they inflate the US’s GDP as well?
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You can’t possibly make that claim without showing your mathematics to disprove it, fam.
If something rises from 0 to 4.2 in 270 days, how would it not hit at least 5.0 on 365 days?
You probably think it’s a bunch of bots you’re arguing with but man, you’ll take anti-China articles at face value without ever looking further than a headline but will disregard anything even pro-China as propaganda, I think you might be extremely biased.
Like at this stage a sane person would just concede right?
4.2 / 3 = 1.4
4.2 + 1.4 = 5.6
If anything, the screenshot is underestimating the fourth quarter.
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Drone
I think when the highest quality most respected China collapse preachers say collapse, they mean entering a Japan style stagnation. I’m not sure, because that would require me to consume a lot of China collapse preacher content, but I think that’s how they can justify the narrative across different levels of seriousness.
Even that narrative is fundamentally flawed because Japan’s stagnation in the 80s was a direct result of US imposing Plaza Accords on Japan. There is no opportunity for US to do the same with China.
It makes more sense if you look at it as a declaration of intent
true
If China can manage to turn its industries and markets to an internal production/consumption model and reduce its reliance on being an export economy, it would be much better off even without the massive growth. Growth will have to stop at some point, and the focus will be on stability, since China hasn’t made any indications it’ll try to fuel growth through imperialism like western economies have. Japan style stagnation would be not so terrible if your society is socialist.
hopefully they would ramp up the social services to at least socdem levels in that scenerio
absolutely shame the west
Even with the current model of state directed capitalism, the amount of investment into social services and poverty reduction already shame the west. China isn’t yet in a position to press the communism button, but once the threat of America and it’s puppets decline there may well be a pivot.
i think america is the main reason they still have shitty work conditions. i mean they still are better then the U.S. but it’s sort of the inverse of the U.S.-Soviet competition over working conditions
so either way America has got to go
respected China collapse preachers
I assume this is read in the same way as “feminist ISIS member”.
If you hold that graph up to your ear, you can actually hear the liberals going “yes but actually…”
I did and they sent me this WSJ article
“How will the Free Market work if you don’t assure the largest players that they’ll be able to socialize their losses?! Read BASIC ECONOMICS!”
Shoot, I don’t have it offhand but you should send the Ben Norton video back, where he talked about how China is letting their property sector fail in order to shift their economy to being focused on green energy and tech.
As well, he mentions how morally corrupt it is to use property as an investment and how shifting where your investments are is actually a better idea.
But at what cooooost
yeah so many propagandists point to the slow down in economic growth from “socialist god” levels to “economic miracle” levels and are like china is falling apart they are due for a depression any day
Gotta have a reason to keep those Gordon Chang books on the shelf.
Lmao at Germany. Imagine letting America completely demolish your economy like this and still following them around like a dog. “Um it was probably Polish revanchist terrorists or something that blew up the pipeline, definitely not the one actor in the vicinity that had the means and motive to do it.”
My fav part is how members of parliament in Germany asked to see the details on the Nord Stream investigation at one point, and the government was like no we can’t make this public because it’ll negatively affect our security. 🤡
Tbf China’s economy is less decayed (there’s less surplus capital), but that’s not a point for capitalism.
As an aside - anyone know what’s going on in Germany? I was under the impression they were doing things pretty well over there
Much of German economy was supported by farming and manufacturing sectors. These were predicated on getting cheap energy from Russia to stay competitive. At the start of the war, German government provided subsidies to offset the shock of energy prices shooting up. The idea was that Russian economy would collapse quickly due to western sanctions, and then everything would go back to normal.
Now that subsidies are running out, Germany can’t compete with manufacturing in places like China where there energy is much cheaper, and farmers are literally coming out with pitchforks because they can’t make ends meet.
Very interesting. Thank you for the response! I’m a somewhat ignorant westerner so I always think of Germany as being very much a high end manufacturing and sciences based country - making fairly complex industrial machinery and precision tools and such. I didn’t know they relied on Russia so heavily, though I suppose it makes sense given its location.
Unfortunate that they didn’t take some notes from Frances book and get heavy into Nuclear.
Indeed, if Germany invested in alternative energy first then decoupling from Russia wouldn’t have been such a big problem. For some weird reason German greens absolutely hate nuclear though.
There’s a liberal trend in green politics here in the US that hates nuclear energy, also. They tend to justify the view by only ever bringing up the dangers of nuclear power, and arguments about nuclear waste (ignoring the fact we keep getting better in both these areas). I’m willing to bet the German greens hold the same views.
That’s my impression as well. It’s just kind of become a cult at this point with no rational thought behind it.
They tend to justify the view by only ever bringing up the dangers of nuclear power, and arguments about nuclear waste (ignoring the fact we keep getting better in both these areas).
I’ve even seen people like that on here before when the topic’s come up too, it’s an annoyingly common sentiment
I’m not surprised. I’ve seen a few green politics opinions here that seem idealistic or moralistic to me.
One data point doesn’t make a trend. The Chinese economy isn’t collapsed, but the rate of growth of GDP for China has been negative (rate of growth, it’s still positive growth) since at least 2012 from what I can see. The US rate of growth is fairly static over the same time (a slightly positive rate of growth, but not much), but about half the value of China’s.
Don’t cherry pick data. It’s not useful.
Don’t cherry pick data. It’s not useful.
You’re the one doing mental gymnastics here. “Oh yeah the Chinese economy is growing every year but it’s not GROWING growing, you see if you jumble the numbers a bit more you can actually get a negative number” fuck off dude.
using differential equations to prove China is failing lol
also, a lower % one year than the year before could also indicate relatively stable absolute levels of growth
Someone please show me the snap and jerk of the Chinese economy that’s the only way we can be sure
I’m not jumbling numbers. Just look at a chart of GDP over time, or easier GDP change over time. It’s easy to see. I’m not saying China is collapsing, but the growth is slowing. There’s no need to make things up. It’s still growing faster than almost anyone else.
Yeah look at the numbers why don’t you. IMF you are using predicts G7 will do far worse than China. In fact the forecast for the US in 2024 is just 1%.
So you might have made a point about global slowdown where China is still outperforming everyone, but you chose something else…
Well yeah. This is clearly just a post making fun of all the “China is collapsing” shit you see in liberal media and spaces when the truth continues to be the opposite. Probably not aimed at you if you understand the nuances.
Comparing the most recently available GDP growth data for one year across multiple major economies : cherry picking
Wondering why data from several decades ago (during the height of rapid massive industrialization that countries tend to only ever do once in their entire history) wasn’t included : not cherry picking
One year is meaningless. A few years ago China’s economy did much worse (covid), so someone could pick that year and make things up. You need to look at a trend for it to mean anything.
All knowledge must include trend lines, otherwise it is not knowledge. Thus spake the god of epistemology.
Orcocracy’s razor.
That’s only a problem for those who demand exponential growth. And your assumptions are based on the unsustainable model of western imperialism; as China implements it’s green energy, transport, automated agriculture, and housing policies, those sectors won’t need to keep ‘growing’ as they do in capitalist states to prop up GDP. Even if it’s right that if the slowing rate of growth leads to a net GDP shrinkage, it doesn’t portend collapse.
That’s not counting the effect of BRICS+ and the BRI on interpreting GDP. You don’t need such a high GDP when you cooperate with your neighbours, when your GDP isn’t a measure of how much you bully your neighbours and oppress your foreign and domestic workforce.
Many have repeatedly and outstandingly wrongly claimed either bluntly or in what they think is ‘clever’ subtleness that China is about to collapse. Do you really want to be in that crowd when the music stops?
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That’s only a problem for those who demand exponential growth.
Dude, GDP only matters for that. I’m not the one who started talking about GDP. Either this thread is useless because the measure (GDP) is useless, or it’s perfectly fine to talk about the context of what the threads about. Either way, it’s the OP you should complain about.
Anyway, China’s GDP is growing at about double the US’s. It doesn’t matter though, right? It’s growing at a negative rate, but it’s still growing faster than almost anyone else, because China('s government) cares about GDP, even though GDP doesn’t help the average person.
Even the most orthodox of economists almost universally agree that growth diminishes as a country becomes more developed since the low hanging fruit of development is exhausted and more capital and resources are necessary for the same amounts of growth.
China’s growth rate trending down over time is no more an indication of any sort of stagnation or collapse than one year of growth is an indication of economic strength.
Ironically you’re not doing substantially less cherry picking than you’re accusing OP of by engaging in shallow single factor analysis.
This is exactly what I’m saying. The growth is coming to a more reasonable level. It’s steadily trended down for years now, and will likely end up near US levels if I had to guess.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/263616/gross-domestic-product-gdp-growth-rate-in-china/
If that is exactly what you meant to say then I suggest you put more thought into how you phrase things because that’s not the meaning I extracted from your post and I don’t think I’m alone in that based on the other responses here.
Furthermore, there is no such thing as an objectively “reasonable” rate of growth for a country since the physical, social, and economic factors behind growth are different for each country.
No, there isn’t a “reasonable” rate of growth. Of course. It is just what it is. GDP isn’t even useful to an average person. I was only commenting on the OP because it’s misleading (on purpose) and there’s no need for that.
True, it’s just basic tendency for the rate of profit to fall.
Doesn’t the US count things like the excessive healthcare costs into its GDP?
it also counts debt and financial services lol, so the more times you re-sell somebodys mortgage, the more “productive” the economy is
Also, unequal exchange.
Also the bloated contracts the US military contractors get where everything is twice as expensive than it needs to be.
This is literally the GDP growth rate. I don’t think you know what you are talking about, but please point us to a definition of the indicator you are talking about as well as to the comparison by country.
I think they’re comparing the 2nd derivative of GDP; the growth rate is the 1st derivative.
The claim is roughly:
The US is growing slowly, but doing so at a consistent pace. It will keep growing 2% indefinitely.
China is growing faster now, but the rate is slowing year over year. They will grow 5% this year, 4% next year,… The implication is that they’ll eventually settle domewhere below the US for (preferred boogeyman reason)
Of course the premise is low value speculation, but the math concepts can be parsed.
yeah they’re talking about the rate of the rate of growth… which maybe helps them with cognitive dissonance by still being able to find some negative thing about why China still seems to be doing just fine
I don’t need to find anything negative with China. I don’t have an issue with China. Look at this graph and tell me it’s going up.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/263616/gross-domestic-product-gdp-growth-rate-in-china/
This is IMF forecast data. Check how it looks like for the G7. Spoiler: it’s far worse than this forecast for China. How does the forecast of 1% US growth in 2024 fit into your “stable growth of the US”?
China is still growing far faster than the G7 so you missed the point entirely.
The US is growing slowly, but doing so at a consistent pace. It will keep growing 2% indefinitely.
I’m not claiming this. Nothing can.
China is growing faster now, but the rate is slowing year over year. They will grow 5% this year, 4% next year,… The implication is that they’ll eventually settle domewhere below the US for (preferred boogeyman reason)
Pretty much this, without the boogeyman reason. I’m not claiming a reason. I don’t even think it’ll be below US levels necessarily, but it won’t keep growing as fast as it was. The trend is pretty steady, for the US and China, though things of course change and it’s probably logarithmic I’d guess, not linear. It’ll steady out somewhere. (Edit: Well, it’ll steady out per capita probably, which is part of why GDP is so useless. It’s not measured per capita.)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/263616/gross-domestic-product-gdp-growth-rate-in-china/
There’s no need to make things up. Either China (and any other country) can stand on its own or it can’t. People shouldn’t be mislead. Now, I don’t think GDP is that useful, but I didn’t start the thread about GDP.
It’s 1 year. The rate at which it’s growing is negative. If the trend continues it goes below US levels fairly soon, though it’s GDP so who cares.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/263616/gross-domestic-product-gdp-growth-rate-in-china/
The criteria for the GDP measure changed in 2009 which put a heavier weight on R&D capitalization. This makes it an unfair comparison since China economy is mostly manufacturing-based. The fact that their growth rate is so high despite this is very notable.
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Is the IMF simping for China? Because they placed China at 4.2 in Q3 2023 and US at 1.5
I hope you’re not getting your information from a bunch of clickbait YouTubers, who exaggerate the importance of real estate to the overall Chinese economy for a headline.
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I don’t think you understand how the data is being calculated. Give me a second
So imagine you’re drawing a graph
On the Y axis, you have growth in %
On the X axis, you have time.
Assuming you start Jan 1st 2023 with 0%
And the only other point of data is it’s at 4.2% on October 1st
And you want to predict where that line goes to on December 31st. You would use a ruler to make an estimate to where the line would go, right? Like there’s no reason to assume it would rise from 0% to 4.2% in 9 months then stagnate for 3 months, right?
Do you define that as inflating the numbers? This Statistic graph has more in depth methodology that also estimated over 5% growth
It just kinda seems like you came into the thread with an axe to grind
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SOVIET DICTATOR “joe” biden is literally going to fukk ur mum like he FUCKS AMERICA!!!
be scared. i have received news that “an-tifa” super soldiers (???) are heading to your house through SECRET HAMAS TUNNELS
is this your last chnace to flee the countrY???
edit: Chinese bots are TRIGGERED.
are you trying to make yourself look like a joke here or do you really just not realize how fucking goofy that shit is
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nah you’re just racist as shit
It feels like you’ve been on Reddit for too long where no pro-China posts get upvoted, so you assume that’s the case for the rest of the internet.
Like it’s obviously bots, the CPC is paying money to host complex AI to argue with Redditors because they made U/spez fuck with the Reddit API in 2023 so all these sleeper bots from 2020 in a fringe leftist Reddit alternative with a fraction of the users.
Btw have you ever heard of the concept of Occam’s razor?
what the heck, that was 80%, I thought I read 8%?? That is so awful.
Is that instance called “lemmy.wtf” because that’s what people say when they read a comment from anyone who is from there?
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spoiler
spoiler
skibidi dop dop dop yes yes
i fukked ur mum last nite
Projection
Get’em boys! 🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖🤖
ew, who let the racist reddit goober in
this is why you’re my favorite
😄
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You’re an actual human shitstain.
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Immensely funny, actually. Have fun seething over losing to China in every proceeding decade of your life
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Holy shit, I’m literally shaking right now. I told my gf once and for all to meet at Wendy’s for a debate-date. With all that Destiny had taught me, I knew that I would easily destroy her leftist delusions. Capitalism vs communism in the marketplace of ideas. The first thing I did was bring out my Iphone 11 and show her the wikipedia article for “the Holodomor”. I started counting the causalities. That’s when she brought out her completely packed bag and started pulling out really thick books of theory. Marx, Engels, Lenin, and a bunch of russian and chinese names I can’t even remember. My hands started trembling (with anger) as I continued to scroll down the wikipedia page of “the Holodomor” on my Iphone 11. She basically said that it was all capitalist propaganda and exaggerated, and that communes like “Catalonela” or something were really successful. She kept quoting these books and shoving pages in my face. I told her to stop pivoting and gish-galloping but she just kept going. At this point the people at Wendy’s were pointing and chuckling, and someone went “How’s it going sport?” with a smirk. No one understood that she was acting in bad faith and was nitpicking and clearly biased. She hadn’t really responded to any of the points my wikipedia article was making. At some point I started stammering (because I was so mad at how illogical she was being) and she went “I think I’ve won” (nice gaslighting).
She asked if we should end it there or if I wanted to try at another debate. I smiled a confident smile and asked “Do you think incest is inherently unethical?” She said obviously, and I asked why, and she couldn’t come up with an argument because she went quiet for a few seconds. I continued, “There’s nothing inherently wrong with being attracted to your sister” (I am not). But then a guy next to us at Wendy’s broke into really loud laughter and basically said “Why are you with this dweeb?”
The guy had a really broad build and was wearing a rose t-shirt. He had a really thick and sturdy beard and a masculine pony tail. “You’re clearly more intelligent and hot than this guy. Take a look at this.” He showed my gf something on his twitter, and she giggled. I think it was a stupid commie meme or something. She basically ended it there and went with this broad and sturdy guy. On the way out I tripped on the doorstep and everyone laughed. She isn’t responding to my texts, and this was like five hours ago. What the fuck should I do debategang? Help.
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lol you’re a straight up goofball how do you think this sounds cool to literally anyone
You took the time to mull on it and then came back and edited this post, which I’m pretty sure was just the same very over used emoji you’ve plastered all over this thread, and you really think this proves I’m the one seething here?
Cope, loser.
Fascinating how all you are capable of saying in response to that whole comment is to think I am doing a bit when I mention I have two degrees.
No, its not a bit.
I seriously doubt anyone here in a chapo reddit could actually make a meaningful economic or political argument at this point.
oh sorry did I say reddit? I couldn’t tell I wasn’t on it what with the utter lack of meaningful or interesting discussion, and preponderance of memey edgy troll posters.
As usual, the cosplaying tankies in a ‘leftist’ community are amazingly hostile and disrespectful to anyone who says they are an anarchist.
I had been able to post for a week or so on another chapo reddit /until/ it became unable to avoid the astounding hypocrisy and wilful blindness that online MLs have regarding the horrible things done by authoritarian societies in the name of communism.
Good riddance to you idiot trolls.
Its baffling to me that chapo communities are nearly entirely ML edgelords. The chapo crew never suck off and worship Chinese Style ‘Communism’, but for some reason seemingly all online chapo communities are based around this principle.
cumquats
xi jinping has already been informed of your location and is coming for you. be scared!!!
He’s coming and he will photograph your hog!
yeah we already know you’re a nazi
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aww muffin, I see you’re still seething and coping that your color revolution failed 😂 https://redsails.org/another-view-of-tiananmen/
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Nah, I’m saying you’re a racist nazi who only deserves ridicule and contempt.
god damn you’re stupid
it’s ture, i was the tank man 1984
you have to be the biggest fucking loser IRL to end up posting like this
A screenshot of a Twitter post without any context from an account well known to simp for China
dumb and off topic who cares
Meanwhile their housing market, which they use as a massive investment vehicle, crumbles further.
legit tho. it’s a problem China is absolutely dealing with. the gdp for 2023 was still 5.2% even though gdp is stupid.
Who is Xu Juayin? Who is Jack Ma?
i’m too lazy to do an internet search but iirc Jack Ma is a rich asshole
Who is Xu Juayin?
Who is Jack Ma?
Guess nobody.
you’ve guessed correctly, now can you please fuck off
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I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
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The sky is blue, no shit.
Good thing it’s GDP per capita
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Hey bro, you’re replying here for like 4 hours already. Are you OK? Don’t forget to go outside or sleep, please, it’s really important for your health
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