White people will not be an underclass. Indigenous people have been and currently are highly oppressed and the point is reparations. I’m going to stop talking to you now, as you don’t seem in good faith, and I think you’ve said you aren’t even USian, so there’d be nothing to gain from convincing you.

We need some of this in the US.

I can suggest the Geopolítical economy report, Guerrilla history, Decolonized Buffalo, Turn Leftist, and also, maybe, Programmed to Chill (They’re a little too close to a red-brown alliance type TERF named Brigid from the probably cancelled podcast, but I have heard anything directly bad from Jimmy, I think he’s a Marxist, and he talks about parapolics and fascist history, if you want to listen start from the beginning).

Kaffe literally just said that settlers deserve democracy but we don’t have a right to a sovereign state. Just as in Palestine Israel has no right to exist. Jews can live in Palestine and have peacefully for millennia, but that doesn’t mean they can just start up a monopoly on violence (state) and start stealing land and killing people, neither should a Zionist entity exist at all after that one dissolves.

wtf. and are u seriously pretending u cant think of a single case where white people made treaties with indigenous people granting them certain places and then broke said treaties and took the land anyways and built cities there thats like the entire history of the usa.

What does that have to do with what I said? If you’re suggesting First Nations would subject colonizers to the same treatment they suffered under you’d be wrong, falling for the trap of colonial ideology and “white genocide” fear mongering.

As I already said, natives are not gone, they are just silenced and deprived of their rights. What is your alternative? A settler socialism where we continue to rule only we are internally more equal? In that case you may as well be an imperialist socdem. The “magic coalition” is possible. If you read the BAR articles about “black rage” you will understand the revolutionary potential of Black USians. Fanon shows us the most oppressed are the most willing to fight. The most oppressed here are Black people, colonized peoples, and immigrants. There will be settler allies, people know capitalism and settler colonialism is messed up, especially poor white people which are greater in number than most assume. I myself am a settler ally, willing to fight for decolonization.

They’re not saying that white people don’t deserve sovereignty or democracy, they are saying they don’t deserve to control this land just because they conquered it. Might does not make right. These people deserve reparations for the genocide inflicted upon them. We settlers should not have control over indigenous people and their land just because there are more of us. “To a former oppressor, equality feels like oppression.” You know how the Soviets got to implement their system in the land liberated from the Nazis? I think this situation is somewhat analogous. I have never heard a single indigenous person suggest displacing large amounts of non-natives. When the people at the Red Nation were asked about it they said they hadn’t even considered, people who ask questions like that are just afflicted with settler ideology. The same line of thinking that leads to great replacement theory. You say landback people want to take back whole cities, do you have any sources on this? All I can think of is First Nations people protesting the Dakota Access Pipeline as it runs through the land that should be theirs, is very damaging, and steals further from them. Another example of landback movements would be the “water is life” movement trying to take back water ways that are legally theirs to stop environmental degradation. I’m starting to think you’re debating in bad faith, with how little you seem to consider my points.

I think they’re just pointing out the absurdity and orientalism of suggesting that as yoga has been distorted and popularized in the West, Indians must be backward and not doing enough yoga, or at least not correctly (correct being the coopted version).

Stalin was a self hating Georgian.

Have you not be reading Kaffe’s comments? Settlers only live on a very small part of this continent. Very little of this land is actually in use beyond unsustainable resource extraction, yet indigenous people are barred from living the way they have for thousands of years. Even where non-native people do live a lot of the space is wasted. Around one fifth of cities is just parking. People are spread out in highly inefficient and environmentally damaging suburbs. If public transportation and better housing and agriculture is invested in we have plenty of space even for a decent expansion of settler population with good living standards without expanding. No one needs to be kicked out. It is the settler colonial mindset of our people killing and deporting others that makes us think that if the other side could they would. In fact that was part of the original genocidal alibi. We also get into “white genocide” and “great replacement theory” territory. They are not like us, they are better.

Maybe the question should have been. “Are you pale and the Nazis wouldn’t have killed you, or are you pale and they would have killed you?

Indigenous people didn’t go extinct or leave. They are alive across the continent in reservations and in settler communities. I’m not defending their right moralistically, it’s materially necessary. It is settlers and the horrible land use and environmental practices inherent to settler colonialism that is driving us into the ground. The only reason we’re still existing is because immense amounts of resources stolen from the global south. If we are going to face our great environmental challenges like climate change the people who have lived here for millennia who understand how this land works will need ownership of the resources.

Here’s the patsoc article i hyperlinked in the description: https://www.midwesternmarx.com/articles/in-defense-of-us-proletarian-patriotism-a-comradely-response-to-danny-haiphongs-marxist-polemic-on-patriotic-socialism-by-kayla-popuchet Here’s the thread someone linked to of the argument with MWM: https://twitter.com/RodericDay/status/1665715635093897217?s=20 Here’s the RBN stream with Eddie and Haz that many have gestured toward: https://www.youtube.com/live/GMat_oxfVzo?feature=share

Is this article mostly meant to help newbies?

I’m well. I just have a few annoying finals, but then I’ll be free during summer vacation.

This guy is a nightmare. If I were to say some things I’d say, if markets are so great and the state is so bad then why is Lybia not paradise right now? It’s got a fail state with no power and the market is so “free” that there’s an open air slave trade. If profits are a measure of how good an institution is for society then why aren’t libraries highly profitable? (Then, of course these types probably don’t even believe in libraries). If supply and demand is so great then what should the price be when there is equal supply and demand? You can measure quality of life, it can be shown through literacy, poverty, longevity, and other statistics, all of which are far better. If increasing internet access is good, who cares if the effort could have been used on something slightly better? I could go on but I won’t. Understand the desire to have the last word, but it’s not worth your time. Just say “you’re too dogmatic to consider anything I’ve written because you are trapped in a fantasyland divorced from reality. Thus, I will cease to discuss with you, as you are not worth the energy.” They’ll either cope with a couple more comments saying “what!? Debate me!” Or they’ll assume they won, and either way it should not matter to you.

That’s the book covered in the most recent season of Marx Madness. The podcast is great if you want a more in depth and radical version, though it’s over 30 hours in total.

They seem obnoxious. I could say how to address the arguments, but honestly you’re probably wasting your time debating a neoliberal deep in the comment section of a deleted post on r/India.

I highly suggest the Decolonized Buffalo, Red Nation, and Marx Madness podcasts.

As an operative for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, I cannot wait for the results!

It seems like most people especially patsocs ignore those who actually have revolutionary potential. We should be focused on organizing the colonized, the homeless, certain sections of the lumpen proletariat, and so on.

Exactly, most USians own nothing. If you’re lucky you own a house. Very few own large tracts of land. Land back means taking the land from the colonial government and bourgeois landlords and landholders like Bill Gates.

True, that’s why I think the six downvotes are funny. I imagine them saying “no, MWM is perfect!”

Midwestern Marx= Marxist publisher/think tank/content creators They’ve been known to platform patsocs. Carlos Garrido wrote the purity fetish and the crisis of western Marxism, which brushes off anti-Americanism and acknowledgement of labor aristocracy as things by puritans.

I don’t think patsocs fall into the “purity question” at all because they are simply neither communists nor leftists of any sort.

I think you’re right about criticizing them doesn’t make you a purist, but I think at least some of them do believe in communism or leftism, though they are a severe right deviation, not understanding dialectics, material conditions or the character of nationalism.

Tbf as others have said, they’re mostly crypto-patsocs. I’ve primarily seen the good takes on China and Venezuela and assumed they’re alright. When I watched the purity fetish interview there were some dog whistles, but I brushed them off. Only recently was I told of the “in defense of patriotism” article (from Marx madness), and I only happened upon this thread because I finally found Zikato’s Twitter.

I’m sure there’s a few kids who just wanna free Assange that these tailists can get on their side, but we shouldn’t abandon progressives.

I disagree, I’ve heard some decent comrades like Gerald Horne criticize J. Sakai. I do think it’s good to be very skeptical of people that who are suspiciously upfront about hating the book, or use it as a way to differentiate themselves from other MLs. Critics of Settlers are fine as long as they explicitly acknowledge the large part settler colonialism plays in North American material conditions, and/or don’t completely disregard the book.

Huh, I may have been misremembering, so idk. I’ve personally read a summary book of capital and grundrisse, and have a copy of vol 1, but am scared to open it.

Chapters, they said that’s where the essential stuff is if your not going to read the whole thing.

Did you read the comment? Russia didn’t do it for profit they did it for pure spite./s

maybe just give people housing?

Last I heard capital recommended the person said chapters 1-4.

I agree with most of the comments. It’s good to give constructive criticism but Rainer just likes to shit on everyone but his own crypto-patsoc group. He’s read his theory, but I’m not sure how much he understands the actual material conditions (not that I do much better).

That (the TYT clip) is where I got the idea for my comment. Y’know the caller was right, I was a progressive and now I’m a Marxist. Also, “China is capitalism on steroids” or is it socialism on steroids? Does not the government and private companies both do lots of stuff? If the US is already socialist then why are they calling for socialism?

When the government does enough stuff. The US government is the most communist bc of all the subsidies it gives to corporations, the large surveillance state, and the massive military.

True, I just want to have the last word. Should I stick to “you’re dogmatic and unMarxist and it would not be productive for me to waste my energy on you?”

I don’t consider them to the left of us either. I can respect an anarchist who is willing to work with us, but most are just radical liberals. They see us to the “right” of them because they think “authoritarianism” is a right wing characteristic. Like the right libertarians whose political spectrum is lib to auth rather than left to right.

I usually think of ultra-leftists as people who are at least somewhat idealist and consider themselves to the left of ML (the type who call us revisionist or authoritarian). The ideologies I’d consider Ultras most of the time are Trotskyist who are idealist in that they think we can have world revolution in one go, and anything less isn’t internationalist enough, Leftcoms who look for the ideal revolution where everything was pure and Marxist, Maoists who are sectarian and look for perfect ideologically revolutions as opposed to what actually works and has a positive impact, and anarchists whose whole ideology is based on a blanket opposition to doing anything because other people tell them to, and think that organizations are too authoritarian, so we just need a spontaneous revolt that will magically get rid of all governments and everything will be fine.

I literally just did that.