🏴☠️#USEmpire 🍔🦠#USA
WARNING 18+ Adult content & US racism.
Perhaps the most depraved, racist & disgusting thing we have ever reported:
Sick Americans are making porn based on the US government & ETIM claim of genocide & concentration camps in Xinjiang, China.
Nothing more needs saying from us, just look at this degenerate crap.
🥭@mangopress
I know I’ll get downvoted but… I really, really don’t mind porn. At all. And it isn’t because I’m Brazilian.
My problem is that porn industry is pretty much pimping. I believe if a bunch of exhibitionists wanna make a video or a picture (or a drawing) and upload it for free, there’s no problem in that.
Porn / filmed rape is a multi-billion dollar industry, 99.9999% of it is made for a profit. As materialists, we don’t focus on what-if scenarios, but how the industry currently functions.
Good point. I’m all for criminalizing production of pornography as long as there’s a profit incentive (at least when it involves actual people; in theory, I’m fine with drawn pornography, although… there’s a lot of shit that I’d argue should be illegal there too). Of course, the producers should be the ones receiving punishment, not the sex workers themselves
Is it really a large percentage? If so, it’s a bit murkier for me – if that’s the only way they have to pay their bills (which is a bigger problem in and of itself, of course), I can’t just say that there should be a blanket ban until every sex worker is provided with a reasonable alternative job, guaranteed housing, etc. (which is basically guaranteed not to happen under capitalism)
Edit: in addition, if you’re talking about OnlyFans and the like, the workers don’t receive the full profits, which is at least as much of a problem as for other types of labour
I honestly don’t know the exact percentage, only that the workers on markets like OnlyFans and various cam sites are, from my own personal experience, mostly one-person or one-couple gigs. And indeed, those markets do take a cut. But we’ve already seen an example of the uproar sex workers gave when it looked like OnlyFans was going to stop supporting adult content. So, “just get rid of OnlyFans” isn’t likely to be a benefit to those sex workers.
I can’t just say that there should be a blanket ban until every sex worker is provided with a reasonable alternative job, guaranteed housing, etc. (which is basically guaranteed not to happen under capitalism)
Unfortunately, that’s not guaranteed to happen under socialism either. There are several existing socialist states that outlaw sex work, despite (supposedly) eradicating the coercive nature of work under capitalism. In such a free society, why shouldn’t anyone be allowed to put a price on their consent for sex, as they would put a price on their consent for any other form of labor they could provide in their economy? Are these workers genuinely liberated of their previous forms of oppression or not?
And if they haven’t entirely eradicated the coercive nature of work within their state; if other axes of oppression are still festering --and thus, work is coercive within that state-- then what happens when the state’s workers choose sex work over the “alternative” job that may be (or may not be) available? Because that is the material reality of the world we live in now. Millions of sex workers --almost entirely women-- are “opting” to engage in coercive sex work. And I’d venture that most of them would not continue to do so, that most of them would leave, if better alternatives presented themselves.
But if you don’t have a viable alternative for them to exit to, then you aren’t prepared to abolish the sex trade. If you don’t have an alternative, then you’re not protecting workers. You’re protecting your image. The worker knows best. If there is a better alternative, they will exit, and it is your moral imperative to build that alternative. But if they’d rather engage in coercive sex work than coercive factory work, then that is their unfortunate so-called “choice” to make, and the state wagging their finger and saying “no, you must report to the factory instead,” leaves a distinctly patriarchal and Calvinist taste in my mouth.
I can think of a few reasons why AES countries would outlaw sex work:
They’re in a very early stage of socialism, so there are still many people who work for private businesses and not everyone is guaranteed a home regardless of their job (e.g. China, AFAICT)
They had a severe problem with prostitution pre-revolution and don’t want to risk that happening again
They live in a largely capitalist world (i.e. every country) and don’t want people to be tricked into doing sex work
They ban pornography as a whole because they believe it is detrimental to the mental health of their citizens, which means that sex work is also prohibited
Obviously, there’s no simple answer here. If there was a worker-owned alternative to OnlyFans, that would at least be a better solution as long as there’s a market economy
“Valid”? Whether or not I agree, it’s not up to me or you to determine what’s a “valid” reason for an entire country. I doubt the CPC decided to ban pornography without serious consideration.
If it involves even a little money, it isn’t consensual. Tons of people on onlyfans depend on getting men off in order to pay their rent. That is patriarchal sexual exploitation no matter how you package it.
Yeah, but the chances of reaching that level are the same as your chances of becoming a pro athlete lol. The majority of onlyfans creators make less than minimum wage
Not saying OnlyFans isn’t like a pimp but at least with onlyfans they have a choice to make porn and can stop if they want to, without coming in direct danger of sexual assault. Porn will never disappear, so we have to find more ethical ways of producing porn than the porn industry, and I think the solution lies with people producing their own porn
All forms of pornography commodify sex, albeit to a lesser extent than straight up prostitution. The overwhelming majority of pornographic content is produced not because of some artistic vision, but to exploit people’s bodies for profit, in the most literal sense. It preys on vulnerable people who have very few options to make a living, and actively promotes violent and harmful sexual behavior.
I mean yeah you are right, but the point is pretty much noone does porn for free, they do it coerced by capitalism. Would someone do it willingly without coercion under socialism/communism? Hard to say, i personally dont think so. Nevertheless, that is a hypothetical scenario that doesnt apply to current reality, since pretty much noone does it willingly. Thus, in the current reality, porn is inherently exploitative.
Yes! Yes! I do see the fact it’s an industry as a problem. But I’m not really talking about what-if scenarios. I used to do that stuff for free. Maybe I’m a pervert, maybe I just don’t see sexuality as taboo. Neverthless, when people usually ban pornography, it goes as well for stuff like drawings and people who simply like to show themselves off.
Basically, I do not like money involved (I might overlook when it’s stuff like drawn commissions - I see it as no different than an artist who charges to do any form of art), but meanwhile, I see no issue in someone getting their rocks off and sharing so like-minded folks can see it.
Because sex and intimacy are touchy subjects that are tightly coupled with morality, are historically intertwined with multiple forms of both oppression and liberation, and not everyone agrees on the boundaries of what can or should be exchangeable through trade or money. Threads on this topic are always heated and spicy.
IMO (even though i believe in abolishing the sex trade) too often communists critique the notion of “sex work” from a moralistic position despite claiming not to.
There will always be exhibitionists. There will always be people who view sex and fulfilling fetishes as a service. As a species our views on sex will always be evolving, and different nations’ cultures have different attitudes on public sexuality. This might be an unpopular opinion here, but I don’t think communists should be making any puritanical moral judgements on sex exhibitionism that we then try to apply as some universal expectation for any future communist government to meet. Ultimately, those historically most affected by the sex trade – non-bourgeois women, lgbtq, and youth – should be the loudest voices dictating the consensus of how any particular society legally approaches this topic. Because the expectations will differ from society to society depending on that society’s own social norms.
The problem is the exchange of sex for survival is an incredibly coercive relationship. That’s true of any exchange of “labor” under capitalism, but for sex workers who are commodifying their own reproductive health and gender it’s even more so. Our task should to remove the coercive nature of sexual relationships under capitalism.
I know I’ll get downvoted but… I really, really don’t mind porn. At all. And it isn’t because I’m Brazilian. My problem is that porn industry is pretty much pimping. I believe if a bunch of exhibitionists wanna make a video or a picture (or a drawing) and upload it for free, there’s no problem in that.
Porn / filmed rape is a multi-billion dollar industry, 99.9999% of it is made for a profit. As materialists, we don’t focus on what-if scenarios, but how the industry currently functions.
Good point. I’m all for criminalizing production of pornography as long as there’s a profit incentive (at least when it involves actual people; in theory, I’m fine with drawn pornography, although… there’s a lot of shit that I’d argue should be illegal there too). Of course, the producers should be the ones receiving punishment, not the sex workers themselves
And if those are the same person? A good chunk of for-profit pornography is individual people producing and selling on their own.
Is it really a large percentage? If so, it’s a bit murkier for me – if that’s the only way they have to pay their bills (which is a bigger problem in and of itself, of course), I can’t just say that there should be a blanket ban until every sex worker is provided with a reasonable alternative job, guaranteed housing, etc. (which is basically guaranteed not to happen under capitalism)
Edit: in addition, if you’re talking about OnlyFans and the like, the workers don’t receive the full profits, which is at least as much of a problem as for other types of labour
I honestly don’t know the exact percentage, only that the workers on markets like OnlyFans and various cam sites are, from my own personal experience, mostly one-person or one-couple gigs. And indeed, those markets do take a cut. But we’ve already seen an example of the uproar sex workers gave when it looked like OnlyFans was going to stop supporting adult content. So, “just get rid of OnlyFans” isn’t likely to be a benefit to those sex workers.
Unfortunately, that’s not guaranteed to happen under socialism either. There are several existing socialist states that outlaw sex work, despite (supposedly) eradicating the coercive nature of work under capitalism. In such a free society, why shouldn’t anyone be allowed to put a price on their consent for sex, as they would put a price on their consent for any other form of labor they could provide in their economy? Are these workers genuinely liberated of their previous forms of oppression or not?
And if they haven’t entirely eradicated the coercive nature of work within their state; if other axes of oppression are still festering --and thus, work is coercive within that state-- then what happens when the state’s workers choose sex work over the “alternative” job that may be (or may not be) available? Because that is the material reality of the world we live in now. Millions of sex workers --almost entirely women-- are “opting” to engage in coercive sex work. And I’d venture that most of them would not continue to do so, that most of them would leave, if better alternatives presented themselves.
But if you don’t have a viable alternative for them to exit to, then you aren’t prepared to abolish the sex trade. If you don’t have an alternative, then you’re not protecting workers. You’re protecting your image. The worker knows best. If there is a better alternative, they will exit, and it is your moral imperative to build that alternative. But if they’d rather engage in coercive sex work than coercive factory work, then that is their unfortunate so-called “choice” to make, and the state wagging their finger and saying “no, you must report to the factory instead,” leaves a distinctly patriarchal and Calvinist taste in my mouth.
I can think of a few reasons why AES countries would outlaw sex work:
Obviously, there’s no simple answer here. If there was a worker-owned alternative to OnlyFans, that would at least be a better solution as long as there’s a market economy
Literally none of these reasons are valid
“Valid”? Whether or not I agree, it’s not up to me or you to determine what’s a “valid” reason for an entire country. I doubt the CPC decided to ban pornography without serious consideration.
I agree, but I do think that porn made by sex workers themselves like amateur porn and onlyfans is okay
If it involves even a little money, it isn’t consensual. Tons of people on onlyfans depend on getting men off in order to pay their rent. That is patriarchal sexual exploitation no matter how you package it.
Why? In what way is onlyfans different from a pimp? In what way are these sex workers completely uncoerced by capitalism to perform or else starve?
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another one for the wall
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Yeah, but the chances of reaching that level are the same as your chances of becoming a pro athlete lol. The majority of onlyfans creators make less than minimum wage
Not saying OnlyFans isn’t like a pimp but at least with onlyfans they have a choice to make porn and can stop if they want to, without coming in direct danger of sexual assault. Porn will never disappear, so we have to find more ethical ways of producing porn than the porn industry, and I think the solution lies with people producing their own porn
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All forms of pornography commodify sex, albeit to a lesser extent than straight up prostitution. The overwhelming majority of pornographic content is produced not because of some artistic vision, but to exploit people’s bodies for profit, in the most literal sense. It preys on vulnerable people who have very few options to make a living, and actively promotes violent and harmful sexual behavior.
The problem is that there IS a porn INDUSTRY that commodities bodies
I mean yeah you are right, but the point is pretty much noone does porn for free, they do it coerced by capitalism. Would someone do it willingly without coercion under socialism/communism? Hard to say, i personally dont think so. Nevertheless, that is a hypothetical scenario that doesnt apply to current reality, since pretty much noone does it willingly. Thus, in the current reality, porn is inherently exploitative.
As an answer to all arguments in reply to mine:
Yes! Yes! I do see the fact it’s an industry as a problem. But I’m not really talking about what-if scenarios. I used to do that stuff for free. Maybe I’m a pervert, maybe I just don’t see sexuality as taboo. Neverthless, when people usually ban pornography, it goes as well for stuff like drawings and people who simply like to show themselves off.
Basically, I do not like money involved (I might overlook when it’s stuff like drawn commissions - I see it as no different than an artist who charges to do any form of art), but meanwhile, I see no issue in someone getting their rocks off and sharing so like-minded folks can see it.
Why the hell is this unpopular? It’s a very reasonable take.
Because sex and intimacy are touchy subjects that are tightly coupled with morality, are historically intertwined with multiple forms of both oppression and liberation, and not everyone agrees on the boundaries of what can or should be exchangeable through trade or money. Threads on this topic are always heated and spicy.
IMO (even though i believe in abolishing the sex trade) too often communists critique the notion of “sex work” from a moralistic position despite claiming not to.
There will always be exhibitionists. There will always be people who view sex and fulfilling fetishes as a service. As a species our views on sex will always be evolving, and different nations’ cultures have different attitudes on public sexuality. This might be an unpopular opinion here, but I don’t think communists should be making any puritanical moral judgements on sex exhibitionism that we then try to apply as some universal expectation for any future communist government to meet. Ultimately, those historically most affected by the sex trade – non-bourgeois women, lgbtq, and youth – should be the loudest voices dictating the consensus of how any particular society legally approaches this topic. Because the expectations will differ from society to society depending on that society’s own social norms.
The problem is the exchange of sex for survival is an incredibly coercive relationship. That’s true of any exchange of “labor” under capitalism, but for sex workers who are commodifying their own reproductive health and gender it’s even more so. Our task should to remove the coercive nature of sexual relationships under capitalism.
That is a great answer. And I say morality here is formed by religion, which an alarming percentage of people here are part of.
Thanks, comrade ^^