It’s very common to see on the internet people listing supposed deaths that happened in socialist countries, and normally because of “political assassinations” and “starvations”.

I know there are some lists about United States atrocities but do we have lists about captalism in general (and unlike theirs lists, with actual sources?)

  • ☭CommieWolf☆
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    2 years ago

    Seeing as how the average reactionary method to measure deaths caused by socialism is “Every death in a socialist country, is caused by socialism”, we can therefore assume every death in a capitalist country is caused by capitalism. Since we already know the total death toll of socialism is roughly 100 million (according to most reactionary sources), we can therefore assume that if you took the total number of deaths that happened in the 20th century and subtract 100 million, we should get our answer, since the world at this time is split generally between socialist and capitalist societies.

    General estimates say that around 5.5 billion people died in total in the 20th century, so take away the 100 million caused by socialism, and viola, your capitalist death toll amounts to around 5.4 Billion deaths.

    /s

    In all seriousness this sort of counting kills caused by how society is organized is going to be near impossible to calculate accurately considering the vagueness that comes with such a question.

    • redshiftedbrazilianOP
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      2 years ago

      Lol this subtracting thing ia actually a really funny way to call out their dishonesty when calculating deaths

  • I don’t have any specific links beyond the repo in the sidebar at the moment, but if we used the same standards as the anticommunist lists, the list for capitalism would include billions of people. If we just use categories that are clearly attributable to capitalism (far above the standards of organizations like the VoCMF):

    • those who were denied life-saving medical treatment because they couldn’t afford it
    • those who starved to death because they couldn’t afford food
    • those who died because they couldn’t afford housing (e.g. from cold or diseases)
    • those who died as a result of overworking in capitalist countries
    • slaves in capitalist countries (mainly Amerika) who were murdered or died for various preventable reasons
    • those who died because of imperialist wars (direct murders and the aftermath, including refugees caused by the wars)
    • those who died due to the effects of sanctions
    • those who died during and after an imperialist coup who wouldn’t have died otherwise
    • etc.

    I don’t think it’s possible to have a comprehensive list, but I know that there are at least estimates for things like the war on Iraq and the genocidal blockade against Cuba. If we include general suffering and not just deaths, the list would be many times longer

    • redshiftedbrazilianOP
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      2 years ago

      Do you think that it would be easier to start off the list from imperialist wars like from Iraq?

      • knfrmity
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        2 years ago

        I’ll have to look for the source and number again but I remember reading a rough estimate of that somewhere. The US interventions abroad just in the 21st century are responsible for a very large number of deaths and further suffering.

  • EnchantedWhetstones
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    2 years ago

    https://dessalines.github.io/essays/us_atrocities.html

    Recently I was thinking about how we need more stuff like this but for the old colonial empires that went and did WWI. (Worth mentioning the only ones that have decolonized since then are Russia and Japan, & the latter is a US vassal in NATO. http://archive.today/2023.02.18-025337/https://www.chathamhouse.org/2022/06/nato-knows-asia-vital-protecting-global-security (Aus, NZ, SK, and Japan are functionally NATO now. Also, while you’re here, please note that article 5 has recently been completely thrown out the window as of the last NATO shindig in Brussels.)

    Also we need a rundown of the times the IMF and World Bank have put the screws on countries.

    A bulleted list like this is helpful because people really need and want an outline.

    • redshiftedbrazilianOP
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      2 years ago

      This is why I asked. I think we spend so much time defending Stalin and others from their lies and its tiring. Not only that anything we point out abt capitalism is disregarded as “whataboutism”.

      So recently I was discussing socialism with a dumb ancap on the internet and instead of trying to praise it I simply said socialism was better because capitalism is a murder machine, and the conversation was much better. Its freeing to discuss capitalism for what it is, and bonus thing is that whenever he talked anything about Stalin now it was my turn to tell them that was “whataboutism” and simply refuse to discuss any possible negative thing about socialism.

      Also bonus point bc calling and ancap a dictator apologist and genocide denier while they struggled to justify Hayeks support of Pinochets Chile was funny af

      Of course in real life you dont want to accuse people of anything and rather have an honest discussion with them, but in the internet is not about convincing the other person (this simply doesnt happen) but about the other people who are only reading the arguments. Its “propaganda”.

      I think people will be much more receptive to our viewpoint if we focus less on denying their lies and more on pointing out Capitalist crimes amd failures, thats why I wanted to know better if we have this kind of thing organized and documented ready

      • EnchantedWhetstones
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        2 years ago

        Going the offensive is crucial I agree. Yep I have a terrible attention span and a job but I should be able to crack out a document that’s digestible to someone like me in due time.

                • SovereignState
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                  2 years ago

                  A certain Hoxhaist was involved, seemingly in good faith at one point, then tried to instigate a coup against the leadership after shit fell apart for them here. The chad Stalinists in charge quickly rectified the issue, from my understanding, though.

  • SovereignState
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    2 years ago

    Unfortunately I can’t offer a Black Book of Capitalism as it were, however regarding the lists of U.S. atrocities, for any comrades reading who are unsure about the misadventures the Amerikan empire has gotten itself into:

    Rogue State and Killing Hope by William Blum are must-reads. They’re accessible and easy-to-read. The only reason I would cautious against reading is if witnessing the most vile, inhuman information imaginable could send you tailspinning into near-psychosis, like it did me. Be careful, but if you want to be a well-educated anti-imperialist, pick them up. Rogue State is a comprehensive history up to the early 2000s of U.S. terrorist actions worldwide, while Killing Hope is more specifically about the U.S. intervening against popular people’s movements, notably many would-have-been communist revolutions.

    You can find both online as free PDFs with a quick search. The CIA even graciously (mockingly) hosts Rogue State on its website, with a foreword thanking “Sheikh Blum, love Osama” or some other such character assassination filth.

  • knfrmity
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    2 years ago

    There’s a rough analysis done on the death count of the USA on Monthly Review. There may be some more literature in their archives dealing with other capitalist countries.

    This article deals with U.S. imperialism since World War 2. It is critical to acknowledge that U.S. imperialism emanates both ideologically and materially from the crime of colonialism on this continent which has killed over 100 million indigenous people and approximately 150 million African people over the past 500 years.

    The exact death toll of U.S. imperialism is both staggering and impossible to know. What we do know is that since World War 2, U.S. imperialism has killed at least 36 million people globally in Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, the Congo, Chile, El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Haiti, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, Chad, Libya, East Timor, Grenada, Honduras, Iran, Pakistan, Panama, the Philippines, Sudan, Greece, Yugoslavia, Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo, Somalia, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay, and Palestine (see Appendix).

    https://mronline.org/2022/06/06/mapping-u-s-imperialism/

    • bobs_guns
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      2 years ago

      from the article,

      Any Holocaust deniers or Revisionists, I’m sorry. I’m not taking a stand either way

      maybe good is too strong a word for this analysis.

      • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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        2 years ago

        I just meant the analysis of capitalism part, not the preamble bs obviously. Sadly that kind of shit is what makes it possible to share these kinds of articles with people in the mainstream. Gotta have a dose of that bothsideism.

      • redshiftedbrazilianOP
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        2 years ago

        Yeah that intro is horrible but maybe we can take something from there and put in a better post