u/Jerry_the_Goat - originally from r/GenZhou
You’re not alone, this report says that more than 40% of ppl worldwide suffers from some sort of gastrointestinal disorder (tummy aches). The solution to this is higher fibre intake, increase it slowly, incrementally and from variety of sources (fruits with their skin, vegetables, legumes, grains, nuts and those fibre breakfast cereals, you know which one).

Every person on plant-based diet went through this unless they ate that way since being born. For my bowels it took them about 3 weeks to adjust to new diet, grow new gut microbes that feed on plant matter not dairy and meat, stop gurgling after I eat a carrot etc.

If you eat enough fibre and still experience intestinal problems then that could be the result of the stress in your life and with that I cannot help.

u/Jerry_the_Goat - originally from r/GenZhou
You asked a vegan for their opinion on lab-grown meat so they’ll answer in that context, from the perspective of a vegan talking to non-vegan. You may simply not be aware but vegans are not against eating flesh-like substances but against commodification of animals for the sake of food, clothing, testing, entertainment etc. If lab-grown meat would be developed with assistance of consenting human test subjects then I wouldn’t see anything wrong with it. But rn the most advanced procedures requires fresh samples of cell tissue from live animals that’ll have to be kept in captivity ie: be commodified. Just as I wouldn’t want to be held captive as a test subject against my will I won’t endorse that way of development of lab-grown meat. If it would be cruelty-free then I’ll be all for it. I’m type I diabetic and I’d happily lend my cell tissue to develop lab-grown pancreas. And even more so if it wouldn’t be developed for profit incentive

Not that my opinion or “voting with my wallet” would ever matter btw.

u/explorerofbells - originally from r/GenZhou
We don’t need to lick the boot of meat capital for a magic new commodity. We need economic change, and it doesn’t come about by voting with our wallets.

We do not need meat to thrive. The only true way to achieve animal liberation is through class struggle. Don’t fall for lib greenwashing.

u/explorerofbells - originally from r/GenZhou
It’s no more “realistic” than Tesla, or any other green capitalists, solving the climate crisis. In fact, I’d consider it more idealist to propose that animal liberation will be achieved through enriching meat capitalists.

Neither the owners and manufacturers of plant-based meat alternatives nor a large part of the ruling class (such as those who meet annually at the World Economic Forum) see the production of meat and meat alternatives as a contradiction.

The majority of them consider plant-based meat merely a supplementary income that will not stop the growth of the traditional meat industry. It is in their benefit to sell people on the idea that capitalism can supposedly be “more animal friendly” and “greener” and that if you just change your lifestyle, you can make all the difference.

These companies are not on a noble mission to save the world. They simply want to make a profit from another commodity. In business speak, it’s called “portfolio diversification,” ie expanding revenue sources.

If we really want to break the power of meat capital, we need to intervene in the ownership and production conditions of the meat industry. Again, social change, not technocratic.

Edit: and also, supporting lib greenwashing solutions in a leftist sub seems more like a self-own to me, tbh

u/ButtigiegMineralMap - originally from r/GenZhou
I agree, even if it isn’t ideal, there’s too many people dedicated to eating what they perceive to be meat

u/courtneygoe - originally from r/GenZhou
Militant vegans are just as bad as anarchists. They care about utopian ideas instead of reality, instead of real solutions to problems, and I literally would die in the world they want to create unless I could at least have a chicken for eggs, and then I’d be severely underweight and undernourished. It isn’t just me though, MILLIONS of people have severe digestive issues. A lot of people have a worse time than I do, and can digest even fewer foods than I can. That isn’t even getting into efficiency in production of food, we don’t have the land or technology to grow enough food for an entirely vegan world.

u/LordOfThe_FLIES - originally from r/GenZhou
Lab grown meat still commodifies animals and their flesh, even if it’s in a roundabout way.

u/explorerofbells - originally from r/GenZhou
I think the technology is interesting, but the problem is that with cell cultures, you must perform a biopsy to retrieve the cells.

I don’t reject the covid vaccines, and neither do most vegans, even though they are tested on animals, because vaccines are absolutely necessary for public health and save millions of lives. They didn’t need to be tested on animals, there’s other ways, but our system isn’t there yet. (It should be noted that covid, like most zoonotic viruses, is caused by animal exploitation.)

Lab grown meat, on the other hand, is not necessary. No one needs to wait for this technology to go vegan. To put palate pleasure over another’s consent to their bodily autonomy is oppressive. Would you justify caging and doing biopsies on humans without their consent if human flesh tasted nice?

u/explorerofbells - originally from r/GenZhou
Good grief, I’m against fake lib “solutions” to problems that can only be solved through changing our economic configuration. I oppose lab grown meat on the basis that it is counter-productive to the goal of liberating animals, because it exploits animals, because it is a complicated and unnecessary reform, not on the basis of it being “science.”

I oppose it in the same way I oppose Teslas as a serious solution to climate change, although I’m sure many Musk fanboys will tell me that to oppose Tesla is to oppose “progress” and EV “science.” I should just as well be happy that capitalists are painting themselves green with far off targets of carbon neutrality, as if the earth isn’t burning right now, as if the clock isn’t ticking.

You are here promoting liberal reforms as a way to achieve liberation, cynically of course, because you don’t even want animal liberation.

Although with 1488 being in your username, I shouldn’t be surprised.

u/clydethefrog - originally from r/GenZhou
This is a whole other discussion, I was just responding to the labgrown meat standard reply the user was making.

But I can’t resist responding to your other standard reply about B12 - the big majority of animals is also injected / fed with B12 before they are slaughtered for meat. Industrial production of vitamin B12 is achieved through fermentation of selected microorganisms. It can easily be added to grains, just like was decided to add iodine to salt and bread to battle iodine deficiency. Sounds more cost effective than using animal farming as vessels, no?

(the “natural” way to get B12 was from the soil - due to declining soil quality from intensive over-farming the soil is deficient in cobalt, which you need for animal’s guts to make B12. So in an ironic negative feedback loop, the more heavy animal agriculture to get your B12, the less natural B12!)

I am vegan and Marxist but I would never make a vegan diet the first step in improving the material condition of the people around me, once again, just responding to the reply about lab-grown meat. Just as probably a lot of public transport supporters cannot resist responding to idiots claiming the hyperloop is going to solve transport issues or ecologists that sigh every time someone mentions the magical CO2 remover that doesn’t exist.

u/gaygirlgg - originally from r/GenZhou
Yes, I fully agree.

But that’s a strawman of the position.

The vegan, anti-colonial, anti-imperialist position is a critique of that tendency. This is from black vegan and indigenous vegan perspectives. It is the opposite of comparing people to animals.

It would be absurd to hear someone be like “wow I felt like an animal in a cage when I was in prison!” and someone to say “wow swetty, I can’t believe you just compared people to animals!”. Or to say “Black people have been called apes by racists” and then have someone call you racist.

Many people can’t conceive of the idea that if people didn’t mistreat animals, that people would be treated better. This is due to the proliferation of colonial and capitalist ideology. If there were no devaluation of animals, there wouldn’t be a devaluation of people through animalization.

For instance, if you glance at the wikipedia of the book proposed in the book club, it mentions Descartes, who believed animals didn’t feel pain, they just had “response to stimulus” as they didn’t have minds. Black people have been dehumanized through race science for centuries after Descartes. There is a still widespread perception in the medical field that black people do not feel pain as much as other races. For this reason, black people are under-prescribed pain medication.

There is also an idea along the same lines of black people being animalistic, and therefore of reduced will/agency, so a disconnect between black people’s thoughts, emotions, and reality. “Instinctual responses to stimuli”. This connects to why black people are fatally medically neglected (“They are just making a big deal about it”).

u/warender99 - originally from r/GenZhou
I think you should read the literature they provided. It’s not too long and greatly clarifies what is being said as well as addressing all of your counterpoints. Seriously I did not go into it thinking it would change my views, but the fact is it is a well put together, solid argument that rejects idealist utopian veganism and analyzes it through the lense of historical materialism. What is funny about it is how well it addresses everything you are saying here. Same for me before I read it. You don’t have to agree with op, but at least do the homework. We are all about education here I should hope.

u/courtneygoe - originally from r/GenZhou
So basically, some of them don’t believe it. Others just haven’t looked into it and it “seems” right to them.

u/courtneygoe - originally from r/GenZhou
They’re just as bad as anarchists, and honestly I think the really militant vegans are a three letter type deal. At least it started that way. Find a boogeyman other than capitalism, see who takes the bait and is distracted from something useful like Marxism.

u/Lord_M_G_Albo - originally from r/GenZhou
The highest vegan and vegetarian populations are at Asia-Pacific, East and North Africa. Even though few forbid animal consumption, many cultures across the history condemned killing of animals as impure and to be avoided as much as possible. In fact, taking away China, most of world meat consumption happen at Western countries. While it is true that vegan activism as we know it started among petite burgeois English people, to act as animal consumption has been a given in human history and across the world is very chauvinist - as if Third World inhabitants are savages living in “kill or to be killed” mood to survive, and only civilization can save them and give the conditions to stop consume meat.

[deleted] - originally from r/GenZhou
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