u/explorerofbells - originally from r/GenZhou
Hey comrades,
I’m a part of a discord server called Vegan Theory Club that’s run by mix of leftist tendencies. It’s a theory club that’s explicitly leftist and vegan, but we talk about more than just the book of the month.
We just started reading Eternal Treblinka - Our Treatment of Animals and the Holocaust by Charles Patterson, which we voted for. (Our last book was Kapital.) Right now is the perfect time to join!
We’d love to have you!
u/ThewFflegyy - originally from r/GenZhouis it not a little idealist to oppose the most realistic alternative? there are a lot of people who are not going to want to give up meat. opposing lab grown meat seems like kind of a self own tbh.
u/explorerofbells - originally from r/GenZhouIt’s no more “realistic” than Tesla, or any other green capitalists, solving the climate crisis. In fact, I’d consider it more idealist to propose that animal liberation will be achieved through enriching meat capitalists.
Neither the owners and manufacturers of plant-based meat alternatives nor a large part of the ruling class (such as those who meet annually at the World Economic Forum) see the production of meat and meat alternatives as a contradiction.
The majority of them consider plant-based meat merely a supplementary income that will not stop the growth of the traditional meat industry. It is in their benefit to sell people on the idea that capitalism can supposedly be “more animal friendly” and “greener” and that if you just change your lifestyle, you can make all the difference.
These companies are not on a noble mission to save the world. They simply want to make a profit from another commodity. In business speak, it’s called “portfolio diversification,” ie expanding revenue sources.
If we really want to break the power of meat capital, we need to intervene in the ownership and production conditions of the meat industry. Again, social change, not technocratic.
Edit: and also, supporting lib greenwashing solutions in a leftist sub seems more like a self-own to me, tbh
u/ThewFflegyy - originally from r/GenZhouno, a lot of modernized countries heavily utilize public transit. the comparison to public transit is really not apt. im with you on the green capitalism bit. the two really arnt equatable though.
I agree that on our current trajectory plant based meat will not supplant real meat. that does not mean that it cant. look, I never claimed any corporation was on a noble mission to save the world. im simply saying that lab grown meats present a viable alternative.
I feel like you are strawmannirg me/misunderstanding me, not sure which. I also did not say our aim should not be squarely on capital. im merely saying that even under a revolutionary state the entire population going vegan is going to be a really, really hard sell. lab grown meats present a viable alternative that should not be thrown out simply because the people who developed it weren’t aiming to save the world.
u/warender99 - originally from r/GenZhouI disagree. Your analysis comes from the viewpoint that socialism and veganism are necessarily intertwined. They are not, and the consumption of meat predates capitalism by a large span of time. Without making a idealist morality based argument about the consumption of meat irregardless to the means in which said meat is acquired, what reason do you see that necessitates the entire eradication of meat/animal product consumption?
u/explorerofbells - originally from r/GenZhouHow about I just link you to some theory?
https://www.hexbear.net/post/113923
u/warender99 - originally from r/GenZhou“Woah I’m not reading that crap, sum it up in one word!”
-Bender bending Rodriguez
Nah but for real appreciate the link. Looks like a decent read, I’ll return here once I’ve finished. I also don’t want to get lumped in with the other people with the whole elon musk green capitalism type thing. My angle is different from theirs. Much less about the proposed alternatives within capitalism and much more about what diets Looks like in a socialist society compared to today. It is obvious that we need to drastically reduce our meat consumption for the benefit of the environment, im just not quite sold on the complete veganism angle.
u/calciumpotass - originally from r/GenZhouDon’t worry none of it addresses artificial meat
u/warender99 - originally from r/GenZhouI think the point the are trying to make can be justly summed with the following quote from the literature provided
It isn’t so much that artificially grown meat could not replace meat, but rather that as a part of our struggle for liberation we must logically include Animals. Indeed to think about it from a moralism perspective I now understand is to think of it from the wrong angle entirely. It is easy to mistake all vegans/animal liberation activists as adhering to idealist tendencies. The literature does a pretty good job distinguishing itself from this and providing a historical materialist perspective on the matter.
Everything we do must be grounded in reality, lest we become dogmatic, idealist fools. It is no lie that the meat industry is responsible for massive damage to the earth. It’s abolition therefore is necessary for the preservation of our home planet. Artificially grown meat could not hope to replace it in the short or even medium term. There is no argument within the paper that necessitates the utter abandonment of that possibility, but I do think it is easy to understand the social change of vegan diets is clearly the better, more feasible solution. Alternatives to meat therefore would not likely by pursued by a wholly vegan society. That is to say if I woke up in the morning and the whole world was a United socialist project, it would necessarily be an important task of that project to convert the existing food industry into a, like the quote says, “ecologically sustainable, vegan, and socially planned” one.
u/calciumpotass - originally from r/GenZhouI appreciate that you’re trying to take that lazy argument in good-faith. But honestly, if lab-grown meat has no hope to replace the cattle industry in the short or medium term, veganism has no hope of converting the majority of the population for the foreseeable future
u/warender99 - originally from r/GenZhouHey big thanks for the reading material. It certainly helped my understanding of how veganism and Marxism intertwine. Quite a perspective changing read. It’s always crazy to me when I read something that so perfectly demonstrates the ideas in my head. From the addressing of the ideological strains of veganism as it exists today, to the synthesis of the two using historical materialism. It addressed any and all counterpoints I had as I read it. Well put together I must say.
u/explorerofbells - originally from r/GenZhouIt makes me really happy to hear that. Thanks for taking the time to read.
u/courtneygoe - originally from r/GenZhouTHANK YOU
OP isn’t operating in good faith whatsoever
u/ButtigiegMineralMap - originally from r/GenZhouI agree, even if it isn’t ideal, there’s too many people dedicated to eating what they perceive to be meat
u/courtneygoe - originally from r/GenZhouMilitant vegans are just as bad as anarchists. They care about utopian ideas instead of reality, instead of real solutions to problems, and I literally would die in the world they want to create unless I could at least have a chicken for eggs, and then I’d be severely underweight and undernourished. It isn’t just me though, MILLIONS of people have severe digestive issues. A lot of people have a worse time than I do, and can digest even fewer foods than I can. That isn’t even getting into efficiency in production of food, we don’t have the land or technology to grow enough food for an entirely vegan world.
u/LordOfThe_FLIES - originally from r/GenZhouLab grown meat still commodifies animals and their flesh, even if it’s in a roundabout way.
u/ThewFflegyy - originally from r/GenZhouits literally not the flesh of a conscious animal. as for commodifying it, is that really the fault of the product or the economic system?
u/explorerofbells - originally from r/GenZhouHow do you think they grow the flesh? They harvest it from someone. You can’t solve animal exploitation by exploiting animals. And you can’t do it through enriching meat capitalists.
u/ThewFflegyy - originally from r/GenZhouno dude, it does not. it is essentially genetically modified yeast.
im with you capitalism is a problem. that doesn’t mean the concept of lab grown meat can’t work. this is like saying you can’t eat bread because it is enriching agricultural capitalists.
u/explorerofbells - originally from r/GenZhouThey must harvest muscle cells, which requires a biopsy.
Bread can be produced ethically under socialism. There is no economic configuration under which oppressing sentient nonhumans for mere taste pleasure is ethical.
u/A-V-A-Weyland - originally from r/GenZhouIf a biopsy is animal abuse, then I guess we should also close down all veterinarians. Because if sticking a needle in an animal to extract a few cells is too far of a step for veganists then I guess cutting an animal open to perform surgery or to mend a broken leg is unethical.
You guys are so morally depraved. All you know is lash out just so you can stay on your plastic* moral high horse.
* >!Can’t be a real horse. That’d be cruel.!<
u/Pomelo-san - originally from r/GenZhouDoing a biopsy of an animal being against their individual interests is violating their autonomy to exploit them. Break the cycle of violence against all animal beings by changing your values and rejecting their devalued commodity status.
u/explorerofbells - originally from r/GenZhouHi, I’m a “leftist,” and I see no difference between necessary medical intervention for the benefit of the patient and hurting someone else because I think their body tastes good.
I’ve heard they’re growing leather too. Could really go for some lab grown boot 😋
u/ThewFflegyy - originally from r/GenZhouit depends on the product. impossible burgers for example are genetically modified yeast.
besides, a biopsy really isnt abusive. are vets abusive?
ok what is the difference between consuming bread and lab grown meat under capitalism? I really dont see the distinction in regards to commodification and the capitalist class being in control of its production.
ethical or not the reality is a lot of people arnt going to be willing to give up meat. that is the reality of the situation. as such there is a lot to be said for better alternatives to real meat.
u/explorerofbells - originally from r/GenZhouFirst of all, this is about lab grown meat, not Impossible. Impossible sucks too though because they unnecessarily test on animals.
When vets conduct biopsies, they’re doing it for the animal’s health, not to tickle your taste buds.
u/A-V-A-Weyland - originally from r/GenZhouLOL OP has no idea what they’re talking about.