I had some pretty brutal discussions with my dad who is a hardcore liberal of the “the answer lies somewhere between the middle of left and right” type. He agrees with a lot of socialist stances and class war but refuses to acknowledge that a revolution is needed to achieve socialism, that killing people wouldn’t make us better than the owning class and that violence is bad and that we should try to change the system by voting that voting will bring lasting change and not a revolution…all this kind of crap. He thinks that i got too “radicalized” and that im stuck in a bubble of propaganda and now he wants to have more control of the media i consume and that when he sees me watching or reading an article that i show him the sources of these articles. He really wants me to “keep an open-mind” which to him literally just means returning to being a liberal. The more of these discussions i have with my father the more i feel a distance between us and i would love if we just ignored our political opinions and kept living our lives how we always did but he insists that i am being groomed by some megalomaniac organization or a goofy ah evil person to join some kind of leftist jihad: “Yes you are entitled to have your opinion but you should also keep an open mind but the problem is that your opinion is not correct” that all i hear from him.
Hey homie, that does sound pretty frustrating.
If you’re young, there may be some some legit parental concern wrapped up in there that’s worth assuaging - he’s seeing his kid rapidly change in ways he doesn’t really understand, and he’s heard vague stories about people getting “radicalized” online.
The bit about controlling your media consumption would really frustrate me, though.
It might be worthwhile to step back a bit from trying to directly argue points (because it’s probably not going to change his mind anyway), and show that his concerns about you are unfounded through what you do.
You’re not radicalized in some propaganda bubble - mainstream media shows the evils of capitalism & the ineffectuality of electoralism on a daily basis. You don’t need a grayzone article to see that the Dems don’t do what they say.
I don’t know if that’s helpful. I avoid arguing politics with my parents anymore (I’ll just say something like “as a communist you know how I feel about that” and push past it). I don’t have to depend on my parents now, though, so maybe that’s different.
The topic of using violence is definitely a hard line for many people that they will not budge on.
The truth is is that almost anybody will commit or at least condone violence if the situation is dire enough, but for many of us Westerners and our parents it simply isn’t, and they will refuse to think they would budge on this because to them, the situation will never be that dire (even though in reality electoralism has done nothing to stop us killing millions in wars, coups, and causing climate change).
I’m not sure what the best route would be, continuing to try and frankly talk about it or continuing to casually drop it. I myself tried for years to talk politics with my mom but I finally had to let go and realize that she would never condone any tradition that has a history of pragmatic violence, and that it was that simple, and nowadays we get along great, and I just don’t talk politics with her.
The topic of using violence is definitely a hard line for many people that they will not budge on.
They’re fine with institutional and/or proxy violence as long as it’s done by people with uniforms, or at least people with contracts.
I just never discuss politics with my parents because they are nips deep in fascism and I can do nothing to change their views because they have zero interest in listening to anyone.
Sorry to hear this. It’s difficult. Try not to fall out with your parents over it.
My main advice is to not talk politics with your parents. At the moment, it sounds like they can effectively prevent you from reading what you want to read. But even without that, if you fall out with them over politics, you may regret it if they’re otherwise normies.
Especially don’t try to propagandise your father. Maybe when you’ve read more you can talk again. IME the more theory you read, the more mellow you will become. But from the point at which you accept the conclusions of Marxism up until you mellow, you get more and more combative as you realise you disagree with everyone but you can’t explain or articulate why they can’t see that you’re right; it’s frustrating because it feels like people aren’t listening to you. Eventually you learn why. That’s when it gets easier. Until then, it’s too likely to turn into the heated arguments that you describe.
Perhaps taking a step back in the agitprop at home will help your parents to relax more about what you’re reading; giving you the space to develop without censorship. It is going to look like you’re being radicalised by extremists if you’ve gone from ordinary liberal to bringing up Marxism at every meal. It’s understandable that non-Marxists will be concerned about that.
If that doesn’t work, read theory-theory by lesser known Marxists. Most liberals don’t know, because they don’t read Marxist theory, that Marxists, including Marx, develop arguments through a critique of facts and liberalism. So if you were to look at a list of the sources cited in the articles, you would mainly see a list of liberal texts. The fact that even Marx is mentioned isn’t indicative of the work being Marxist, either, because anti-Marxist works will have to cite Marx to challenge him. And almost any Marxist text can be re-framed and explained as a critique of Marxism because almost every one identifies problems in other Marxist works.
I’ve had some pretty heated discussions with my grandfather when I first became a communist. Eventually I just realized to him politics are a game. Sadly to a lot of people in the first world this is the case. Privilege clouds people’s judgement. When they are too privileged, no amount of evidence will change their minds. After all, their privilege can only be maintained by the continuation of reactionary backwards policies.
Something that has made me much less frustrated about people becoming absolutely deranged about Russia, is the fact that Europe no longer has any cards to play on the world stage. From now on, this continent is headed for irrelevance, stagnation and decay. So Europeans can believe in the dumbest things possible, because they won’t stop the progressive movements happening in the rest of the world. No matter how angry, racist and blood thirsty they get, they can’t collapse Russia, they can’t stop the rise of China, it seems they can’t even stop Africa from regaining it’s freedom.
Yea I had very heated discussions with grandparents too. My grandma was born and raised in the USSR (left around late teens I believe) but that doesn’t mean she has good takes. She was cool with gay people because she had a gay male friend growing up, but she’s anti-trans, doesn’t really believe in modern feminism, super religious Catholic (which made her dislike some USSR policies later in life) and above all else, pretty damn racist. She’s now an avid Fox viewer and Trump supporter. Thanksgivings are rough lol especially election years
The “game” is so infuriating.
There are so many white people in my life that love to talk about minority issues in front of minorities, yet disregard any minority opinion that makes them uncomfortable. It’s a leisurely activity to them that they have no actual stake in.
“You’re in a propaganda bubble! I need to restrict your access to media outside my bubble so that you aren’t in such a bubble!”
Riiiiiight…
Sounds like you live at home still, I wouldn’t rock the boat too much until you have autonomy. You don’t want to have a terrible relationship with someone who still controls a good portion of your decisions. Other than than that, we’ve all felt this. In my 30’s and my conversations with family are kinda going the same way. It’s ironic when someone says you’re falling for propaganda, while they still believe the lies spread by corporate media that have been clearly debunked.
Good luck comrade!
I don’t know how likely it is to work, but it’s worked for me before. I’d argue that regular capitalism is far more bloody than a revolution. 20 million people die from capitalism every year (malnutrition, preventable disease etc) because it’s not profitable to allocate resources to those who need it. Capitalism needs constant wars to function. The US has only not been at war for like 15 years of it’s existence. Democrats aren’t doing much good and are in essence enabling the rightward shift. They’re all neoliberals and each president is worse than the last. If they’re really pacifist brained ask if it was right to fight the Nazis and stuff like that. All of this can be proven with mainstream sources.
There were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.
When I was a social democrat, I discussed about my politics to my parents, and, it didn’t go well. Since then, I don’t even bother discussing about politics, because if they didn’t like me being a social democrat, it’s only gonna be worse if I tell them I’m a Communist.
Same boat here, I make my politics obvious enough to family that they can usually anticipate my takes on any given issue and know whether it will bring up an argument or not, so do I for them
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A “leftist” who believes there’s an electoral solution to class war is functionally a liberal.
A “leftist” that thinks the violent overthrow of the majority is the solution to class war is functionally a fascist.
A “leftist” that thinks the violent overthrow of the majority is the solution to class war is functionally a fascist.
That doesn’t track with my understanding. What’s your definition of fascism?
Edit: to be clear, a socialist revolution is the triumph of the worker majority over the oppressive owner class. Not “overthrow of the majority”.
You don’t think that violently installing yourselves as minority leaders of a majority in order to suppress opposition and subordinate individual interests is fascism? Well then, fuck. What is your definition?
Edit: To be clear, OP, a child, disagrees with their dads view that -
revolution is needed to achieve socialism, that killing people wouldn’t make us better than the owning class and that violence is bad.
The top commenter agreed that this is a reasonable position for a leftist with different ideas. You suggested that this is not a reasonable position. It’s fair to conclude then that you are pro-violence. As a pro-violence adherent of a globally unpopular economic and political movement you and OP proposing to install your movement “as minority leaders of a majority in order to suppress opposition and subordinate individual interests” meets the literal textbook definition of fascism that I linked you to.
Play whatever weasel word games you like, but the political spectrum is a teardrop and your call for violence puts you right back at fascism. If you don’t like this, maybe be a little less fasc-y?
You don’t think that violently installing yourselves as minority leaders of a majority in order to suppress opposition and subordinate individual interests is fascism? Well then, fuck. What is your definition?
That’s not what I said. What’s your definition of fascism?
how about you answer the question first, buckaroo
You’re right, Bob’s Guns is a great track. I’ve never listened to Ludique before!
I’d also like to recommend Bones by Be Svendsen.
^ lemmygrads, this is why I hate the term fascism. It lets white supremacist liberals like the one above off the hook for the atrocities committed by their own countries. The only difference between the US and Nazi germany, is that the US was successful at carrying out its planned program of genocide and native eviction; the nazis failed at their attempt at copying the US model.
The only difference between the two capitalist-imperialist forms of government, is that bourgeois democracy is far better at genocide than any other form.
You’ve edited in a significant amount, to avoid the fact that you’re ducking the question.
As a pro-violence adherent of a globally unpopular economic and political movement you and OP proposing to install your movement “as minority leaders of a majority in order to suppress opposition and subordinate individual interests” meets the literal textbook definition of fascism that I linked you to.
I’ve already addressed that your characterization of a socialist revolution being some minority enacting violence on a majority is inaccurate.
"as minority leaders of a majority in order to suppress opposition and subordinate individual interests”.
Not a quote from the wiki article, or from what I’ve said.
Again, in your own words, can you share what you consider fascism to be?
Or are you unable to come up with a definition that matches your argument?
Hey, which “majority” are you talking about?
This needs to be an emoji, it fits perfectly here.
TIL that the bourgeoisie class is the majority 😂
Yea, it’s a pretty similar situation for me here, my parents also are diehard libs. My dad is worse than my mom, he thinks I consumed “Russian propaganda” whatever that is supposed to mean. They are nice people and generally try to respect my beliefs a little bit but at the end of the day they are still libs and they have told me when I tried to explain my thoughts to them that they are too old to care. I try not to bring up politics around them but sometimes it slips out. From your description of events it sounds like your father is genuinely concerned for you being brainwashed, obviously this is not the case. But for his entire life he has been told that leftists are being controlled and are misguided, he will not change this view without many decades of work, so if I were you I would simply try to convince him that you in particular are not being brainwashed and why you think a leftist jihad is a waste of time. This worked for me pretty well, and my dad doesn’t really bring up “Russian propaganda” anymore. Have a great day and I wish you the best!
As someone who has a libertarian father, I have a general idea about how feel
Been there, belive me. Set a hard boundary with him. Tell him you love him and want to preserve your relationship but for that to happen, politics have to be off the table for discussion. A lot of these types also have plenty of opinions rooted in ignorance and they are not even aware that what they say and think is political, racist, sexist. etc. He also needs to trust that when he crosses this line, that he needs to respect if you bow out of discussion or respond appropriately to it. Either he gets the message or doesn’t, and that way the burden is not on you to maintain the relationship. If he doesn’t respect that, it’s on him.
Sucks to have to set that boundary and can feel cold. But it’s better than you harming your mental health by continuing to try and argue with him. You’re never going to radicalize him or change his mind. And if he’s anything like my father, some part of him honestly probably sees antagonizing you as “sport.” There is a huge generational disconnect today and most of these adults above the age of Millenial/GenZ seem to have a fundamental inability to grasp just how high the personal and immediate ramification of capitalism are on our lives. They got theirs and will pass before they ever see the worst of it.
It’s always tough to bring up politics to family, and don’t expect them to change opinions anytime soon, it may happen overtime it may not happen at all. I do very much agree with the “keeping an open mind” meaning to be liberal, I hear it often enough and it always means the same thing.
Do you still live with them?
first, you should stop consuming media, your digestive system wasn’t meant for that
second, you might want to just stop talking politics with your dad and let it go. some battles are not worth it.
but what if the media tastes really good
glass might also taste good but i wouldn’t recommend consuming it
