Be very of these false narratives which seek to bend the framework of reality towards a position in accord with the US Empire.
This is not “a conflict between two bourgeois countries”. This is an abstract, undialectical analysis.
It is adapting the framework of Western Imperialists.
This is a complex conflict decades in the making, at it’s core, it is a war between Russia and the Blood Empire.
The Ukrainian people are being used as a weapon by their bloodthirsty American masters.
I hope people here see how deceptive and devious this “both sides bad capitalists” narrative is.
It is poisonous to us communist communities, and it shows that western propaganda is very much able to spread on GenZedong.
Do not allow them to infiltrate our minds.
Godspeed comrades. o7
Also the last r/GenZedong mod statement is cringe as fuck, but its not the mods fault. Reddit permabanned all mods who refused to put out such a statement. Liberal “free speech”
Holy shit. I’m so glad I’m not the only one who smelled the psychological operation going on.
That post is 100% horseshit, and all about eliminating strong footed rejection of the efforts of the Fourth Reich.
That’s what’s really going on. It’s extremely sickening, and the psy op campaign is masked so well.
I fully expect that mod to be unaware of why they are being chosen. It’s because they are willing to bend into accord with the Blood Empire.
yeah, I posted about it over there. SO INCREDIBLY painful to read. THat sub is taken over by libs now.
they (reddit admins) went on a quiet ban-spree of users in the last day or two with some extremely vague bullshit ‘reason’ in the message they sent with the bans. I (and several others here) got popped despite doing nothing obvious to violate their extremely-made-up rules.
The capital has fallen…
Dammit i just went to read it since i missed it before, and it’s… sad. Reddit can ban that sub for no reason anyway.
What’s more infuriating than sad is some reactions in that thread.
Yes, its very sad, the mods chose a stupid reddit account over their principles. Really makes you wonder what these people would do when faced with actual state repression.
dont have to wonder anymore, they proved it for us.
Dude, have you also noticed that the GenZ sub has been COMPLETELY neutered?
The whole fucking this is a joke.
There is no energy on the reddit sub anymore.
There’s literally a fucking war going on and the sub is behaving as if the war isn’t fucking integral to Marxism Leninism and is forcing people to talk about other shit.
It has totally fucking killed the Hardline anti-west energy. It’s disgusting.
yeah, its FILLING with libs, just like every anti-imperial sub before it.
What was it?
Oof TIL “anglo” is a bad word
hahha, right?! fucking crackers…
Holy shit the hordes of npc’s replying over there. That sub is done.
It’s insane. There are upvoted comments calling Russia Imperialist.
The fascists have taken over our capital.
came here to say exactly this. is either super cringe or sus. which mods were permabanned?
I think several of them got permabanned, most importantly u/RedstarXtreme who was the head moderator who kicked out the lib mods who put out that cringe “we were spreading russian disinformation” statement and then put out the based “long live communism and Z, fuck you Reddit” statement. I think the current mods chose their reddit accounts over their principles sadly.
o damn i totally missed that post. fucking BASED. Did anyone save it?
Its still up, it hasnt been deleted as of now: https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/tluuv5/genzedong_moderator_statement_on_the_quarantine/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
thanks. baffled that it is still up. The top comment is the mod currently in control of the sub. And judging from other comments kicked redstar off the discord? Is that correct, is discord a good place or more like the reddit sub? I havnt been before but was thinking of joining as i left the sub.
I’m not on the Discord, but there have been a couple threads about it here and on Hexbear. Discord followed in Reddit’s wake, accusing the community of ‘spreading misinformation’ and threatening to take disciplinary action if the mods don’t do anything about it.
Both spaces live on the whims of their US domiciled corporate owners. They both will follow the same trajectory of moderators stepping up to “save” the communities by doing Silicon Valley’s dirty work. I won’t cast any judgement about the moderators because I don’ t know them and they’re in an impossible position, but I wouldn’t count on these places retaining the character they have become known for.
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Which statement? The old based one or the new cringe one?
it IS the mods fault though. Whichever ones remain.
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Exactly. Supporting Russia is the correct line, because Russia is an invaluable member of the modern day antiimperialist bloc led by China. If this bloc didnt exist then sure, its a conflict between 2 bourgeois states. But thats not the case, this is a conflict between the US, leader of the imperialist bloc, and Russia, ally of China, a socialist state, and member of the antiimperialist bloc. This is much more like WW2 than WW1, in that we should support a bourgeois state because of them being in alliance with socialist states.
Looks like there are comrades amongst us here who insist Russia is being Imperialist, just below.
Seeing this in this community makes me feel sick.
I agree. They dont know what imperialism is. Projecting power in other countries isnt imperialism. Imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism, its global monopoly capitalism, its the wholesale export of capital from the global north to the global south. Russia hasnt reached that stage yet, nor will reach it anytime soon, due to being unable to compete with the much stronger and much more developed US/EU imperialism.
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That’s not how meaning works. You are engaging in abstract universalism, the same abstract universalism that white anarchists use to call China fascist.
Look, imperialism is when US does stuff. And the more stuff US does, the imperialister it is. Working class? Never heard of it. /s
Are you fucking serious? Yes, the US is the only Imperial power in the world.
Get the fuck over it. Your abstract universalism will be more appreciated on anarchist subs, where you can go call China fascist because it’s had conflicts with other countries.
Oh, I am dead fucking serious. The history has shown that both Paris Commune and USSR have arose from cracks of the weaker parties in imperialist war, and social chauvinists like Plekhanov and Kautsky have been wrong in siding with state over the proletariat.
Get the fuck over it. Your militant idealism will be more appreciated on anarchist subs, where the class struggle is already out of the window.
Yeah, you’re applying the “definition” Imperialism to different realities as if is an abstract universal.
Yeah, you’re an anarchist. The vast, vast majority of people here, including the moderators who are more educated than anyone else, look at your pathetic take and call you what you are.
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Nah they have it the right way around. The global North has developed its own capitalism to the point where in order to maintain profits, it must export capital to the global South where land, labor, and materials are cheap & capital making use of these things does not yet exist.
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Capital isnt commodities, its means of production, basically companies. The west exports companies to the global south to steal the products of their labor, thus creating profits.
Capital includes a lot: There is money / finance capital, production / factory capital, natural resource / land capital, even intellectual assets / intelligence capital.
True, i was simplifying it for him to understand it easier
Indeed. I accept when they at least state their position and enter debate so they can solve their doubts about what is and what is not imperialism, but no, they only downvotes go brrrr…
Pussies.
there will always be trots, get t hem before they get you.
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Yeah, im sure Moldova is so poor because of ebil russian imperialism, not because of western backed economic shock therapy aka US and EU imperialism! /s
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Its not, learn what imperialism is. What russian oligarchs control all of Moldovas companies, natural resources and imports and exports? None, thats the west.
Russia owns all of Moldova’s gas imports and has used this to increase prices for profit.
Owning all gas imports isnt owning all companies and natural resources of a country, which is what imperialism is. Imperialism is the export of capital, not of commodities like gas. Russia exports mainly commodities, which is why its not imperialist, it hasnt reached that stage of capitalist development yet. Or are you saying that the EU is being imperialized by Russia because they depend on russian gas? Lol
Becuase you’re using the word Imperialism as an abstract universal.
Your analysis is the same type of garbage idealism that leads white anarchists to call China Fascist because it has a state.
o7
Yo KD’s a comrade? Nice
My midrange game rivals Stalin’s
Can’t lose with this dude on your team.
We should get an NBA community going over here. Would love to talk bball in a place where people aren’t whinging over ‘muh CCP’ all the time
I’m so down.
R/NBA is one of the worst subreddits on China, the LeChina shit was literally part of my radicalization because I was dumbfounded how dumb they are.
Then I realized that r/NBA is a liberal/anarchist sub
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mao and the CPC allied with the KMT on multiple occasions in order to fight back japanese imperialist aggression; the idea that any and all capitalist forces must always be your enemy at all times feels like a moralist perspective rather than a realist one. you can maintain an ideological and philosophical course while having temporary alliances with those that disagree or even contradict you, it’s just that you have to keep in mind what the primary contradiction is and like you state that is western/american imperialism and hegemony.
i really feel like all this moral posturing is ingrained in western history and culture through christianity and its concept of moral purity: essentially claiming that capitalism is evil, and therefore any temporary alliance or peace made with capitalists corrupts your “purity of values.” disregarding how untrue this is, what use is such stringent and dogmatic commitment to a set of values when you ultimately lose or die because of it? this is the same way that china’s socialist project is discredited, because billionaires and capitalists exist despite their ultimate capitulation to the government.
all these western leftists want to posture themselves as more pure or simply more correct, when in doing so they ironically (and truly in the fashion of western imperialist projection) stan for literal nazis or NATO. it’s all very confusing and complicated.
That’s the kind of concise argument we need, simple yet powerful.
I agree with you so this is just a nitpick, but feudalism was a particular mode of production. Notably, serfs didn’t have wages or working hours and did own the products of their own labor (after rent was paid).
Capitalists definitely want things to remain capitalist because they would actually lose wealth and power if feudalism were reestablished.
I never understood how people can call Russia “imperialist.” Russia doesn’t coup other nations’ democratically elected governments, doesn’t invade countries half way across the planet to maintain hegemony, etc. Russia is a capitalist oligarchy but it isn’t imperialist. The USA is the greatest imperialist power and the priority should be weakening it. The world will be free if the US is defeated, if Russia is defeated it will only make the US more powerful.
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Well, it IS a conflict between two bourgeois countries. But that doesn’t mean that one (Russia) isn’t the obvious actor that should be supported.
Well then you cannot boil the conflict down to an abstract declaration of “conflict between two bourgeois countries”
You’re right. Though I’ve talked to “communists” who actually believe Russia is on some path to reestablishing the USSR just because its a challenge to Western hegemony. So with every declaration that Russia is not imperialist, I think it’s still worth reminding that they’re not aspiring to be socialist either.
They are not aspiring to be ideologically socialism but their aspirations directly benefit the development of real, material socialism
So there is a material significance here, that is imperative in any analysis
Yep, Russia serves as a temporary ally to all AES countries. Denying/disapproving this only serves to benefit the west.
Yep. Seems like we’ve got some anarchists in our waters here
Of course
Is Russia suddenly a DotP, do you reckon?
Would boiling it down to a “conflict between two bourgeois countries” be any worse than boiling all of the EU politics to “just a part of the US empire” or to boil down imperialism to “you can’t be imperialist if you’ve been imperialized” (*laughs Spanishly*) and “there can be only one imperialist power in the world”?
Does imperialism work by Highlander rules or something?
Would boiling it down to a “conflict between two bourgeois countries” be any worse than boiling all of the EU politics to “just a part of the US empire”
Yes it would be infinitely worse because Russia is not part of the white, Anglo hegemonic core like Europe is.
Get over it.
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Western dogs infiltrating r/GenZedong to pacify it.
c/GenZedong *
Didn’t r/GenZedong ban any non western sources?
It was meant to signify the change from Reddit to Lemmy, since the sub is basically counting its days under quarantine now.
They are bourgeois states but not all aggression between bourgeois states is automatically imperialist or unjustified. In this case, it’s pretty much NATO/UK/EU who are the true aggressors after absorbing the entire central eastern European corridor through which Russia has been invaded several times the past few centuries. All Russian state forms from the imperial to the Soviet to the bourgeois national would react in the same way against this slow development.
Ukrainian nationalism as some sort of completely benign and universal matter among all Ukrainians and some kind of right to the ethnic and national self-determination of the country are views of ignorant westerners who have no idea about the lack of uniformity as far as identities are concerned. Ethnically, Ukrainians, Russians and Georgians are all basically one common cultural group of people with various flavors but I doubt anyone in the West believed that the cossacks aren’t Russian prior to 2022. It’s basically a civil war and the northwestern Ukrainian nationalists and descendants of Bandera have had almost an entire century of planning to Ukrainianize Ukraine from their own supposedly superior perspective of having some weird half-Germanic ancestry which they don’t believe they share with “Russo-Mongols”, “Pontics”, “Mediterraneans” and other racial science junk. They’ve had a policy of ethnic cleansing before WWII and they’re far more of a foreign element than Russian-speaking Ukrainians. The modern appearance of strong nationalist movements in the former eastern bloc is never, ever, ever an innocent development.
Technically it is a conflict of two bourgeois countries, but as you said, it’s more complex than that. The Russian bourgeois don’t benefit from this conflict, so it’s obvious the war is a war of desperation, keeping NATO aggression (which we’ve been analyzing for literally decades) at bay. It isn’t an imperialist war, but one of de-Nazification, and a nation who has a history with Nazis slaughtering them I believe has every right to protect themselves from a country with a history of supporting them (USA). Regardless, I’m still weary of Russia and Putin, and do hope this conflict ends sooner than later.
Agreed. Especially since the US has every intent to prolong this war in order to bleed Russia as much as possible, just like the first time.
Also, I’m banned on reddit because I harassed a Zionist.
But if someone wants to post this on GenZedong reddit. Please do. Our comrades must be aware of this narrative.
This is a seed of western propaganda that has clearly been forcefully placed into the minds of some of our comrades.
We should alert our comrades of this seed and stomp out the western devil.
those posts get removed now. new mods said we have to be for ukraine.
B b b b b b ut did u know big bad scary russia mann BAD?!?!? Hah of course you dont stpid tankbie!!!
Max is implying that viewing war as a battle between good and evil is acceptable at times. That’s not very dialectically materialist of him 🧐
It’s very alarming that it has 15 upvotes.
Mods should make a post about this and warn all of our comrades of this growing seed.
comrade stalin put this both sides are bad bs to rest over 100 years ago:
The Anarchists say that the dialectical method is “subtle word-weaving,” “the method of sophistry,” “logical somersaults” (see Nobati, No. 8. Sh. G.), “with the aid of which both truth and falsehood are proved with equal facility” (see Nobati, No. 4. Article by V. Cherkezishvili).
Thus, in the opinion of the Anarchists, the dialectical method proves both truth and falsehood.
At first sight it would seem that the accusation advanced by the Anarchists has some foundation. Listen, for example, to what Engels says about the follower of the metaphysical method :
“. . . His communication is: ‘Yea, yea; nay, nay, for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.’ For him a thing either exists, or it does not exist; it is equally impossible for a thing to be itself and at the same time something else. Positive and negative absolutely exclude one another . . .” (see Anti-Duhring. Introduction).
How is that? — the Anarchists cry heatedly. Is it possible for a thing to be good and bad at the same time?! That is “sophistry,” “juggling with words,” it shows that “you want to prove truth and falsehood with equal facility”! . . .
Let us, however, go into the substance of the matter.
Today we are demanding a democratic republic. Can we say that a democratic republic is good in all respects, or bad in all respects? No we cannot! Why?
Because a democratic republic is good only in one respect: when it destroys the feudal system; but it is bad in another respect: when it strengthens the bourgeois system. Hence we say: in so far as the democratic republic destroys the feudal system it is good — and we fight for it; but in so far as it strengthens the bourgeois system it is bad — and we fight against it. So the same democratic republic can be “good” and “bad” at the same time — it is “yes” and “no.”
The same thing may be said about the eight-hour day, which is good and bad at the same time: “good” in so far as it strengthens the proletariat, and “bad” in so far as it strengthens the wage system.
It was facts of this kind that Engels had in mind when he characterised the dialectical method in the words we quoted above.
The Anarchists, however, fail to understand this, and an absolutely clear idea seems to them to be nebulous “sophistry.”
The Anarchists are, of course, at liberty to note or ignore these facts, they may even ignore the sand on the sandy seashore — they have every right to do that. But why drag in the dialectical method, which, unlike anarchism, does not look at life with its eyes shut, which has its finger on the pulse of life and openly says: since life changes and is in motion, every phenomenon of life has two trends: a positive and a negative; the first we must defend, the second we must reject.
fucking embarrasing to be a so called marxist with these anarchisty bs takes. it’s simply undialectical, unmarxist.
There are absolutely anarchists here in this sub.
They are vastly, vastly outnumbered, but there is some support for abstract universalism, and the only conclusion I can come to is white anarchists.
Proposal to start calling MLMs and gonzaloites, red anarchists. Their tactics and analyses are indistinguishable from anarchist ones anyway.
trostkytes of the east
They are half right, Russia is capitalist and definitely is a small imperialist (or it at least aspires to imperialism). Consider pre WW1 Germany as a point of comparison. Germany didn’t have the vast empires of France, Britain etc but they did still colonize a few islands and did try to expand its holdings. It just couldn’t because the bigger powers got to everything first. This is a very similar circumstance to Russia which was very late on becoming strong enough to build an empire.
Some take this parallel too far and assert that then the correct line must be revolutionary defeatism as advocated by Lenin. This would be a correct line if it wasn’t for the fact that this conflict contains the 3rd party of the DPR and LPR. These sides have allied with Russia and they are who we should support so we by extension support the Russian side. Make no mistake, Russia is not doing this out of the goodness of its heart. It has goals to increase its own power however because Russia is so comparably small and the west is so hypermilitarized and wealthy they need to build alliances with proletarian and national liberation groups to get enough power to counter the west. This is much less a WW1 situation where revolutionary defeatism is useful and much more a national liberation or late feudal situation where a strata of the bourgeois and the proletariat have their interests aligned.
If Russia is aspiring to be imperialist then why are its finance capitalists so few? Where are its institutions that are reaching to extract rent from the world?
I dont mind using imperialism in a more generic way but even then I dont see what is being gained from Russia’s invasion beyond a reaction or asserting its sovereignty against radicalized and armed US puppets. Is Russia going to unchain its bankers or spread its corporations into Ukraine? Or is it just military action at all that constitutes this? Is every large country or regional power small imperialist? Is Mexico, or Indonesia, or Brazil, or Nigeria small imperialist?
I doubt any of those countries, US put aside, can be classified either as imperialists, neoimperialists or small imperialists. But what do I know, bOtH cOUntriEs aRe cApiTaliSTs.
Actually watching how US is fucking over the whole European union has got me questioning if France should be labeled imperialist too. I think today it has a whole another meaning.
Lol. Imperialists can fight each other you know?
Is Russia going to unchain its bankers or spread its corporations into Ukraine?
If we view Russia as trying to establish its sphere of influence in Ukraine as installing a pro-Russian leader, I could see Russia sweeping in to capture the natural resources. Wheat and oil would be the two biggest resources.
In other aspects, we might not view Russia as an imperialist power. But you can definitely argue that they fulfill some of Lenin’s description.
I agree that in some points it is imperialist. But then so is much of the world. This is why I prefer “semi-periphary.” Id say the Dominican Republic is semi-periphary in many ways, but to call it imperialist (or small imperialist, or regional imperialist) seems incorrect because it only fits with some of the points.
I get that. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the clarification.
Their finance capitalists are few because most of the world is under western dominance meaning that there is less places to export capital for them as late comers. This keeps them at a lower stage of capitalist development. However, every capitalist country will do all it can to become fully imperialist and Russia is no different. Its national bourgeois aspire to be major imperialists, they just haven’t achieved it yet as the west is currently standing in their way as a giant imperialist. Like again, WW1 Germany. If the Kaiser had the ability to take all of Britain and France’s colonies for itself it would. Just because it did not have such vast holdings does not mean it does not want them.
As I said similarly above:
It is an abstract, undialectical analysis, which makes it completely false.
This immaterial, false abstraction is serving the American Empire.
How you could look at this physical bloodthirsty psychological weapon and say it is “they are half right” is beyond me if you are a dialectial materialist, you would recognize this abstraction as a psychological weapon of the Empire.
That is disgusting. This lie is part of the devil. Do not give the American Devil the pass.
The reason you do not have the same energy as me is because you do not recognize that this idea is a physical weapon of the American Empire that they are attempting to slash the social fabric of communist thought.
Thank you for your thoughts though comrade o7
Just to add, you also said:
Make no mistake, Russia is not doing this out of the goodness of its heart.
This declaration is just as childish as making the declaration that Russia is doing this out of the goodness of their heart.
This is alarming, comrade. You are engaging in idealistic analysis. This is not dialectal materialism and not in accord with communist theory.
I agree that this “both sides bad” line supports the empire. But its rooted not in malice, but in a poor understanding of the actual situation on the ground. Many don’t even know what the DPR and LPR are and instead see this conflict in an entirely bourgeois vs bourgeois fashion. Once you reconize this 3rd element at play the analysis quickly changes from “both sides bad” to “Russia is playing a relatively progressive role on the world stage and in this conflict”. I feel you have quite a rose tinted view of Russia. You make it seem as if Russia is some altruistic proletarian society when in reality it is thoroughly capitalist to the core.
You also keep pushing this Russia VS west narrative ignoring the real struggle which is of the DPR and LPR against western imperialism and fascism. They have been fighting far longer and only now got Russian support because of Ukraine making moves to join NATO.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I firmly reject this idea that I am “viewing Russia with rose colored glasses”.
I am not “viewing” Russia through anything at all. I am not making any sort of moral, of ideological support of Russia.
It seems you believe I am engaging in morality judgement, where as a dialectial materialist, I reject.
I am looking and observing the physical phenomenon on the surface of the earth, and forming my analysis around the development of this phenomenon and nothing more.
And when I engage in this dialectal analysis, yes, it is true that what Russia is doing is a progressive force. That is not a moral judgement.
That is an objective reality. The multipolar world is being accelerated, objectively.
I make no moral judgements, but I do recognize the devil when it appears.
To call something a “devil” is itself engaging in moral arguments against “the bad” over “the good”. Unless you believe the US is made up of literal devils, as in those fictional creatures of “evil”. If you do believe that then you are delusional.
You are making it seem as though the Russian bourgeois goal is to give liberation to these people. That is untrue, their goal is to expand their power and defend themselves. They are driven by the same greed as the rest of the bourgeois, they are just too weak to enforce it purely with the stick so they must use the carrot. They would happily do everything the US does if they had the chance, but they don’t have that chance, so they can’t. They are not against capitalism in the slightest, they are just against the western bourgeois who are only representative of capitalism under western control.
If Russia was truely against capitalism as you claim it would be practicing socialism right now, the bourgeois would liquidate themselves. They want capitalism, they just want to be the ones on top.
Finally you claim that my analysis is undialectical when I’m the only one applying class analysis while you sling your empty slogans and tell me to “reflect” on my “idealistic contradictions” without supplying any kind of analysis of your own unless you consider America being a “devil” a proper substitute for class analysis. If that’s the case then you’d make a 3rd rate theologian and an even worse Marxist.
To call something a “devil” is itself engaging in moral arguments against “the bad” over “the good”. Unless you believe the US is made up of literal devils, as in those fictional creatures of “evil”. If you do believe that then you are delusional.
America is the physical devil, not because if moral judgement but because the economic core will lead objectively to the destruction of the planet. It is not a moral judgement. You are misinterpreting the essence of what I am delivering.
You are making it seem as though the Russian bourgeois goal is to give liberation to these people.
No I am not.
If Russia was truely against capitalism as you claim it would be practicing socialism right now, the bourgeois would liquidate themselves. They want capitalism, they just want to be the ones on top.
Absolutely hilarious. This is the same, western white perspective which white anarchists use to chastise China as a capitalist Dictatorship.
Again, you are engaging in even more dense idealism.
You claim if they wanted socialism they would liquidate themselves?
Comrade, they are bound by a material reality in which they are under the thumb of the American Empire. You are asking for the Russian state to commit suicide. If they were to abolish and overthrow their entire system they would be obliterated by the American Empire.
It is truly unbelievable that a self proclaimed Marxist could state that Russia must prove ideological accord by sabatoging and engaging in a destabilizing restructuring while they are UNDER FUCKING ATTACK BY THE GODDAMN FOURTH REICH, NATO.
HOLY FUCKING SHIT, COMRADE.
So you posit that the country of America has coalesced into the form of a devil? You have any idea how ridiculous that sounds. I know you meant to use such a term as “devil” as a metaphor just as I use words like “core”. There is no physical core just as their is no physical devil, it is a metaphor to more precisely describe something that is difficult to put directly to words.
So you think the Russian bourgeois who killed the USSR and bought the state for pennies on the dollar want to give up all of their wealth and power? Why haven’t they all joined the communist party yet, if they can’t fully liquidate themselves then modeling themselves off China is certainly a step in the right direction. Mandatory unionization, strong workers protections, focusing on poverty reduction and economic development. All of these are things the Russian national bourgeois choose not to do because they are bourgeois. China is actually ran by the proletariat. That is the difference.
And yes, you do make it seem Russia is some do no wrong impossible superhero when in reality its national bourgeois are just as self interested as any other country. They are just too weak to act like the west does.
If the Russian national bourgeois truly want socialism as you claim then why? What forces at play make them different from every other bourgeois (even the Chinese ones who, though under proletarian hegemony, still do push for increasing their own power out of self interest)? Are they just virtuous people (if yes what made them so?)? What causes them to totally reject their class interests?
So you posit that the country of America has coalesced into the form of a devil?
You are misunderstanding.
When I call it the devil, I am not saying America is a fictional character with red skin and horns.
I’m saying America IS the Devil. That the American roads, corporate building, the bridges, the cable lines, electric lines, all of the physical structures of America are the Devil, and that is what the material Devil is.
I am not using the abstract construct of the Devil when I call America the Devil.
The American you see when you look at satellite images is the Devil. That is what the Devil looks like, it is America.
And you cannot deny the objective fact that this American Empire left undefeated is going to lead to the destruction of humanity and all life on earth.
I am NOT engaging in the abstract use of the word, instead I am using the word’s essence to encapsulate what America physically is.
And yes, you do make it seem Russia is some do no wrong impossible superhero when in reality its national bourgeois are just as self interested as any other country. They are just too weak to act like the west does.
First off, no I’m not making them out to be a superhero, it’s just that I recognize they are opposed to the American Empire and aligned with china, thus making them a progressive force.
You are acting like their opposition to America is insignificant, and rather focusing on the abstract idea of socialism, and judging Russia under this abstract pretense.
I am simply recognizing significant, objective realities, which are opposed got be American Empire and necessary for its destruction.
Maybe we can pull back the hostility and reach an understanding.
If the Russian national bourgeois truly want socialism
I’m not saying they want socialism. I’m saying they want a multipolar world, which objectively benefits socialism.
This is the key.
You also say it is “Capitalist to the core” but it is literally in opposition to the white hegemonic core of capitalism.
Again, comrade, you are engaging in abstraction and undialectical analysis.
Your word choice is ironically reflective of your idealistic thought. “Capitalist to the core”.
The actual core is the American Empire and the core is an enemy of Russia.
You need to reflect on this as it it is indicative of your idealistic contradictions.
People really need to realize there are two types of capitalist countries: a tiny minority of imperial core ones, and a shit ton of poorer exploited ones feeding them.
Revolutionary defeatism, if it applies at all, should only include the former.
Beautifuly said o7
There is no revolutionary situation in both Ukraine or Russia, and no functional systems of worker organizations, so “revolutionary defeatism” brings nothing, workers classes in both Russia and Ukraine are too weak and unorganized to topple their respective governments, so in the end it doesn’t matter. But for other socialist countries Russia is very useful asset in helping to topple west hegemony. And, in the long run, Russian and Ukrainian workers could return their countries from the claws of the bourgeoise with help from these socialist countries and with at least partially survived socialist culture there.
The second largest political party in Russia is communist. It is not in the imperial core, and it always remains a possibility that the communists will take power there again. Also noteworthy that russian communists largely support this war in defense of the people of the Donbass and against NATO expansionism.
The 2nd largest political party in Japan is communist too, you gonna tell me its not imperial core?
You really think communists in Russia are gonna take power through elections? I didn’t realizes this was GenZeDemocraticSocialists, my mistake.
I’m not against the war, I even said Russia is acting as a progressive force in this moment. All I’m saying is that the Russian national bourgeois do not care about concepts like self determination, they care about expanding their power. This is why it took so long for Russia to finally intervene. It saw a threat to itself and acted, Russia didn’t care about Nazi Ukraine while the people of the DPR and LPR were getting bombed for 8 years straight, if the situation continued as it was Russia wouldn’t have gotten involved. Only when an actual threat to Russia emerged did it intervene.
The 2nd largest political party in Japan is communist too
No it isn’t, its not even in the top 5 political parties in Japan. Also the JCP is basically a socdem party… its about as “communist” as the eurocommunist or the french socialist party. They even consider China imperialist. Compare that with the KPRF which carries the legacy and ideals of the fully functioning RSDLP, IE the party of Lenin and the Bolsheviks.
you gonna tell me its not imperial core?
Japan is 100% in the imperial core: its an OECD nation, and along with Germany it was one of the main nations the US built up to be anti-communist bulwarks after WW2. Compare that with Russia, which is not in the imperial core and does not receive the benefits of unequal exchange.
Russian national bourgeois do not care about concepts like self determination
Not all nationalisms are equal. The nationalism of a Russia, Iran, or Venezuala has a genuinely progressive character. And Russia has not been completely standing on the sidelines w/ regard to the Donbass, or Crimea. They’ve helped them in the past, with weapons and via a proxy war (just like Ukraine was doing, except they were arming right-wing paramilitaries) and are helping the republics now. Maybe not up to your standards, but that’s a decision for them to make when they decide to do overt military action, if at all.
I’m boggled at how your comment got even a single upvote, anyone can easily fact check your claims.
I agree that the JCP is basically succdem, but they are the largest none ruling communist party in the world. Revisionist yes, but still technically a communist party.
The party of Lenin and the Bolsheviks? We all know the USSR went extremely revisionist. The same party that let Gorby into power? The party of Breznhev and Kruschev? They are closer to the modern day than Lenin is. I’m not saying the party can’t change mind you, maybe they fixed their revisionism, in fact I find it likely they did. However empty phrases on how its the party of Lenin is ridiculous and not a real argument.
I agree Japan is imperial core. You’re right that Russia is not imperial core, but there can be more than 1 imperialist power at a time. That is what caused WW1. This is why I specify Russia as a small imperialist.
You are also correct that not all nationalism is equal. I never said anything about Russian nationalism as I don’t know enough about it in particular to have an opinion.
You are right that its their choice how they use (or not) their military. However to just ignore their actions instead of analyzing what it means is important. Each action made has a purpose, including the choice to be inactive. They chose to be inactive. They only took action when it became a threat to them, this is reasonable, you cannot expect anything more, however it also shows that their reasons are out of self interest. Out of securing resources for themselves.
CPRF is a bourgeoisie party. A decent number of low-ranking/local area members are active when it comes to social issues, but they’re being repressed by police and boomers at top like Zuyganov are happy to purge members who don’t subscribe to only voting in parliament where United Russia has 3/4 of places anyway.
What made RSDLP a revolutionary force was that they’ve represented the working class and peasantry which has already started self organizing and building dual power. Bolsheviks (but also other parties like mensheviks and SRs) have acted as a vanguard of a revolutionary mass movement, but not made it happen on their own. There can’t be new RSDLP until class consciousness gets high enough to fuel the revolutionary wave, meaning that CPRF can’t be a revolutionary party of a working class just because there are no material conditions for it to exist. But also it’s not acting to spread class consciousness or organize the working masses like Bolsheviks did, nor really organizing theory study groups to build up revolutionary vanguard. I would classify it as left-populist or maybe even USSR-populist (using vague Soviet nostalgia and themes without any class character), and they’re only allowed to exist because they’re no threat to the bourgeoisie class.
That sucks, I’ve only heard good things about the CPRF. In this case it is basically equivalent to the JCP in terms of being communist in name but succdem/bourgeois in practice.
Yes? We both agree that revolutionary defeatism serves no purpose in this conflict. I don’t really get where you disagree with me.
I just wanted to add remark about revilutionary situation, that’s all. I fully agree with you and i did not want it to be seen as disagreeing. Sorry.
How the fuck can you agree with someone who is calling the pushback of the Fourth Reich “small Imperialism”. That doesn’t immediately raise a flag to you? Jesus, this community needs a mod post again clarifying what Imperialism is.
No problem, no need to apologize. I was just confused, if you agree with the conclusion that we should support the DPR and LPR in their struggle against Ukraine then that’s what matters.
small imperialist
The way I frame this concept is “regional imperialism”.
So, for example, I am of the opinion that Iran is engaged in regional imperialism. I’m completely sympathetic to why that is the state of affairs for them due to economic and geopolitical reasons (West Asia is a cutthroat continent for obvious reasons and, unfortunately, if Iran isn’t out there projecting power beyond its own borders then it’s only a matter of time before Wahhabi groups like ISIS suddenly “somehow” find themselves armed, trained, supplied, and on Iran’s doorstep snapping at its heels.)
If Iran had the ability to extend its reach I think it’s fair to say based on current evidence that it likely would.
But that’s beside the point.
My reason for framing a country as a regional imperialist power is to cast a clear distinction between them and countries in the NATO axis - global imperialists through and through. This allows for critical analysis of Iran and it helps to avoid the “both sides bad” which all too often ends up carrying water for the side which is very clearly, demonstrably much the greater of two evils.
As I said below:
Imperialism is not when you have a conflict or power struggle.
Imperialism is when you have 800 foreign military bases, control all economic counsels, sanction and starve out human populations, forcing other countries to stay in line with mass murdering sanctions under threat of additional sanctions against themselves.
Russia is not even close to being Imperialist in any regard. It is a state that exists in a world that is dominated by an Imperialist Empire.
The conflict in Ukraine is not a kind of any “small Imperialism”.
That is a ridiculous and abstract position. You are abstracting the meaning of Imperialism and applying it to a country that has been a historic victim of American Imperialism.
You speak of abstractions and ridiculous positions yet you essentialize imperialism to a quantity and to a victim-perpetrator binary. You argue as if imperialism is not something which develops gradually as a process but rather something that emerges fully-formed or which only exists once it surpasses a certain level of intensity.
Would you say that the EU is not imperialist given the fact that it doesn’t meet your definition above? 🤔🤔
“meeting my definition” means nothing because it is not “my definition” that is the center of meaning.
To answer your question, the EU is part of the American Empire, they are synonymous.
The fact that you even pose this question shows how ridiculous your perspective is.
The center of the meaning is having 800 foreign military bases? Just whose definition are you using here buddy?
It’s remarkable that you’d flatten out any materialist analysis of the EU in favor of the terminally-online debatebro take that the EU is simply a part of the American Empire.
Given that there are well over 200 US military bases in the EU and “the EU is a part of the American Empire” then does that mean that the US doesn’t actually reach that magical 800+ number of foreign military bases, thus meaning that the US isn’t imperialist by your measure?
The fact that you can’t actually respond to the content of my question any more than you can help yourself from soapboxing shows more about your perspective than a question, which is intended to highlight the absurdity in your own position and to see if you are capable of addressing the contradictions in your own muddled thinking, does.
Yours is a grim parody of dialectical materialism; I’d call it vulgar DiaMat but that would be too charitable since it’s neither dialectical nor materialist.
I was making clear the real material difference between the realities.
Unlike you, I am not making an abstraction using the definition and then applying it universally across realities inside and outside of the American Empire.
Because I’m not an anarchist, like you.
The “reality” is that:
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Imperialism must be global before it’s imperialism
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Imperialism is about about many military bases you have internationally
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If you have been a subject of imperialism, you cannot be imperialist yourself
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Imperialism is a synonym for being a global hegemon
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The EU has absolutely zero internal political economy or contradictions that distinguish it from the US; it’s literally just an extension of the US
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Anyone who doesn’t immediately agree with everything you say is an anarchist
You’re a real winner, aren’t you?
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I like small imperialist just because its a call back to the petit bourgeois - national bourgeois dynamic but regional imperialist is an entirely fair line to use as well as its mostly a matter of personal preference at this point as no one has really codified this language yet.
Imperialism is not when you have a conflict or power struggle.
Imperialism is when you have 800 foreign military bases, control all economic counsels, sanction and starve out human populations, forcing other countries to stay in line with mass murdering sanctions under threat of additional sanctions against themselves.
Russia is not even close to being Imperialist in any regard. It is a state that exists in a world that is dominated by an Imperialist Empire.
The conflict in Ukraine is not a kind of any “small Imperialism”.
That is a ridiculous and abstract position. You are abstracting the meaning of Imperialism and applying it to a country that has been a historic victim of American Imperialism.
Let’s say for a moment that I run an island nation. There is a country nearby that I can neocolonize because its the modern era, and my country is fully developed while theirs isn’t. This is still imperialism, just smaller scale.
You are correct when you say that Russia is not at the US’ level of imperialism. But it does throw around a lot of weight regionally. Its the difference between domestic/household slavery and a fully developed slave economy. Both still use slaves, the 2nd is just larger scale. Both Russia and the US participate in imperialist activities, but to very different scales.
The petit bourgeois still owns their own business, they just happen to work in it. The difference between the petit bourgeois and the national bourgeois is not one of relation to the means of production so much as it is a question of labor. National and imperialist bourgeois don’t need to actually input any labor while the petit bourgeois do. Still bourgeois, just at different levels.
The Russian participation conflict in Ukraine is objectively for imperialist reasons. The Russia national bourgeois isn’t there for fun, they want to secure their natural gas and oil pipelines and prevent NATO from expanding into them. Imperialists don’t do imperialism because they like seeing people suffer (exclusively) they do so because it is necessary for capital to become imperialist after it develops enough.
Regardless of this selfish intention however, Russia is being forced to compromise with proletarian movements to get anything because the western imperialists already own most everything.
NATO is the fourth reich. Can you understand why I find your proclamation to be utterly ridiculous?
You’re claiming the conflict is for “Imperialist reasons” and then in the next breath you state it’s to prevent NATO from expanding into them.
You are saying that Russia’s effort to prevent the expansion of the Fourth Reich is Imperialism.
I just… I’m blown away.
In case you didn’t know, Ukraine is not a part of Russia (shocking). They are manipulating the politics of another nation for their own ends and securing natural resources for themselves at the expense of another nation. This is imperialist. Even if there are reasonable reasons attached.
Ah, so I see the issue now.
You believe that imperialism = expanding your sphere of influence.
They are manipulating the politics of another nation for their own ends and securing natural resources for themselves at the expense of another nation.
You are again ignoring that Ukraine lost it’s sovereignty long ago at the hands of the Fourth Reich. It was already a controlled state under the American Empire even not being part of NATO officially.
Your perspective is a product of the perceived ideological intention of the Russian state, which is heavily biased and not connected to material reality.
Imperialism is not conflict or expansion of influence, comrade. The fact that you stated Russia is fighting off the Fourth Reich and then called that Imperialism shows you are not engaging with the dialectics, but rather viewing the conflict through perceived ideological intention.
They are manipulating the politics of another nation for their own ends and securing natural resources for themselves
Russia fighting off the sphere of influence of the Fourth Reich is not Imperialism, comrade.
The Russian participation conflict in Ukraine is objectively for imperialist reasons.
Imagine calling yourself a communist and writing this. Russia having natural resources and selling them is not imperialism.
Correct, Russia invading a neighboring country to secure resources is however definitely a trademark of it.
This is literal fucking Nazi apologia.
Sadly, with how western marxists are viewing things, they will never be able to arrive at the correct conclusion and the true picture of the conflict. They just won’t accept that no power in the world is left to oppose capital in any form other than themselves.
I won’t be speaking the obvious things, because I’ll be instadeleted from Lemmygrad, but maybe in the future western left will shift its views.
Couldn’t have said it better myself, comrade.
They are engaging in pure idealistic analysis. There is not a drop of dialectical materialism in these “two bourgeois states” ideas.
This idealistic analysis is a psychological weapon.
…by “western marxists” I still include GenZedong users too. If you can’t pinpoint the interests of our Russian bourgeoisie it doesn’t mean there are none to be found. The situation with NATO expansion in Ukraine is the culprit, yeah, but partially. Because during that expansion towards the borders of their capitalist opponent (China and its allies) NATO stepped on the landmine of the economic interests of Russian capital. So it is still a war of bourgeoisie and moreover a part of a lasting economic clash between China and USA.
Hold on, I am confused. Are you saying China is capitalist or am I misunderstanding?
…well, now you spoke it out loud. What have you done? Yes, we here in Russia do have certain different opinions on what that abomination is, but we all come to terms on the fact that this thing is not socialist. Some of our comrades even consider it imperialist. que my ban here I can even understand where they come from with those claims. Maybe sooner or later proletariat will realise that they have no friends nowadays and they can only count on themselves. But now I’m depressed, because the only supposedly adequate marxist place on the whole Internet is playing a gamble with the devil.
Bro what? China is the devil? Man, I’m buying myself a ticket straight to hell if that’s the case haha
but don’t u know that both siding things makes one feel very smart and superior, that’s what really matters
