I think we should try to be more careful, not to automatically assume that everyone who is asking questions here about China/Ukraine etc. is always arguing in bad faith. I’ve seen multiple people who were genuinely trying to ask something here and the only response they got was mockery.
I do understand that a lot of times people who come here are trying to troll or just be annoying, but we still should try to engage in them in good faith as long as there is no reason not to do so. Not everyone who isn’t from Lemmygrad is someone hostile to our ideology, and we should try to be kinder to them.
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One thing I have seen with this situation, is if someone is asking genuine questions, but gets some aggression (but also answers) they will act with confusion and frustration, not the “liberal smugness” what trolls have.
Explaining to these people that we do get a lot of trolls and people in bad faith asking similar questions is usually enough to help them understand. Someone who is actively against us from the start won’t change their mind regardless of evidence, and someone who is curious isn’t going to just automatically go away because some people were rude. The key there is some people though. If they only receive hostile responses, they will leave.
I always try to engage with people fairly, but at the same time you can usually tell very quickly when people are honestly just misinformed and when they are actively hostile/trolling. I often see people actually give long and detailed answers to folks who ask legitimate questions, even if it may seem readily apparent to us.
In many cases I think that it’s still worth it. Even if someone does not engage in good faith, we can still explain ideas in accessible ways not necessarily for the benefit of the post office to which you are replying, but for the benefit of onlookers. I’ve heard discussions at length, especially in the context of twitter, that making arguments for the audience is an effective strategy at convincing people who may be on the fence.
No even if the only thing we can communicate is that we are not unthinking drones paid by the CPC, this can go a long way in promoting an interest in Marxism.
Others being said, I think anyone is perfectly justified in not engaging with trolls simply because it’s not your job and you don’t want to do it.
To be honest, I am not really sure if this strategy makes sense here. I don’t think there are that many onlookers when you are arguing on Lemmygrad. If you are commenting on another instance that is a different story, but here, I doubt it.
I think it is actually better here than on other instances. A liberal lurker who reads reasonable arguments might actually start to listen. But on another instance, you’d just get a dozen liberals dogpiling the “redfash tankie” and any lurkers reading will just side with the majority opinion, rather than weighing the two arguments being made and analysing them.
Exactly this. And the record of the discussion on Lemmygrad can (a) be linked on other instances, to avoid having the debate amongst die hard liberals, and (b) serve as a Q&A for people searching topics on the Lemmyverse.
That said, I have started to have discussions with others (some from LG, some not) on other instances and I just ignore the wildly liberal comments. It’s hard for the anti-communists to brand us as monsters when there are public records of us having calm, collected conversations with each other that display none of the toxicity of the extreme right and centre (as horseshoe theory wrongly predicts we would exhibit).
Exactly. Conservative spaces are incredibly toxic, full of people wishing death on others for having the gall to be born a different skin colour or sexual orientation. Over here we are always in favour of minority groups, something libs claim we are not.
And the whole “Russian/Chinese bots” things falls pretty flat when most of our conversations are amongst ourselves as well. Why would China/Russia pay/program all these bots just to simulate conversation in the hope that some random US liberal will stumble upon a 3 week old conversation, start an argument and then get an angry response? Seems like a poor use of their time.
And the whole “Russian/Chinese bots” things falls pretty flat when most of our conversations are amongst ourselves as well. Why would China/Russia pay/program all these bots just to simulate conversation in the hope that some random US liberal will stumble upon a 3 week old conversation, start an argument and then get an angry response? Seems like a poor use of their time.
I mean, I’ve literally seen someone argue that Dessalines is being threatened with murder by CPC. I wouldn’t put it past them.
Oh sure, some of them would insist it is completely true, because it means we’re all here as a show just for them, the most special and important person ever. It strokes their ego.
But others will look at that and (hopefully) wonder about it. It is pure conspiracy theory logic after all, and if someone starts making the most absurd claims, some will hopefully realise how nonsensical they are.
That would be interesting data to take a look at. I assume most use lemmy similar to myself, where you mostly scroll through all federated instances and don’t pay attention to the source unless necessary (except lemmygrad). But I’m open to being proven wrong.
I sort by local and new, I’d rather engage with all the content posted from comrades first before wading into the hordes of liberals
That would be interesting. Personally I mainly focus on local stuff and just sometime look on all but not sure which is more common, at least in web UI local is the default one. But even if it was all, Lemmygrad is a relatively small instance when compared with some others, so we would probably not be in many people’s feed anyway.
I’m guilty of of this unfortunately. I try to be civil, but sometimes it just gets really tiresome dealing with the same handful of trolls following you around and sealioning into your every thread.
I try to be reciprocal and interact in a civil way with people if they’re civil themselves. I just don’t have the patience dealing with people calling me a tankie, propagandist, or whatever.
I did start just blocking these trolls and that’s probably the best solution. Out of sight and out of mind.
I think that if there is one person here that I understand losing their temperament, it would be you. Reading the endless threads on lemmy I always wonder how you don’t lose your mind arguing with some people.
❤️🔥
I don’t know about others, but I’ve learned a lot just by keeping a close eye on your interactions. It’s helped me to develop what I hope is a less hostile approach.
Not to say it isn’t difficult af sometimes. One problem is that Marxists criticise each other as much as others, it’s just that for others, it might be the first time they’ve ever encountered real criticism. So they don’t take it well. I can’t say that I always enjoy harsh criticism, either—it depends what it concerns—but at least I expect it. Others often lash out when they experience it. Then it’s all too easy to summon Lenin-when-he’s-talking-about-/-to-his-own-mentor-Kautsky. Then there are the copious trolls.
This was said about us recently (3 days ago):
As an aside, I have to like this new method of discussion many of you lemmygrad people are now employing. It’s like you had a planning meeting where somebody said “perhaps we shouldn’t be assholes, that doesn’t convince people”.
It’s mildly back-handed but it suggests that whatever we’re doing differently is working. I suspect that as the Lemmyverse exploded, a few dedicated anti-communists tried to rile us up to make sure that others would see us in a bad light. At first, we fell for some of the bait. But I think we’ve got better already. This is good as we can reach a lot of people with our seditious Marxist ways if we can out-game the trolls, etc. One good outcome would be that people come here to lurk and see how we talk to each other; it’ll be hard for people to see us negatively when every other comment here is one of concern for each others’ well-being.
That’s a really good observation. We need to work on pointing out why we disagree with people in a constructive way and to point out trolling for what it is when it happens. When I get somebody calling me a tankie or a propagandist or whatever, I now just reply pointing out that the person wasn’t actually engaging with the post, and is smearing me instead. Block and move on.
I do find that there are a lot more people who genuinely want to have a discussion and who aren’t acting like dicks. Articulating a point clearly for them without making it an attack usually results in a civil discussion. I definitely agree that there are a handful of people who hate us and who are very aggressive about it, but they’re just a small minority in practice. We should just focus on highlighting how toxic these people are for the rest of the lemmyverse.
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Indeed, maybe could add to the prolewiki and just link to it from there on
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redsails has so much useful material on it
Yeah man you post a ton of content both here and .ml and I don’t see how you don’t lose your mind in the comments at times. Keep up the good fight.
I do find most people do tend to be constructive and positive. Once I started just blocking the trolls my levels of frustration went down a lot. Learning to just not bother replying to them was the hard bit for me, and I still lapse now and then.
I genuinely like the constructive conversations on .ml actually. But I might have also made a comment here or there because I also enjoy the fight-y stuff lol. I really like the general comradery over here though. I haven’t had to block any trolls on either instance yet.
I think we’re pretty good about this, it’s pretty obvious when someone is making a comment in bad faith
Most of the time yes, but from time to time I see someone post something and the only comments they get are pretty hostile. Even if later it turns out they were just genuinely asking questions and even admitted to doing so. I think this just pushes some people away, that we could educate instead.
Of course then there are troll etc. which are different story.
we aren’t perfect, I’m sure we do pop off too hard on new people sometimes, but I read through almost every post made here and I don’t actually see it very often, even that one comment you linked wasn’t too bad, he got a meme and one sarcastic comment, and then someone actually engaging. It’s not like we told him to face the wall or anything
I agree that is not a huge problem and yes it is mostly not so harmful. I was not trying to suggest with this post that we are super terrible etc. Mostly I just wanted to say that I think we could be a bit better. In my opinion, these people are the prime target for educating. Overall, from what I’ve seen Lemmygrad has a pretty bad reputation on most Lemmy instances so if someone ventures here and is not a troll, I think we should try to be kind to them.
we have a bad reputation because we’re socialists, were the most active instance for a long time, and are still relatively more active for our size. The biggest complaint is that we’re “evil tankies”, not that we’re rude
I agree, what I wanted to say with that is that if someone from other lemmy instances come here even with our reputation, there is a good chance that it is someone who is actually interested in what we have to say.
most of it is them not paying attention to the instance they’re in
This was something the GenZhou sub was great for before it was taken down, even some troll lib/cons had conceded that they had quality discussions when they’d posted questions.
One thing I’ve started doing, if I reach an impasse/potentially confrontational argument, etc, is writing out an informative post on !genzhou@lemmygrad.ml and linking it in a short, polite reply to whomever I’m engaging with. Like this:
Or, similarly, posting a link to a discussion that we have had on Lemmygrad. Like this:
Then we can avoid the petty exchange of insults. (Which, again, I fully understand the temptation for – I’m not trying to hold myself out as a saint.)
I have tried linking to write-ups on lemmygrad (perhaps even one by you the other day), and instead I’m met with:
Stop bullshitting. I’m not going to provide links to some neonazi sources about immigration and expect you to read that either. You’re a tankie and rashist and that’s pretty evident by your various comments on those topics. That makes you an extremist and clearly irrelevant to be taken into consideration in such discussions.
Plenty of people just refuse to read a source. It’s just a continuation of the “this news source is biased therefore it’s wrong therefore nothing it says can be trusted therefore you’re a propagandist” game that they play. You can make valid points that can be independently verified and are themselves sourced, but if it’s posted on lemmygrad, or some non-Western media outlet, it automatically gets dismissed.
The number of people who honestly want to engage is seemingly very small. Most people want to shout the things they hear from their chosen news source at any unwilling victim. It’s hegemony of ideas, and they’ll happily use any underhanded tactic to enforce it instead of engaging honestly.
That’s disappointing. And it is frequent, I know. I suppose my take on this is to let people be wrong. Don’t try to ‘correct’ them. Post what you think is the truth, which could include a link to here, then leave them be. If they come back with wrecker/trolling comments, etc, it’s okay to explain what they’re doing so that others can see it. . The one’s who are curious will follow through. In my pre-Marxist days if I had read an interesting back-and-forth only to have it disrupted by someone saying, ‘Stop bullshitting…’, I’d have made up my own mind about who was doing the bullshitting. We’ve just got to trust that we’ll reach the honest ones (not the best example).
It’s just a continuation of the “this news source is biased therefore it’s wrong therefore nothing it says can be trusted therefore you’re a propagandist” game that they play.
This is the strangest thing. I have never encountered it before. Since the reddit exodus, I’m seeing it constantly on other instances. WTF?
I don’t disagree with you, btw. I’m just trying to think through how Marxists can make the best of a poor intellectual terrain.
It’s a very common American attitude (one that has increasingly spread to other countries as well unfortunately.)
US has sports team politics, sports team media, even sports team soft drink (or “pop” as they call it.)
So “their team” in the media is the unbiased “true” account, and the “other team” is the wrong one. You either watch CNN or Fox News. So when they see someone share an article that disagrees with their “team” they conclude it is wrong, because the “other team” of media is always wrong.
People in the west aren’t taught media literacy at all, and I imagine it is even worse in the US than over here. Every media source claims to be the one “true, correct unbiased” source and people basically just pick one based on vibes, they don’t cross reference them or see if there is another angle to things, or something they aren’t being told. They assume their media is the correct one telling them the correct, unbiased truth. So media that contradicts that is automatically wrong and not worthy of consideration.
Good analysis. This is exactly what it feels like. I’ve noticed a similar thing in other realms, too.
Perhaps we could have a few pinned posts with FAQs? I’m seeing the same basic questions asked over and over again. It’s becoming tiresome especially when it’s debunking cold war/china bad propaganda 101. I really loved lurking lemmygrad over the past year because of how intelligent and interesting all of the content was from an ML perspective. I stopped using my account for a while because I didn’t feel like I could add much to the discussion and just had a good time learning from others. Recently with all the liberals joining in I have to admit I’ve been baited into finding my account log in details. It’s so frustrating to read through these long discussions every other day about XYZ false media narrative but I understand there are a lot of people who have never come across conflicting information to what they were taught in school/news. It can become a bit of a drain on your patience, it might be easier if it was all focused in one post people can be directed to.
This would be super helpful! I only have base level knowledge around communism, and it’s so hard to find both information that isn’t absolute western imperialist propaganda against communism, or any nuanced critiques from communists on China/Russia/etc. I think learning about the criticisms from an ML perspective and having them readily available would be valuable, because so many people think that communists pledge absolute unwavering support to anything even somewhat perceived as communist in the media, which I know isn’t true, y’all are capable of critical thinking.
Here is a perfect example of us fucking up like this.
We have to be calm and mature and assume good faith until it’s clearly been demonstrated that there’s none. Even those people are not beyond saving. We’re the adults in the room after all.
I think this is the most important thing for communism that we can do here. I totally get that this is a space for Marxists to speak freely, but I think educating the (educatable) people who wander in should be one of our priorities. It’s work, no question about it, but education is the only way we get more Marxists. And they are certainly not going to teach it in western schools.
Che Guevara spoke a lot on this subject. He believed it was possible for any person to be a revolutionary, and a key part of bringing that out was sincerity and calm in critique and in public relations. There was no room in the cadres for people that threw temper tantrums when propagandized people didn’t believe in the platform, which is something I frequently see here. I encourage everyone to take responsibility for the way they interact with others.
The way we treat the masses is incredibly important. We cannot be misanthropic keyboard warriors who disenfranchise others at the drop of a hat, because misanthropy is fundamentally opposed to our work. You cannot work for the masses if you cannot love them as well.
If you wish to be a part of a cadre someday (which you should) I encourage you to take this opportunity you have right now to work on your public relations skills, you’re going to need it and this is as easy as it’s going to get.
When tensions rise and the masses are ready to do work, they’re not going to be led by a volatile comrade that shuts down at the mention of Uyghurs or Pol Pot. They will be led by people who can explain and disect the most flimsy narratives without trouble. Whether or not that person is honest and sincere in their analysis is another thing. That’s why you are responsible for being the best comrade you can be.
Well said. I think I need to reflect on what it means to be responsible for the way I interact with others. Wise words.
correction: ppl from other instances should be less hostile to us.
Should be, sure, but they won’t. We don’t win a people’s revolution by just demanding the people (who have been poisoned against us) accept our ideas without question, even if their questions are just “why come you support Stalin when million billion dead evil tankies? You evil bads!”
(As an aside, I know we won’t actually change anything here on lemmy, but that’s not the goal. The way I see it, it’s more important here online to practice explaining our position to people in a way they can understand so we can be more effective with that in our local communities.)
I will stop being hostile to people from other instances when they stop demonizing us
I physically can not not dunk on libs.
Bring back the sidebar and genzhou
I am not arguing against reactionaries or people who are bigoted, arguing in bad faith etc. But I’ve seen multiple times here people just now knowing something, asking and the only responses they got were too combative. I understand that it is often annoying to deal with these people, but we should at least try to educate them, as long as they are arguing in bad faith or just don’t engage with them. And not being openly hostile to them.
I am not arguing against reactionaries or people who are bigoted, arguing in bad faith etc. But I’ve seen multiple times here people just now knowing something, asking and the only responses they got were too combative.
How are you making the distinction between trolls and good faith participation?
Can you share an example from your post history where you’ve patiently educated an account seemingly engaging in bad faith?
How are you making the distinction between trolls and good faith participation?
Sometimes it is hard to tell, and I do understand that it is easy to make mistakes, but we should still try to assume that not everyone is here just to troll.
Can you share an example from your post history where you’ve patiently educated an account seemingly engaging in bad faith?
Personally, the only example I can give of my post is this https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/438417, but I don’t post here that much. But I think that a much better example of this is: https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/1165246 Here, even if you disagree with the original statement, I would argue that someone was met with too hostile response and seems to have changed his mind after he was shown proof that he was wrong. I do agree that sometimes it is hard to not just make fun of people, especially with Uighurs and China in general, but we shouldn’t automatically assume bad intentions.
Idk if it’s how the link was shared, but there are a few comments that could be relevant. Which one do you mean?
Here, even if you disagree with the original statement, I would argue that someone was met with too hostile response and seems to have changed his mind after he was shown proof that he was wrong.
I’m not sure I understand the example. Doesn’t the user in question accept the arguments while being engaged aggressively? It seems to me like this is an example of it working.
I see it kind of like a carrot/stick situation. A quantum troll (someone who you can’t tell if they’re a troll) is more likely to engage sincerely with the kind and thoughtful users precisely because they’re avoiding the interactions with the mean ones.
I personally like to start middling brusque, and ramp up or down depending on the response.
We get a huge volume of bad-faith interaction here. Especially when you sort by “new comments”.
Yes, in this case it did work. But I wanted to use it as an example of someone who was originally met with a more hostile response, even if it wasn’t warranted. Personally, if I was in his place, I would just not want to engage with us anymore. I don’t want to say with this post that we are terrible etc. but at least in my opinion people who actually come here from another instances and are not trolls are prime target for education. That is the reason I think we should try to be more kind to them.
We get a huge volume of bad-faith interaction here. Especially when you sort by “new comments”.
Interesting, I rarely see that, apart from obligatory “China bad”, “Russia putler” etc. under some news articles. But maybe that is just due to the posts I read.
I don’t think I’m seeing what you’re seeing in that interaction.
I’m seeing a smug, somewhat unkind, liberal get smacked right in the face by how little and poorly they understand. They then are directed to resources after the initial shock.
That honestly seems like a model interaction to me.
I think you and I may see different reasons to be here as well. I’m not here to proselytize.
If someone is turned away from the immortal science of Marxism-leninism by having their own energy mirrored back to them, who cares?
* edited to add: the newer comments in this thread are a good example of what comes through pretty often. Many are removed, but only after they get a number of up votes from federated instances:
No
But why? I completely understand having fun with people who are here to troll/argue in bad faith. I also completely understand just not wanting to engage with those people. But why would you argue to not try to educate people who came here in good faith?
Can you share an example of what you’re talking about?
See our other thread https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/1166824
Thanks for consolidating!
