By Tyler Lyons On My Life Before Joining the Party Long before the onset of the COVID pandemic, I was struggling with my political identity. I had been disillusioned with…
Ill simplify it for you. Marxism leninism is inherently patriotic. All sincere MLs are patriots, because they fight for their people. Only communists are true patriots. If you support capitalism, you are not a patriot, because you support leaving your people in misery. All MLs, even in imperialist nations, must be patriotic. That patriotism doesnt mean praising their imperialist regimes, it means opposing them. For all workers of the world, fighting imperialism is a patriotic duty.
This is the conclusion of the argument. The rest is quotes and articles justifying that position. Hope it helped.
Lenin disavowed “patriotism” unless specifically of oppressed, colonized nations. The Bolsheviks and the original Maoists only considered themselves “patriots” in the sense of the new socialist nations being established, and they destroyed and disavowed artifacts and the cultural narratives of capitalist Russia and Republic of China.
99 percent of “neutral” politically apathetic and oppressed groups would be suspicious of communists that call themselves patriotic, and calling yourself patriotic is an unhelpful empty phrase.
You argument is of using masking and shifting language to appease neoliberals and spit in the face of oppressed groups just to increase the power and reach of socialist groups by maybe a grand total of 2 percent, while alienating those we are supposed to be fighting for and protecting.
You can say all you want about being “patriotic” and wax sand about patriotism not being the same as praising imperialist regimes or figures, but you are still using right-wing language and neoliberal thought for no gain and all risk.
This is completely false, no classic marxist ever said this. Either that, or Mao Zedong is a “right wing neoliberal” as you say:
"Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be. The specific content of patriotism is determined by historical conditions. There is the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler, and there is our patriotism. Communists must resolutely oppose the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler. The Communists of Japan and Germany are defeatists with regard to the wars being waged by their countries. To bring about the defeat of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means is in the interests of the Japanese and the German people, and the more complete the defeat the better. For the wars launched by the Japanese aggressors and Hitler are harming the people at home as well as the people of the world.
China’s case, however, is different, because she is the victim of aggression. Chinese Communists must therefore combine patriotism with internationalism. We are at once internationalists and patriots, and our slogan is, “Fight to defend the motherland against the aggressors.” For us defeatism is a crime and to strive for victory in the War of Resistance is an inescapable duty. For only by fighting in defense of the motherland can we defeat the aggressors and achieve national liberation. And only by achieving national liberation will it be possible for the proletariat and other working people to achieve their own emancipation. The victory of China and the defeat of the invading imperialists will help the people of other countries. Thus in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism."
As Mao says, the communist MUST be a patriot, since fighting imperialism is not only in the interests of the imperialized peoples, but also in the interests of the working class of the imperialist countries. This states it clearly. All communists must be patriots, since communism is a patriotic duty.
Furthermore, literally ALL communist parties worldwide, except in the USA because you are weird, are openly patriotic. The Communist Party of Greece (KKE), a ML antirevisionist antiimperialist strong and very popular party, is openly patriotic and claims fighting imperialism is a patriotic duty. They openly state in their newspaper. Same with the Communist Party of Spain (PCE), which appealed to spanish patriotism and nationalism during the Civil War to rally the masses against fascism. The PCE retains this position to this day, they are patriots. Spain and Greece are imperialist countries, so how does your theory work again?
Links:
Here are just 2 articles from the KKEs newspaper discussing patriotism and how its fully compatible with internationalism with quotes by Lenin:
Article by the Communist Party of Spain (PCE) discussing revolutionary patriotism. The PCE is quite liberal and opportunist, but even they recognize that patriotism and communism go hand in hand. How much more evidence do you need?
You are still purposefully misusing and construing patriotism as being the same as national liberation.
Caring about the people in your country and wanting to dismantle the existing power structure to create something better isn’t patriotism.
I hesitate to trust liberal and opportunist groups, but KKE isn’t opportunist and I like them.
I still say calling national liberation struggles for international socialism is a pointless label, and Lenin decried American patriotism. In times of war, those in the imperial core should desire the defeat of their own government.
Thats what you dont understand. Patriotism has nothing to do with your government. For those in imperial core countries, revolutionary defeatism IS PATRIOTIC. Thats what Mao is saying right there: “To bring about the defeat of the japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means IS IN THE INTERESTS of the japanese and german people”. There is nothing unpatriotic about revolutionary defeatism, because revolutionary defeatism is in the interests of the people, and what is patriotism if not fighting for the interests of your people? Patriotism isnt supporting wars by your imperialist government, thats bourgeois “patriotism”, as Mao also clearly states. Every communist party around the world recognizes this, its just you weirdo yankees who deny this.
mate I think you’ve got some valid points alongside PolandIsAStateOfMind but you and them have delved into reddit/youtube-like internetspeak and extremely uncomradely behavior with people even engaging in good faith. I’m aware upthread someone was engaging in bad faith, but I’d just recommend reflecting for a second before shitting on people with questions asking about or discussing the issue from a genuine place.
I dont think i have been rude to anyone, but ok. The only person i was rude to is “Makan CPUSA”, but thats because he literally dismissed the Communist Party of Greece, a massive party for which hundreds of thousands of greek communists died for and that hundreds of thousands of greek workers put their faith in, as reactionary just because they are homophobic. This is pure yankee arrogance, it has no other name, and it should be called out, im sure youll agree.
You put words in comrade “idliketothinkimsmart”'s mouth and accused them of all sorts of damaging things. I believe being rightfully angry at an individual ITT has soured your mood relating to this whole thread over that one individual, calling comrades exceptionalist and being ‘ridiculous’ etc etc. I just don’t want to see this site circle(jerk) back around into reddit.
So why do ya think patriotism is whatgets us yanks rabid? At this point Yankee MLs can see through the “commodification”, if you will, of “democracy” and “freedom” but not “patriotism”? Is it us yanks think, patriotism equals proud of country, and country equals the empire? So being patriotic is supporting the Empire, then. Instead of let’s say for a metaphor the people are the cells of your body and imperialism is a horrendous diesease. Patriotism would be wanting the best of your body’s ability so the overthrow of the diesease. While Yank MLs think patriotism is supporting the diesease that will infect others. Hope this made sense, thanks for your work in combating us yanks narrow world view, SH24.
Thanks man, i agree with you. I dont exactly know why americans have this weird view. Some like Caleb Maupin suggest this is promoted by the CIA to divide the american left. This seemed farfetched to me, although lately im thinking its not as unlikely. It could also just be a reaction to the pervasive jingoism and chauvinism that maskerades as “patriotism” in the USA. The people who tend to be the most “patriotic” in USA, the trump alt right, are often racist and white supremacist, so i can see why US leftists would see patriotism negatively. Glad to have helped you consider different perspectives.
It also seems like that us Yanks forget minorities exist and an inability to envision the US patriotically. New Afrikans are patriotic for a new Nation in the land of North America, Natives are patriotic for their land back, Hawaiians are patriotic for their land back. But then one might ask “Aren’t they anti-patriotic for going against the states?” No! It’s in the name, United States, a hodge podge of colonies stuck together in insignificant ways due to ruling elite’s arm race if whether Black people will be normal slaves or wage slaves. From what I have experienced, this seems to be pretty well accepted from Yankee MLs, patriotism becomes controversial for white people. This is something I have been pondering and this thread is already getting long but I ll put this down from an idea I have just drafted up. These minorities are patriotic for the betterment of their people not the US, and this aligns with our definition patriotism being about communites so no contradiction here. The US has destroyed almost all culture for them, so their patriotism is consolidating and taking back what they had stolen from them. Now for white people we have no culture under capitalism. Anglos haven’t had a chance to build a culture, and feel true patriotism, and this will atomize further unless we have some sort of communist solidarity and freedom. The true white people’s patriotism is paying reparations to those they have wronged and embracing a communist future where they can finally build a culture. Now, I know I don’t have to clarify that Im not advocating for ethnostates since y’all are smart, but you never know what can happen on the internet.
The problem is when M-L parties push this patriotic line also embrace colonizer imagery and symbolism. Like, they can’t be like “bourgeois patriotism isn’t what we’re talking about,” and then wave the Yankee flag too.
Yeah exactly, its like they cant fathom that white americans are (mostly) proletarians too, and thus too feel proletarian patriotism. I personally believe the USA is a multinational nation. Many different nations, the indigenous nations, the black nation, the chicano nation, the irish nation, the english nation, the italian nation, have now all been united in 1 plurinational nation by 300 years of common history. And while yes, this history has been incredibly exploitative to some of those nations, that doesnt mean a common bond hasnt been created. In Russia, all the cultures oppressed by the Empire had nevertheless a common bond between them and the russian nation, which then resulted in the soviet nation, a common multinational nation. I personally believe a socialist USA should be based on the soviet model. All the languages suppressed in favor of anglocentrism should be revived and made official. Italian, spanish, indigenous languages, should be revived and made official languages, just like it was done in USSR. This is the type of patriotism americans should strive for imo, a patriotism that applies to all americans, english, irish, italian, black, indigenous, a common patriotism that nevertheless recognizes the right of self determination of all the nations oppressed by the bourgeois USA state.
Ill simplify it for you. Marxism leninism is inherently patriotic. All sincere MLs are patriots, because they fight for their people. Only communists are true patriots. If you support capitalism, you are not a patriot, because you support leaving your people in misery. All MLs, even in imperialist nations, must be patriotic. That patriotism doesnt mean praising their imperialist regimes, it means opposing them. For all workers of the world, fighting imperialism is a patriotic duty.
This is the conclusion of the argument. The rest is quotes and articles justifying that position. Hope it helped.
Lenin disavowed “patriotism” unless specifically of oppressed, colonized nations. The Bolsheviks and the original Maoists only considered themselves “patriots” in the sense of the new socialist nations being established, and they destroyed and disavowed artifacts and the cultural narratives of capitalist Russia and Republic of China.
99 percent of “neutral” politically apathetic and oppressed groups would be suspicious of communists that call themselves patriotic, and calling yourself patriotic is an unhelpful empty phrase.
You argument is of using masking and shifting language to appease neoliberals and spit in the face of oppressed groups just to increase the power and reach of socialist groups by maybe a grand total of 2 percent, while alienating those we are supposed to be fighting for and protecting.
You can say all you want about being “patriotic” and wax sand about patriotism not being the same as praising imperialist regimes or figures, but you are still using right-wing language and neoliberal thought for no gain and all risk.
This comment by someone else further demonstrates my position:
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/279497/comment/227690
This is completely false, no classic marxist ever said this. Either that, or Mao Zedong is a “right wing neoliberal” as you say:
"Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be. The specific content of patriotism is determined by historical conditions. There is the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler, and there is our patriotism. Communists must resolutely oppose the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler. The Communists of Japan and Germany are defeatists with regard to the wars being waged by their countries. To bring about the defeat of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means is in the interests of the Japanese and the German people, and the more complete the defeat the better. For the wars launched by the Japanese aggressors and Hitler are harming the people at home as well as the people of the world.
China’s case, however, is different, because she is the victim of aggression. Chinese Communists must therefore combine patriotism with internationalism. We are at once internationalists and patriots, and our slogan is, “Fight to defend the motherland against the aggressors.” For us defeatism is a crime and to strive for victory in the War of Resistance is an inescapable duty. For only by fighting in defense of the motherland can we defeat the aggressors and achieve national liberation. And only by achieving national liberation will it be possible for the proletariat and other working people to achieve their own emancipation. The victory of China and the defeat of the invading imperialists will help the people of other countries. Thus in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism."
Source: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_10.htm
As Mao says, the communist MUST be a patriot, since fighting imperialism is not only in the interests of the imperialized peoples, but also in the interests of the working class of the imperialist countries. This states it clearly. All communists must be patriots, since communism is a patriotic duty.
Furthermore, literally ALL communist parties worldwide, except in the USA because you are weird, are openly patriotic. The Communist Party of Greece (KKE), a ML antirevisionist antiimperialist strong and very popular party, is openly patriotic and claims fighting imperialism is a patriotic duty. They openly state in their newspaper. Same with the Communist Party of Spain (PCE), which appealed to spanish patriotism and nationalism during the Civil War to rally the masses against fascism. The PCE retains this position to this day, they are patriots. Spain and Greece are imperialist countries, so how does your theory work again?
Links:
Here are just 2 articles from the KKEs newspaper discussing patriotism and how its fully compatible with internationalism with quotes by Lenin:
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=209459
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=329397
Its in greek but just use google translate.
Article by the Communist Party of Spain (PCE) discussing revolutionary patriotism. The PCE is quite liberal and opportunist, but even they recognize that patriotism and communism go hand in hand. How much more evidence do you need?
https://www.mundoobrero.es/pl.php?id=10161
You are still purposefully misusing and construing patriotism as being the same as national liberation.
Caring about the people in your country and wanting to dismantle the existing power structure to create something better isn’t patriotism.
I hesitate to trust liberal and opportunist groups, but KKE isn’t opportunist and I like them.
I still say calling national liberation struggles for international socialism is a pointless label, and Lenin decried American patriotism. In times of war, those in the imperial core should desire the defeat of their own government.
Thats what you dont understand. Patriotism has nothing to do with your government. For those in imperial core countries, revolutionary defeatism IS PATRIOTIC. Thats what Mao is saying right there: “To bring about the defeat of the japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means IS IN THE INTERESTS of the japanese and german people”. There is nothing unpatriotic about revolutionary defeatism, because revolutionary defeatism is in the interests of the people, and what is patriotism if not fighting for the interests of your people? Patriotism isnt supporting wars by your imperialist government, thats bourgeois “patriotism”, as Mao also clearly states. Every communist party around the world recognizes this, its just you weirdo yankees who deny this.
mate I think you’ve got some valid points alongside PolandIsAStateOfMind but you and them have delved into reddit/youtube-like internetspeak and extremely uncomradely behavior with people even engaging in good faith. I’m aware upthread someone was engaging in bad faith, but I’d just recommend reflecting for a second before shitting on people with questions asking about or discussing the issue from a genuine place.
I dont think i have been rude to anyone, but ok. The only person i was rude to is “Makan CPUSA”, but thats because he literally dismissed the Communist Party of Greece, a massive party for which hundreds of thousands of greek communists died for and that hundreds of thousands of greek workers put their faith in, as reactionary just because they are homophobic. This is pure yankee arrogance, it has no other name, and it should be called out, im sure youll agree.
You put words in comrade “idliketothinkimsmart”'s mouth and accused them of all sorts of damaging things. I believe being rightfully angry at an individual ITT has soured your mood relating to this whole thread over that one individual, calling comrades exceptionalist and being ‘ridiculous’ etc etc. I just don’t want to see this site circle(jerk) back around into reddit.
Could be, maybe you are right
You’re regurgitating my point.
Please stop raging.
So why do ya think patriotism is whatgets us yanks rabid? At this point Yankee MLs can see through the “commodification”, if you will, of “democracy” and “freedom” but not “patriotism”? Is it us yanks think, patriotism equals proud of country, and country equals the empire? So being patriotic is supporting the Empire, then. Instead of let’s say for a metaphor the people are the cells of your body and imperialism is a horrendous diesease. Patriotism would be wanting the best of your body’s ability so the overthrow of the diesease. While Yank MLs think patriotism is supporting the diesease that will infect others. Hope this made sense, thanks for your work in combating us yanks narrow world view, SH24.
Thanks man, i agree with you. I dont exactly know why americans have this weird view. Some like Caleb Maupin suggest this is promoted by the CIA to divide the american left. This seemed farfetched to me, although lately im thinking its not as unlikely. It could also just be a reaction to the pervasive jingoism and chauvinism that maskerades as “patriotism” in the USA. The people who tend to be the most “patriotic” in USA, the trump alt right, are often racist and white supremacist, so i can see why US leftists would see patriotism negatively. Glad to have helped you consider different perspectives.
It also seems like that us Yanks forget minorities exist and an inability to envision the US patriotically. New Afrikans are patriotic for a new Nation in the land of North America, Natives are patriotic for their land back, Hawaiians are patriotic for their land back. But then one might ask “Aren’t they anti-patriotic for going against the states?” No! It’s in the name, United States, a hodge podge of colonies stuck together in insignificant ways due to ruling elite’s arm race if whether Black people will be normal slaves or wage slaves. From what I have experienced, this seems to be pretty well accepted from Yankee MLs, patriotism becomes controversial for white people. This is something I have been pondering and this thread is already getting long but I ll put this down from an idea I have just drafted up. These minorities are patriotic for the betterment of their people not the US, and this aligns with our definition patriotism being about communites so no contradiction here. The US has destroyed almost all culture for them, so their patriotism is consolidating and taking back what they had stolen from them. Now for white people we have no culture under capitalism. Anglos haven’t had a chance to build a culture, and feel true patriotism, and this will atomize further unless we have some sort of communist solidarity and freedom. The true white people’s patriotism is paying reparations to those they have wronged and embracing a communist future where they can finally build a culture. Now, I know I don’t have to clarify that Im not advocating for ethnostates since y’all are smart, but you never know what can happen on the internet.
The problem is when M-L parties push this patriotic line also embrace colonizer imagery and symbolism. Like, they can’t be like “bourgeois patriotism isn’t what we’re talking about,” and then wave the Yankee flag too.
Yeah exactly, its like they cant fathom that white americans are (mostly) proletarians too, and thus too feel proletarian patriotism. I personally believe the USA is a multinational nation. Many different nations, the indigenous nations, the black nation, the chicano nation, the irish nation, the english nation, the italian nation, have now all been united in 1 plurinational nation by 300 years of common history. And while yes, this history has been incredibly exploitative to some of those nations, that doesnt mean a common bond hasnt been created. In Russia, all the cultures oppressed by the Empire had nevertheless a common bond between them and the russian nation, which then resulted in the soviet nation, a common multinational nation. I personally believe a socialist USA should be based on the soviet model. All the languages suppressed in favor of anglocentrism should be revived and made official. Italian, spanish, indigenous languages, should be revived and made official languages, just like it was done in USSR. This is the type of patriotism americans should strive for imo, a patriotism that applies to all americans, english, irish, italian, black, indigenous, a common patriotism that nevertheless recognizes the right of self determination of all the nations oppressed by the bourgeois USA state.