When the revolution happens do you think it will Marxist-Leninist, because it will have become more popular as it can prescribe a new socialism for our material conditions, or more Anarchistic in character, because of the individualistic ideology of the west?
Edit: thanks everyone for your responses, answering my questions and more.
(This is pretty unorganized and will need much editing, but its basic kernels of my analysis of the potential of the US. It doesn’t really answer OP’s question of ideological revolution, but i am placing it here as people are discussing the feasibility of a US revolution)
Unlike others I don’t believe the US will be the last place to have a revolution. I would instead say it will be the place with the sharpest class struggle.
Why do I say this? When I think of de-radicalized populations I think of the Nordic Countries; They have wide social safety nets, benefit from imperialism with little guilt,–As they are “peace loving” countries who “disagree” with the US, but will never take any action.–and have defanged and normalized “Socialism”. In the ole US of A; Social safety nets are little to none, we know full and well where our tax dollars go to, and we have only recently opened our eyes to what Socialism is and what it could be. These get more and more apparent with the younger generations, who by the way, will be the ones carrying out the revolution. It’s easy to look at boomers or Gen Xers and think the population is too scared to approach socialism with an open mind, but the youth poll high for socialism. Granted they don’t know exactly what socialism is, but that is great for us. They know capitalism is bad, and they also know about the Red Scare and will distrust what the US says about socialism (if we can help them walk through the logic it’s pretty easy to get the youth to even sympathize with the soviet union!)
In the States, sure you can find the de-radicalized labor aristocratic and typically white “middle class”, but you can also find some of the most exploited or demonized members of society; Whether is it is the Indigenous Americans, Black population, Undocumented Immigrants, Immigrants in general, and the Queer community but especially Trans. I would also add the Asian American community who typically have higher incomes, will experience more and more hate as the West loses its influence to the East. Especially Chinese, we have seen what anti asian hate crimes look like at beginning of the Pandemic, and that is without the West even acknowledging the total rise of China! Women with their dwindling rights will become more and more radicalized as the Dems have gone mask off. While Neurodivergence has been heavily normalized with the internet and now TikTok, we still face hardships of the cut throat capitalist system with not being the “ideal workers”–not to mention our thought processes leading us to class consciousness.
While many of these groups may overlap, there is still a nice chunk of the population we know will have radical tendencies–and this is even without mentioning the poor white cis het men!
There are a lot of material factors that agitate the US population, what is needed is the ideological base to guide them. There won’t be a revolution soon, but what there needs to be is a massive ML foundation laid out during these times of upheaval. While we give libs a lot of shit, most Americans aren’t bigots. If you are worried about hardline Trumpists, they are a minority, a loud minority, but also a minority that is great at alienating the majority of the population. As the country moves farther right, people will look for those voices who stand adamantly against them, and that is us.
If you are considering the actual actions of the revolution here are things to think about: Gun culture has made arming ones self a pretty simple venture. The country itself (I would also add on Canada as it will fall along with the US) is huge with inefficient communication systems and geographic features such as the Rockies, Appalachia, Sierra Nevada as mountain ranges, the deserts sprawling the Southwest, and hell the Mississippi and its extensions splitting open the States, not to mention Canada and Alaska’s frozen mountainous terrain and the former’s swaths of taiga and tundra, make mass scale deployment of an organized army difficult. That is if the army even wants to fight its own people. The Pentagon has said something as a sliver of concessions like Free College would drastically lower recruitment, so imagine what a worker’s revolution would do! Plus marginalized communities are disproportionately in the military, and I would imagine they would heavily sympathize with an ML revolution, especially with the case of New Afrika!
I will leave it here for now, feel free to challenge me or ask my further thoughts. Keep in mind these are just seeds of a further analysis, I just needed to dig them up and plant them somewhere.
I actually completely agree with you, I’m glad I’m not the only one.
I don’t believe we’re on the precipice of a revolution or anything but given the right material circumstances, good organizing and mobilizing of the people, and a little luck, anything could happen in a few years time.
The contradictions are sharpening faster than ever before and they are a weapon that, if wielded properly, can deliver the blow to the US that the world needs.
If you would have told Lenin in 1914 that in just 3 short years a revolution was accomplished, he would have laughed in your face. I am not calling for head in the clouds idealism, or that America is going to collapse next month or something like that. My point is that it will take work and time, that revolution does not occur spontaneously, and that if we do this correctly I genuinely believe the US doesn’t have to be the last to fall.
Some factors that contribute to the success of a revolution.
Am I missing anything?
So what do you think we should do then? Are there any steps to at least get a foothold in the class struggle? You mention all these problems, but what are the solutions? Are we just at a point where our first steps are to explain and organize? Or just wallow in defeat?
Theres a rise in the Labour Movement, hell the Guardian has stated it here, that there is the largest support of Unions since 1965. And the strike numbers keep going up. The ruling class haven’t made concessions yet as the movement isn’t strong enough (as of now and which we can change!), plus as the US loses its hegemony on the periphery the bourgeoisie will have to sacrifice more for each sliver of concession!
The point on not being able to cripple the economy makes a lot of sense. But again what will happen as the US loses its grip? Wouldn’t the peripheries shift to anti-imperialism effectively work as a cripple to the economy? And as I am getting more educated on the Labour aristocracy i will know more in depth, truly there will be material conditions to swing fully into imperialist talking points. BUT, that is happening anyway so it’s more feasible to educate the populace and radicalize them as the conditions worsen BEFORE they turn to the right wing. I toe the Panther line when it comes to the unemployed, as they can be the most radical champions of the working class!
You say the US is the most pro-imperialist and anti-communist country on Earth. That may very well be true, but let’s dig into the average American thought process. Americans know for a fact that their country has its own interests against the world. Americans also sympathize with communism, problem is they think it only works in theory. They unknowingly support Imperialism when they see “Evil Putin is invading the innocent Ukraine and Xinnie the Pooh with freedom loving Taiwan!” not because they want to have a total US hegemony but because they see them as imperialists themselves. Surprise, surprise, people don’t like wars. While i will admit the escalation in Ukraine is a huge set back for anti-imperialist education, we can use the differing narratives that have been provided by the US over and over again to snap them into class conscious. It would be best with China, as it is an AES state instead of Russia which even takes some leftists convincing to critically support. I believe the socdem youth are ripe for radicalization, after all it will be them and their children to further propagate the truth and organize. While it may seem effective to convince Gen Xers, as they are the ones mainly run things right now, spreading an ideological base within the youth, who are growing up in the time of the fall of US hegemony and the internet, is the most productive use of our efforts.
What will happen with their organized class when the exploitable resources in their hands slip through their fingers? At the moment, They are too organized for a revolution to be successful, but wouldn’t they start dividing up the remaining resources at best, and at worst be waged into a full civil war against each other?
The bourgeois democracy is stable, but again only as long as the relations of Imperialism exist to supplement them. You mention that the most politically active people are drained by the theatre of the shit show. So we know these specific people are the type who keep up to date on things and at least try, in their own ways, to be politically educated? Can we not show these people the stability of and Dialectical Materialist outlook? I remember when I was a “lib”–I was pretty disillusioned even then–there were some traces of political thought that made sense. A centralized government that provides for you, to have the ability to reap what you sow in your work, and to have women’s full sexual autonomy. Problem was these were all spread out over the “sides” of the aisle. Bernie advocated for the first, but conservatives had pushed the bootstrap mentality, and then the libertarians and liberals advocated the last. But almost all of them advocated for small business owners. Why? It is a way for us to sympathize with our semi proletarian brethren, without endangering the structure of Capital. “Small business owners” was our short breath of class consciousness. Being able to reap what you sow from your own work, while not being crushed down by the big capitalist. It was idealistic, but showing people that they CAN have a better life with out exploiting others made the working class feel content. Now when we open these politically active libs to a world outside Capital, they will start to realize what interests they really have and not limiting themselves to the allusive mystery of “small business owners”.
Also I wouldn’t say the US has the strongest military on Earth. The most funded one sure, but most of that is kick backs to the MIC. The weapons are known to break, the MIC has a trend of making them “customizable”. Most of it goes into its Navy and the Airforce, which can’t hold a lot of ground, but is suited for its imperialist ventures. Also Nato’s stockpiles are being drained out right now. Now the domestic police are different situation, they are very much a threat. But their crackdowns and abuses will just have sharpened the contradiction. We saw even with Liberal co opting, what massive uproar the Murder of George Floyd caused. And what did the Biden administration do in response to the masses? They increased the Police Budget! This will only further exacerbate the struggle with the Police, and more faith lost in the dems! Organizing in a police state seems impossible, but yet don’t we see the massive mobilizations of Palestinians in their struggle against the Israeli state? Communists have always been persecuted, but that just adds to our own struggle!
Your average military members actually don’t get paid a lot, they have many concessions but even then that’s a carrot on a stick. Its common to hear grunts speak of “You only join the military if you are dumb or if you are poor”. Sure the highest members receive great sums of money, but you can’t lead soldiers, who joined for the concessions, to fire on people who are fighting to improve the conditions which led them to join in the first place. Not to mention oppressed minorities are overrepresented in the military
This ties in nicely with a secession movement. We know one of the most radical regions in the US is New Afrika. I would imagine many of the soldiers will defect to the side which represents them. Plus many of the training establishment lies in its regions so if the cards are played right, they could hinder mobilization possibilities.
Now I doubt a revolution will happen anytime soon, could possibly be multiple decades. But what I want to instill is revolutionary optimism. Sure I am young and I am naive, but if we don’t act like it’s possible then it will never happen. Id say Morale is the greatest factor for us in the States. Our conditions will continue to worsen, that will make the populous revert to mask off imperialist war mongering. You are right, us comrades in the States are drastically outnumbered, and are painted as crazy lunatics who bash their head into a wall over and over again, thinking that will fix all the world’s problems. But we must hold our heads high and proclaim our communist beliefs to the masses. Yes, at first they will take everything you say as a grain of salt. Yes, they will start repeating debunked propaganda. Yes, we will be putting a target on our backs. But isn’t that what we signed up for when we called ourselves Communists? Our talking points will be put into the attic of their brains, collecting dust. But when that moment happens–and I know you know the moment as we all have experienced it as MLs–when every little sense of liberalism is put under inspection, and all the theory taught to you through other Communists struggle is squashing that liberalism out of frame; Your brain just clicks. One day those liberals who denied your input to be nothing of value, will come back to you asking to lead them along the path of revolution. After all we have to challenge their world view, how can they learn if they are unaware of the possibilities?
Now what if we benefit from imperialism too much to be radical? Even if thats the case it’s not an end all be all. Was Engels unable to be radical from his class interests? What about Zhou Enlai. Hell what about you and I? We have happened to be radicalized in the most anti-communist State in history. Are we special? I don’t know about you, but I am not. No but think about it; We are radicals in the place where your material analysis says it should be near impossible. I find that… hopeful. Even in the strongest most allusive bourgeois state, class consciousness seeps through. It is beautiful, hope. One thing stronger than fear.
TLDR: Revolutionary Optimism, lol
No but Muad, I respect you comparatively older comrades who have paved the way for the younger people like me. Thank you, sincerely. I would still be a Western Leftist or god forbid a lib if it wasn’t for Lemmygrad. :)
I greatly appreciate your revolutionary optimism comrade. My opinion on the unlikelihood of communism coming about in western courtiens comes from organizing for several years in the US, but I still do it and feel that even if it’s hopeless, we should still do it, in the spirit of Huey P Newton’s Revolutionary suicide. We also have to be real tho, the BPP were the last genuine attempt that had any traction, and we saw how quickly it was crushed, and how quickly other movements in western countries get strangled in the cradle. Many a US comrade has been killed, imprisoned, or died destitute, in their false hope of a revolution happening there. The only ones that survived, like Assata, or Bill Haywood, did so because they escaped / sought asylum elsewhere.
It may surprise you to know that I share your revolutionary optimism… just not with respect to the US or the imperialist countries. Just as capitalism had many “false starts” transitioning out of feudalism, so has communism. But the arc of history inevitably will turn towards communism. These transitions are not speedy, as Stalin said:
Communism will win globally, and it pretty much has already surpassed the US. The western star is waning, and the red star is on the rise politically and economically, in China, Vietnam, SE Asia, latin america, and Africa.
Even if the masses of the people were to suddenly ideologically believe in communism, it really doesn’t make a difference, because they have no economic power (since the export of production by the late 1990s). Western populations are only useful as consumers, not producers, and US capitalists have other markets to sell to. US citizens are now a mostly unnecessary class, a surplus population, more of a hindrance than anything, which is why you see them trying to kill us off as fast as possible with the lax COVID policy. No amount of dinner-table conversations are going to suddenly make us economically powerful.
They don’t need our expertise or talents, so fuck’em I say. We should give our talents and energies to communist or global-south countries, who are in need of technical expertise, communist literacy, union-organizing, and labor-power. Western countries are a sinking ship, and its up to us to get on lifeboats and leave while there’s still time. The imperialist countries are eating themselves, and will inevitably depopulate like all empires do anyway (The city of Rome went to 5% of its peak population within like 200 years).
I respect your points, comrade. Like having doubts about any traction inside the core from your own experience; and especially with wanting to move to communist and global south countries where we see physical progress, and of course to escape persecution from with the core.
But for me personally, It feels… wrong to uproot and leave, even if to stay it were in vain. I don’t think it necessarily is. I think there needs to be a remnant of the radical left–underground in the worst case–to put up at least some sort of internal struggle in different scenarios that would occur with the Red Star taking over: A. to severely protest any efforts by the state to drag us into a humanity ending war. B. To possibly take over any industry that would be placed back in the core if they couldn’t exploit the periphery anymore. C. To protect innocents from any rabid fascist dogs being let loose. And D. of course passing on Communism within the core. Somebody will have to stay in the States. There will always have to be a struggle. Sure the need for life boats will come at some point. But feels wrong for me as a communist to get on those life boats before anyone else. Hell, if instead of me being the vanguard of some revolutionary movement maybe instead my job was to usher as many people to get to safety. Not to mention i don’t have the means to leave if i wanted to.
Still tho, i am comfortable with sacrificing my own life. I believe all comrades worth their shit are. Not mention the reason why the Panthers were crushed were because they posed a threat, a real threat of revolution, not because it was false hope. And I would be honored to go out in the same way, if that what it took.
I don’t have much else to say that I didn’t already, at least not much coming to mind. This thread seems to have come to its natural conclusion, and yes a question of revolution in the US will come up again, as it always does. As I said, if you feel it is best to leave for the AES states and Global South, i respect you. I whether of choice or circumstance will stay here, and will fight for revolution till the bitter end.
Take care, Muad.
Not an expert on the US, but I instantly thought about the second one, yeah. Some of the superstrucure’s elements look promising, but it seems like a country-wide case of “workers going on strike when it’s cheaper to fire the lot of them and hire new ones”.
Gotta work ideologically with the American techbros, weird as it might sound. The US is building semiconductor factories as a safety net for when they heat up Taiwan conflict.
Great to hear others feel the same!
I would like to add that if you (not you Teezy just in general) think a revolution is impossible in the States, then it will be impossible. You are already going in that all organizing and propagating is in vain. That is no good for leading the working class. There needs to be revolutionary optimism!
Organizing is essential for us, problem is there’s little amount of experienced ML vets who have practical knowledge to pass on. The info i can find is that there’s only around 5,000 members for the CPUSA, and for the PSL i can’t find any information with them on members or branches, but main take away is dwindling numbers. I am too young to actually join an org but in the mean time Im theoretically preparing myself.
I am also an open communist and strike discussion with my peers. Maybe its because of the place i hold in my peer group, but I have found people at least paying attention to what I have to say. Something I do find is that most people have class conscious tendencies, but lack the initiative to question media and develop their own thought process or god forbid read theory. This will be an issue, especially with the more privileged strata that are prone to anarchism.
I think i had something else to say but my brain went all scattered and it went away, ah well.
Thanks, I needed a little revolutionary optimism
I try
I challenge the notion that Americans aren’t bigots. Most Americans just aren’t aware of their bigotry. Something US liberals constantly preach to conservatives is that one can still be bigoted without personally hating a minority. And they’re right about that. The trouble is that they are so confident that they are absolved from that fact themselves and fail to see America’s current imperialism as a direct continuation of its settler colonial past. It’s something that will be an obstacle for true ideological breakthroughs as long as they keep letting the Democratic Party define and weaponize “social justice.”
Hopefully Biden’s and Congresses antagonistic response to the current rail strike will push a few more away.
I believe you are right here. I guess what I meant was, most Americans aren’t trying to be bigots or their hearts are in the right place, instead of openly minority hating with a vengeance bigots. We can actually work with the first, instead of the rabid dangerous animals of the latter.
And as you say, they need to wake up from the lies and lip service of the Democrats to understand the root of their bigotry, and how to fight that. Thankfully, the Biden Administration is gifted with alienating its audiences.