Thoughts?
Don’t agree with his assessment at all pretty much, but still interested what yous think about that stance, because really I’ve not seen much theory based discussion on the topic since the early days of the conflict.
Thoughts?
Don’t agree with his assessment at all pretty much, but still interested what yous think about that stance, because really I’ve not seen much theory based discussion on the topic since the early days of the conflict.
For those who downvoted this can you offer a response I would be curious to know what you diagree with ? If I left something vague in my original comment please point it out.
I swear i didn’t downvote you, but there is something strange in your comment: when you say we shouldn’t support either side, but instead only take advantage of the situation. As you are acknowledging russian action has positive impacts, wouldn’t support for russia at this time be the correct posture to take advantage of the situation?
Not really as we aren’t Russian nationalists or chauvinists, we are Communists. This is an opportunity to bring clarity to the working class. To take full advantage of the situation we must call out the war for what it is a Capitalist war that the working class is forced to fight. In turn, we must organize and agitate to raise the class consciousness of the working class in preparation for revolution or in the short term to simply strike back.
So the next time an imperialist country engages in military, economic or information war against another weaker capitalist country who is resisting their dominance, we should not support them on the grounds they are also capitalist? I hate nationalism as much as you, but I consider this a matter of practicality.
There are two types of capitalist countries.
The countries in the second group do not become imperialist simply because they are capitalist countries; and even their nationalisms cannot be equated with those of the richer countries, whose wealth depends on the super exploitation and low wages of a much larger number of countries and people.
Russia does not fit into the first category, it is not engaged in finance capital imperialism and surplus value extraction from other nations.
I concede the point of Russia being imperialist, but does that really change the main thrust of my position. Does changing it from Imperialist war to Capitalist war change what I am talking about? If not then it’s a moot point. We still shouldn’t support either because we are communists we don’t support capitalist countries throwing the working class at one another for their ploys.
Again, you are assuming that every war a capitalist country makes must necessarily be nefarious, which is a false premise. Also, you are equating all nationalisms as equal.
First of all, Russia has every right to cripple the Ukrainian military for killing people in the Donbass region with impunity for over a decade. Neo nazi Ukrainian militaries and paramilitaries have killed about 6k to 10k people. Were you not aware of this?
Secondly, Russian nationalism more than any other country has a proletarian character, with most of the country nostalgic for its soviet past. They have no ambitions other than having a stable border country that isn’t going to keep killing russian-speaking civilians, as Ukraine has been doing.
This “we don’t support any capitalist war!” is a baby-level take, only possible by completely ignoring the different interests, types, and histories of the countries involved. The “working class” of Ukraine still has a nazi / banderist government that keeps sending troops into the donbass.
The US has couped dozens of capitalist countries who go against US interests. The retaliation of those countries is wholly justified.
Are you serious all you have done is fallen into the camp of one capitalist country against the other which is not a position a communist should hold. “Baby level take” Okay read this then https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/newspape/themilitant/socialist-appeal-1939/v03n21/lenin.htm it still applies to this day. Revolutionary defeatism is the only line that any communist should take during capitalist wars.
So you would also have called for the revolutionary defeat of Iraq, Afganistan, Chile, Venezuela, Grenada, Ethiopia, Syria, Libya?
All of these are / were predominantly capitalist countries, attacked by western powers.
So like I said in another comment we must support the causes that weaken imperialism not those that strengthen it. Revolutionary defeatism is employed when the imperialists go to war. I previously yielded the point on Russia being Imperialist, but Preston Maness’ comment and having watched the portion of the video dealing with this question forced me to change my opinion as it seems that Russia is Imperialist by the definition that you use. I do not support the USA’s invasion or attempted coups to make the countries colonies or semi-colonies. I can accept that the byproduct of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine weakens Nato, but in turn it Strengthens Russia. I do not dismiss that the USA is the leading member of the imperialist block, but that does not make Russia anti-imperialist, it’s a rising imperialist power that cooperates with developing countries for its benefit. Remember the game that is being played is one of power politics. We are not players in this game, but we can wreck their game. That is our job whether you accept it or deny it. We are communists and as such we stand with the working class of all countries against Capitalism in all its forms. Picking a side in this imperialist conflict is nothing but campism and attempting to equate this imperialist struggle with the struggle of colonized countries for their self-determination from the largest imperialist power is not the same thing. Comrade, it’s really time for some self-criticism; analyze and go over Lenin, Stalin, and others who have dealt with this topic before. I do not claim to know everything, but I don’t think continuing this comment thread will be of help to anyone. If you wish to continue this even after all I’ve said, make a substantial criticism of my position. If you are correct I will change my opinion if not I will not reply. Have a good one comrade.
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The nationalization of industries isn’t really a sign of trending away from capitalism, it’s simply a way for the state to take control of their resources away from external corporations( sometimes it occurs because of inefficiency within the economic sphere). This can be seen in Mexico in that it’s capitalist but has had nationalized oil for what is going to be close to a century now. I am not too sure about the politics of Russia at the moment, but we must remember that every state is simply the representative of the class that holds power. What I mean by this is that it’s either a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie or a dictatorship of the proletariat. This is an overgeneralization, but most states fit into one of these two categories.
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I think someone is just downvoting all the comments. If you look through this post you’ll see a bunch of comments that for some reason have a single downvote. Even your comment that I’m replying to has 1 downvote, lol.
You won’t get one. Unfortunately, a great many comrades have chosen to ignore Lenin’s lessons on imperialism in favor of a philistine “America bad, Russia good” analysis.
uh huh, then explain how them calling “the battle over ukraine is an imperialist war between Nato and Russia” follows Lenin’s lessons?
How is the Russian side of this war imperialist? @RedFields@lemmygrad.ml
I would rather give our comrades the benefit of the doubt on this one.
I wouldn’t. I’ve had my comments on this matter silently removed from threads–as in, not even showing up in the modlog-- before (and have had them removed completely, a problem I will remedy below shortly), on this particular post from a month ago:
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/190301
Notice how links to specific comments I’ve made don’t work; they revert back to the top-level post:
But I’ll happily explain, again, why I think this is an imperialist war on both fronts:
From Lenin:
Both NATO and Russia meet these five features handily.
Counter-arguments so far mostly boil down to variations on changing the names of things and thinking that changes the things themselves (something Engels warned us against):
China sells resources to the U.S. and Nato as well, is victimized by sanctions, and is willing to use force to defend itself and its allies from capitalist states.
None of these mean China is capitalist or imperialist. No one is denying Russia is a capitalist country, but Russia is providing resources and labor to imperialized countries for relatively small amounts of debt. I see your point but its a stretch.
Your right and you put it in a far better way than I could have managed. Thanks, comrade. I needed this have a good night mate.
Just curious, what does “Philistine” means in English? In context it seems it is some sort of “Black/White thinking mentality” or something.
That’s basically what I’m going for, yes. I intend it as a derogatory term for those that refuse to engage honestly and deeply with the matters at hand. I suppose I could also just say something else like “neo-Kautskyites.”
I see. It’s just that I, as a non-Anglo nor English-speaking expert, and into history, the only way I knew about Philistine was the mixed semitic Canaanite/Semitic people mixed with Sea immigrants/colonials from possibly the Hegean Sea that later in history the Romans called Palestinia/Palestine.
That’s categorically not true. The vast majority of leftists here only support Russia critically. Russia is a capitalist hellhole, and Putin is a maniacal reich-wing douchebag and he surely has ulterior motives. But to call or insinuate that Russia is imperialist is dishonest nonsense.
That you’ve been downvoted to hell here should dissuade you of the notion that most folks here “only support Russia critically.”
I’ve got less downvotes than you by a mountain’s worth. But those downvoting me were merely proving themselves wrong anyway. Your dick-measuring contest is stupid.