You probably know how this basically went.
So this guy was in class and he had a shirt of Karl Marx. I said “Based!” and told him that he should get a Lenin shirt next. He said that Lenin was authoritarian, so we argued about whether Lenin was good or not and whether “authoritarianism” was required to succeed in a socialist revolution. I even told him to read “On Authority” and he still didn’t agree with me.
Some gems:
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“He (Engels) is saying that authoritarianism is required DURING the revolution, not after.” I tried to explain to him that such “authoritarianism” was also required to SECURE the proletarian state after the initial violent revolution, but apparently that went over his head.
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“You’re not a leftist, you’re far-right. You just use leftist rhetoric. You’re just like Nazis.” The classic red fash tankie line.
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“Killing fascists is bad because killing people for their different political beliefs is always bad. You are basically doing genocide.” He literally (if I recall) said that violence is required in a socialist revolution but all of a sudden if we do violence against fascists, which are harsh enemies of workers, that’s bad and us letting them off the hook totally isn’t going to lead to them becoming stronger. He said Lenin was bad because he “murdered political opponents.” (I assume he is referring to the Red Terror.)
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“Wouldn’t all the killing done in a Leninist nation cause similar destabilization as when the USA does imperialism such as in Iraq?” I have yet to see such destabilization in socialist nations, only exceptions being in Cambodia and when the Warsaw Pact nations fell to capitalism.
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“You aren’t fighting the bourgeoisie, you are fighting the workers.”
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I defined fascism as socialists define it: an open terroristic capitalist dictatorship in response to workers’ movement. Therefore, former AES nations and not even the current USA (yet) can be considered fascist. But he said “You’re just playing the definition game” or something like that.
This young man is very intelligent, I’ve got to admit. I can only hope he shares his wisdom with the socialists of the third world, to tell them why the evil Leninist line is just far-right and that they need to embrace his enlightened version of Marxism in order to succeed.
What I’ve learned (don’t take this as admonishment) as a ML is that you should always not seek to argue with “western leftists” but rather discuss and ask a few questions here and there which will help guide them.
From reading your account, it seems your conversation was confrontational. As an ML you have access to more information and have more developed and well-backed ideas about the nature of society and this creates an imbalanced power dynamic in any discussion, which is typically very frustrating for you but especially the person you are talking to.
This leads to often unproductive ways of conversing (i.e. confrontational) that may push your friend away from your goal of moving in the correct direction.
I doubt this sort of conversation is your intention but it’s something that can take a while to become conscious of when having these conversations.
So for example, when he says “authority is required only…yayayaya etc” you can, instead of going “Actually Engels means THIS”, you can say “I think he probably means more that blahblah etc., what do you think about that”.
I mean for all I know it could have been your opposite who was using it as an opportunity to “dunk” and thus was being confrontational. But in any case you must be prepared for any western leftist to not be a real socialist yet, and for them to have many bad takes that you have to navigate, or be patient with. Save your dunks for performance and people you don’t actually like.
I love your comment. I have learned myself that we can’t just lecture our worldview at others to convince them, we must gradually guide them in the right direction.
I like to politely ask questions that I already know the answer to, but the answers to them should hopefully help open the mind of the listener. Like, “what might have been the outcome of the russian civil war if lenin HAD immediately dropped all ‘authoritarian’ tactics immediately after the revolution? Same question for WW2 and the nazi invasion of the USSR? Or how might the Paris commune have turned out differently if they HADN’T immediately dropped their ‘authoritarian’ strategies?”
Some of the other claims they made are just simply verifiable claims which you can press for futher evidence or details. “Specifically who were the political opponents that Lenin killed and why did he do that?” “What particular right-wing goals do you think I have? What exactly have I said that is ‘just like Nazis’?”
Ask questions like an English test asks questions about a book you’ve just read. Questions that make the answerer think more deeply. Then if/when they cite false information from western liberal propaganda, be prepared to politely correct them with verifiable evidence and even have some further questions like “well if X was the case, then wouldn’t Y and Z follow? Why do you think these things don’t add up?”
Exactly what you wrote. I’ve radicalized a lot of friends over the years by not picking battles and by just being open about what I am. If there’s any anticommunist comment from a western leftist in my circle I just politely disagree without trying to argue. You gotta wait until people are accessible and actually invite you into the conversation first by genuinely asking about your views. Then try and lead with questions, preferably not leading questions though, if that makes sense.
The goal is to actually make them feel smart, not dumb, by allowing them to come to their own principled conclusions. And for that to happen they need to feel safe in the conversation first.
What I’ve learned (don’t take this as admonishment) as a ML is that you should always not seek to argue…
Persuasion level 100
He said that Lenin was authoritarian
This is the moment in which I would have walked away.
What kind of class was this? How old are the two of you?
It was a computer class. I am 18, have no idea how old he is, I believe he is younger though.
Well, you both are more advanced than my generation were at that age, however just like us the learning process still has much to go and will go. I remember when I was your age or so, I was also a radlib who believed I was a socialist. I didn’t know the meaning of the term. They will develop with time. My advice is to bring in Marx quotes and Lenin quoting Marx and Engels to help “prove Lenin’s case” to them. And as hard as it is I would recommend not being insulting, even if you don’t win them over and if they are insulting towards you.
Do you know their/their parent’s class? Prol or labor aristocrat/pette bourgeois?
I have no idea about their personal life (aside from the fact he’s got a couple chicks, hehe) so I don’t know their parent’s class.
I know you didn’t ask whatsoever but my parents are definitely prole. In fact, neither of them are even employed, they survive because they collect government money. My dad is old and wants to work but it is hard because he is a felon. My mom has a disability, has to go to all these doctors, she gets money as long as I’m still in school, so going to work right now would actually make her poorer, my brother has a full-time job so he helps out as well. I have a part-time job (can’t go full-time due to school, want to finish it first) and it has made me even more confident in Leninism. I still actually like my job and doing the work and love my co-workers (even the managers) but there’s always the main problem that every worker there is exploited by the lazy person at the very top.
That’s ok. If they’re middle class, they are arguing from a position which reflects their economic interests and so only poverty will wake them from their haze. If they are prol, then this is simply a matter of liberal tendencies of which we are all in the process of purging within ourselves. It’s a process we all go through.
The honeymoon phase of labor is amazing, it reminds us all that we are indeed productive beings. It’s a part of the position of being new to laboring to see the positives in it and not fully understand the negatives our class echoes day in and day out on say…antiwork for example. This comes in time and experience of being exploited, screwed over, used, lied to, manipulated, and abused by the bourgeois class. This process also demonstrates that it is not our nature to hate labor or to see labor as a negative experience, it is the conditions of capitalism and the bourgeoisie who make us see things this way. I believe part of being a Marxist is helping to remind people that labor doesn’t have to be misery, it’s the current conditions which have “taught” our class this.
I would say enjoy this time and expect the various negative aspects to come as those are the conditions for now.
Having started a new job as a cashier I’ve been thinking about this pretty heavily, the intrinsic value of labor itself - problem, solution, problem, solution. It can be like a fun little puzzle if you allow it to be.
I went into working age already completely disillusioned with this country and the concept of labor entirely, so it’s an… interesting experience attempting to resolve my own internal contradictions regarding how I feel about working at all. Also disabled and wish I could focus on creative work instead of… “thank you for shopping with Brand, have a nice evening” for 8 hours to completely ungrateful assholes. (Most people are nice, tbf.)
Labor that directly benefits us and our loved ones is always worthwhile - this is a mantra I have been repeating to myself to encourage myself to continue to do chores and go to work. Of course, when I go to work, I’m only benefiting myself and my loved ones because I’m making money, a substantial amount of which is being siphoned off of my and all my coworker’s paychecks. So it’s difficult to stay focused and keep wanting to work, you know? This shit can be miserable. Main drivers right now are 1. not starving to death and 2. my workplace is technically unionized so I’m hoping to find a way to get involved (…infiltrate, hehehe) there - and the best union organizers are those invested in their coworkers and their labor.
Real Stakhanovite hours from me recently, except my hard work and upbeat attitude are benefiting billionaires first and foremost instead of the socialist cause… just excellent.
