• worldwidewave@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    “Israel has a right to self-defence, but it has to be done within international law … cutting water, cutting electricity, cutting food to a mass of civilian people is against international law,” said EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell on Tuesday (10 October).

    He repeated the view more than once in his press briefing. “The Palestinian people are also suffering,” he added.

    An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. This cycle of violence and repression needs to stop.

    • loathsome dongeaterA
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      1 year ago

      It’s not an eye for an eye though. Israeli atrocities over the decades dwarf what has been inflicted upon them by Palestine and Hamas.

      • ReluctantMuskrat@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        It’s not an eye-for-an-eye because we shouldn’t consider targetting civilians an option. If you want to call militias that target civilians terrorists, be consistent regardless of what uniform they are wearing.

        • EtherealMoon @lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          This is the only take that actually matters. If Ukraine responded to Russia by bombing villages and shooting civilians, they would not have such near-worldwide support. If Israel wants to truly be better than “savages” then they need to act like it.

        • loathsome dongeaterA
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          1 year ago

          Probably should not consider the actions of a British appointed Mufti in a League of Nations mandated Palestine in the interest of not being disingenuous.

          • CommanderM2192@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            What’s disingenuous about a man who the Palestinians/Arabs agreed to follow who was in favor of genociding Jews? You think they actually gave a fuck about who the British said was a leader or not? They obviously didn’t care about the mandate for an independent and free Israel. Fucking hypocritical, being disingenuous yourself.

              • Locrin@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                It is so sad when people run out of arguments and devolve into kindergarten insults.

                • loathsome dongeaterA
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                  1 year ago

                  It’s so sad when fellow shit for brains white knight for each other over an argument implying that a unilaterally appointed leader by a colonial power represents popular wills and attitudes of the colonised. Especially sad when a fellow shit for brains whitewashes Holocaust by implying that I should waste my time repudiating an argument saying that an anti-semetic Mandatory Palestinian leader had a meaningful enough hand in the Holocaust. Heartbreaking when they want me to rim their fellow shit for brains’ assholes despite blatant Islamophobia.

      • Basuliic@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        So it an eye for an eye from Palestinian side and should be stopped!

        • loathsome dongeaterA
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          1 year ago

          Would be better to discuss this in terms grounded in reality rather than papering over idioms with clever gotchas.

    • chakan2@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      That’s the point. The game is to be the last man standing with at least partial vision.

    • Locrin@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      It is a pretty clown face move to attach those that supply your water, electricity and fuel.

      • wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one
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        1 year ago

        By that logic, the other way this ends is the dissolution of israel.

        They cant seem to stop themselves from murdering and pillaging their neighbors, right? So they have to go. Right? Thats matching your logic just fine.

      • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        There’s another possibility.

        Lebanon gets involved. Then Iran. Then the US. Then Iraq. Then Afghanistan. Then Russia. On and on until it’s WW3

        But no one wants to talk about that

        • renlok@lemmy.ml
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          If the EU and the US have managed to avoid getting directly involved in Ukraine Vs Russia and starting WW3 that way, there is no way this conflict will start anything that big.

        • PowerCrazy@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Yes I’m sure we need to care about great power Afghanistan “getting involved” in Gaza. We should also be wary of Mongolia, and probably Lesotho as well.

          Russia/Iran/US/EU are all already “involved” in with Israel. US/EU/Israel want to culturally genocide palestine and Russia/Iran want to hurt the US/EU. This isn’t ww3, and if push comes to shove none of the major players are going to start ww3 over Israel or Palestine.

        • P03 Locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          Nobody talks about it, because it’s not realistic. This will be treated as another proxy war, with countries providing aid, but not actively fighting.

          The US and Russia are already involved. Russia likely started this mess, and US is already sending munitions to its ally.

          • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            What’s unlikely about Hezbollah getting involved? Or Iran? Or the Taliban?

            It can easily inflame into a massive regional war, and there go oil prices. With oil prices go food prices. With both, inflation slips out of control. Now there’s fuel shortages and hunger everywhere, heightening tensions.

            This is a powder keg. Wake up

      • davepleasebehave@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        they really could have just left them alone. It would have been exactly the same result with the Palestinians blaming those in Palestine for their issues.

        instead they meddle and build illegal settlements.

      • StalinIsMaiWaifu
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        1 year ago

        Get this racist bullshit outta here, the middle east is literally one of the cradles of civilization and throughout its history has been a place of tolerance and learning, the barbarity overwhelmingly comes from the outside

        You’re also using an example of one of the earliest law codes we know to show barbarity, fucking unreal

        • Neuromancer@lemm.ee
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          The exact opposite before the law, if a family member was killed, the other tribe may go kill the whole family.

          That is what eye for an eye is about. Tolerance.

          Maybe you should brush up on your history. Blood feuds are still on going In the Middle East.

          It’s like communism. It’s brutal for the sake of being brutal

      • faltryka@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Israel isn’t just denying Hamas water, they are denying Palestinians water. That includes children and infants and uninvolved innocents.

                • FaceDeer@kbin.social
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                  1 year ago

                  You’re making vague statements that the children of Gaza should be evacuated, but that’s not a solution unless you can tell me where they would be evacuated to.

                  There are two and a half million people in the Gaza Strip. What place is going to accept two and a half million Palestinian refugees? Bear in mind that millions of Palestinians have already ended up as refugees throughout the region and that is already considered a huge problem. Nobody wants even more to deal with. So what country? Even if there were magical teleporters to get them there and everyone was willing to leave their homes forever, who’s going to take them in and support them?

      • PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        Few people are worried about hamas. The concern is for the women and children. The people with no say in any of this. It’s not a crime to refuse to resupply an enemy, it is a crime to starve innocent people.

          • grte@lemmy.ca
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            1 year ago

            Actually the only hope of truly lasting peace is the dissolution of Israel and the creation of a new state that doesn’t limit citizenship and suffrage along ethnic or religious lines.

            • BluJay320@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              1 year ago

              This. Israel never should have been there in the first place. It’s stolen land, ruled by a tyrannical apartheid regime.

          • HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            Noone wins a war of occupation. You either learn to live with conquered peoples and give them access tibequal rights (Roman empire) or completely erase the local population (Europeans in North America).

      • HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        Same rhetoric as German occupiers claiming that they would not execute civilian hostages as long as Resistance fighters would give themselves up. Sorry for the Goldwyn point but you made it a low hanging fruit.

  • Infamousblt [any]@hexbear.net
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    1 year ago

    “And in response we will send 100 billion in lethal aid directly to Israel.”

    Israelis are doing a genocide in Gaza right now and the whole western world will celebrate it at worst and tut about it at best. Disgusting

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        Well one option is they could get off the fucking land they stole and stop doing a genocide. Not sure why that option slipped your mind. Libs always trying to find hard solutions to simple problems.

        • Nougat@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          It was Western powers that “gave” land that didn’t belong to them, and where other people already lived (and, of course, continue to support Israel). The Israeli government is not the only responsible party here.

          • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
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            It was the UN dividing the land between 1/3 jews and 2/3 muslims who were living there. It got voted 33-13 with most muslim countries voting against and 10 countries including Britain abstaining.

          • Kuori [she/her]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            considering a lot of them have second citizenships elsewhere…how about those places?

            and before you get to “but there are nazis all over europe/etc, the jews need to be safeguarded!” i’m 100% with you. killing every nazi the world over is the correct solution here, not wiping out an innocent peoples.

            • Kepabar@startrek.website
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              considering a lot of them have second citizenships elsewhere…how about those places?

              That only accounts for maybe 20-30% of the population these days. Most Israelis alive today were born in the country, not immigrants.

              So again, where do they go?

                • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
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                  I wonder, seen your username, are you by any chance living in North America? If you do, would you consider emigrating to give the land back to the Native Americans who the colonists stole it from (with a little jazzy genocide) ? Or do you consider the situation to be completely different?

                • Kepabar@startrek.website
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                  1 year ago

                  Why is this "Where do they go? 😞 " question relevant only now and only one way?

                  Because someone specifically told me that every Israeli should just leave Israel?

                  Are you not following the converstation here?

              • hotcouchguy [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                Look at South Africa. One state for everyone, equal rights, equal votes. That thought will be so repellent to many that they would rather leave, and good riddance to them.

                Not that I as some western internet rando have some unique insight into how things can/should be resolved, just the opposite: some of this is so obvious that even a distant and privileged dummy like me can see it

              • space_comrade [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                So again, where do they go?

                I don’t give a shit tbh. The state of Israel is a rogue state that shouldn’t be recognized by anybody and should never have existed. The settlers can either become refugees or rely on the mercy of Palestinians.

      • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        Hamas is extremist to the point where they would be doing a genocide as well if they were in the position to do so.

        The exact same nonsense was said about the end of apartheid in South Africa. That the extremist communist party and ANC would genocide white people. It never happened. This is literally a talking point from ex apartheid South African president PW Botha he said the same nonsense:

        “I am not prepared to lead white South Africans and other minority groups on a road to abdication and suicide,”

          • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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            I don’t think most people in South Africa desire that or even want that. White people are a tiny minority in South Africa, 7% of the population, if the majority of the country wanted white people gone, it would’ve happened already. People just wanted apartheid to end and historic inequalities to be dealt with. The first already happened, the second is happening at a snails pace, if it’s even happening at all in some cases.

            • Dolores [love/loves]@hexbear.net
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              white folks who have had their brains rewired to justify the genocidal histories of their peoples always think genocide is the default, against all fucking evidence

            • StalinForTime [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              This is also because the apartheid government caved under not only international but more important domestic pressure as they were perfectly aware that there would be civil war and mass bloodshed if they had not given in to reforms and the end of apartheid. It’s not clear what would have happened otherwise if, for instance, they had doubled down or intensified the apartheid system with even more extensive fascistic slave-labour in the 80s. As South Africa had an economic model that was descended from the settler-colonial plantation system, as seen, and utilized extensive unpaid (effectively slave) labor, it’s not unimaginable that if they’re pushed the system deeper then there would have been far more retaliatory bloodshed.

        • StalinForTime [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          Hi comrade. Not coming at you personally or aggressively but I feel I do have to come back pretty hard on this take.

          The same words can be used in different contexts with different implications, and in the one case they can be correct, in another they can be wrong. The difference which makes your analogy not hold is that the ANC is not Hamas, and pretending otherwise is either confused or disingenuous. They are extremely different organizations. The ANC was a broad-tent organization that included conservatives, nationalists, reactionaries, and revolutionary socialists, notably communists (especially in the armed wing). The armed wing did carry out military operations obvs, but they did not have as a common or explicit policy the indiscriminate torture of unarmed children or torture. They never carried out actions like Hamas has done. Not least because they were sufficiently progressive to recognize that this would politically idiotic, given that the anti-apartheid cause was perceived as depending on foreign pressure on apartheid SA. It seems clear to me that the same applies to the Palestinian case, thought the problem if ofc that the situation is so fucked that the main organization capable and willing of waging armed resistance would not only be terrible for a Palestinian left’s growth in the long-run but could also lead to a regional destabilization which would be harmful for the left in the region more broadly and would likely only benefit Islamists. The actual idea situation would be another leftist-led Intifada, but this has been prevented by Israel, but is also not in the interest of either Hamas or the PA, as it would undermine their authority and power they possess thanks to Israel in Gaza and the West Bank respectively.

          By contrast, Hamas are very different. The is evidence for Hamas being the way they are has been there since their inception. They are Islamists. They are extremely fascistic in their politics. They explicitly equate Jews and Israel frequently in their media and they are otherwise clear in their genocidal anti-semitism. Murdering children in their homes is not national-liberation. I’d also add that Hamas are not identical to Palestinians and their actions are not immediately identical with, though they are unfortunately the main military vehicle currently available for, the struggle for Palestinian liberation. Not only that, but Hamas have consistently proven throughout their existence that they do not desire full Palestinian liberation, otherwise they would not have run affairs in Gaza (to the extent they are able in an Israeli open-air concentration-camp) the way they have. This is in no way surprising, given that the interests of Islamists are no less inimical to those of actual working class and liberation movements than fascists and ultra-nationalists, though the latter might also find themselves in the inferior position in asymmetrical warfare with an imperialist power and at the military head of the movement against said imperialism.

          Quite frankly, it is an insult to the South African liberation movement to equate them with Hamas, as opposed to the genuinely progressive aspects of the Palestinian liberation movement.

          I do think it is important to note these profoundly reactionary aspects of Hamas, otherwise we end up with a blinkered, confused view of what is happening, which is not simply reducible to Hamas being or leading a progressive revolution in Gaza. That in no way changes the fact that the mass of Palestinians who are taking part in these operations are attempting to combat Israeli apartheid and genocide and defend themselves. They evidently feel they have no other choice. But neither does the latter point make Hamas a progressive organization who should be explicitly supported as the solution to Palestinians’ oppression.

          The right and need of Palestinians to depend themselves does not, however, in any way imply that every organization that happens to be the means they can do it through now is ideal, good, progressive, or that that will benefit them in the long run. Palestinian Marxists and other groups have found themselves in a situation where they feel they have no option or choice other than to form a front with Hamas in this. The deeper reasons and processes that led to that decision are not entirely clear from outside. We can unequivocally support Palestinian liberation and their self-defense while recognizing that Hamas is otherwise reactionary and therefore will not be the ideal vehicle Also, frankly, I’m never going to support an organization that tortures gay people and throws their Marxist opponents off of rooftops. Unfortunately I’m a pessimist on the front of how the political situation will develop in the long-term as I think the situation’s possible developments are going to be catastrophic in any case, given the genocidal nature of the Israeli apartheid state, how profoundly reactionary Hamas are, and that the material conditions do not allow for the strength of a Communist movement. That would require more ideal conditions which are not to be found in Gaza, and I also don’t think will be brought closer by this current round of war. Israel does of course have ultimate responsibility for this as the genocidal apartheid occupying power, but reaction can bread reaction.

          Not all national liberation movements are equal. Not all methods are politically or morally equal. People on this site seem to be able to make this realization in several other cases, such as with ostensibly ‘communist’ groups like the Khmer Rouge and Sendero Luminoso, yet unable to consistently make the same obvious realization in the case of groups in the middle east who’s interests are opposed to those of Western imperialism. There’s a deep and hysterical need among a lot of the western left, not only including but above all among those who are not Marxists but ultras of various types, to unequivocally identify Hamas with the Palestinian people and the cause of Palestinian Liberation with anything that Hamas does, which is a really bizarre and honestly perverse (especially in its reduction of Palestinians to Hamas) form of metaphysical argument by semantic shift of the meaning of the words being used, to make something appear to imply something which it actually does not.

          The slightest glance at the history of the relationship of the USSR to national liberation movements makes clear that serious and intelligent socialists of the past who have actually held political power and had geopolitical relevance were perfectly aware that not all national liberation groups are politically equal. Their support was never unconditional, because they were not ultra edgelords on the internet. They were a serious geopolitical power with a specific socialist ideology, and their support was therefore conditional on there being a minimum of progressive aspects to the movements they supported. Of course, this did lead to cases of of questionable or debatable support (such as the Guomingdang or the Derg), and the case is even worse when we consider the CPC’s foreign policy. But that these were mistakes (if they were) is made clear by how they contradicted with the socialist principles which were explicitly underlying them in the minds of socialists politicians who determined foreign policy.

          • PosadistInevitablity [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            ANC would have looked a lot more like Hamas if the apartheid included putting every black person in a concentration camp for 70 years and randomly bombing them.

            Who are you to judge humans that have been subjected to such a nightmare? To claim their fight is somehow tainted? This will end the moment Israel decides to take their boot off the neck of 2 million human beings.

            • StalinForTime [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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              Tbh, I’m not really sure what point you are making here (not trying to rude, so please feel free to clarify what the argument it).

              Nowhere have I claimed that the Palestinian cause is tainted. Because I do not equate or identify the Palestinian movement with Hamas, and to do so is an external perspective.

              You are correct that Israel bears ultimate responsibility for this. Yes the most important thing is that they stop the occupation. That’s not what this is about. Nor is it a judgment on the Palestinians or other Palestinian groups for feeling that they should, or have no choice but to, join a common front with Hamas. This is about perspective so that people don’t suddenly make the, frankly, stupid move of suddenly speaking of Hamas as if they are simply a progressive force. This is about recognizing that Hamas, precisely in virtue of who and what they are, will not be the ultimate force of Palestinian Liberation, and that in fact their interests are antithetical to it. The other groups also despise Hamas, and it’s important to ask why (not that they are necessarily great themselves). Because make no mistake, it is far from a given that these groups, let alone Palestinians in the West Bank or who are Arab Israeli citizens, are necessarily happy with this. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem also to be making the slip between ‘Hamas’ and ‘Palestinians’, when they are very far from the same thing. Do you think that every single Palestinian in Gaza is happy when they hear that Hamas has launched a new attack? It’s not that simple, even when, as we’ve seen, right now we see there is a display of general support among key groups, though again groups like the PA are also corrupt and do not speak for all Palestinians. But this is also as much a matter of maintaining legitimacy, because Hamas is dominant in Gaza and because now that Israel is launching a brutal attack and that it looks like they could be launching larger scale genocidal actions, especially once their military is more fully mobilized and they launch a ground operation into Gaza, there is naturally going to be a rallying against Israel, and that is justified, morally and politically.

              Hamas were aware that that would happen. Hamas are perfectly aware that when they launch these kinds of attacks (made possible and caused ofc by Israel in the grand scheme of things), and Israel then attacks Gaza, this galvanizes support for them. Hamas are a product of Israel in more way than one. Also, and again, and I can’t stress this enough, as Islamists their political interests are not in the construction of a broad, radical, working-class movement which would launch another Intifada and force international powers to force Israel to a negotiating table to allow for a Palestinian state, as even if such a state were to be ruled by a national bourgeoisie, that would be preferable for the construction of Palestinian socialism to what they have now. Personally, i too would like a single, secular, state, but I also feel this is pie-in-the-sky idealism. Israel will never accept that, and neither will their imperialist backers. Nor will they accept a two state solution, as we know from their decades of sabotage of such an option. This is where my pessimism comes in, as the heydays of the secular Palestinian left of the 60s and 70s is gone, Israel is becoming more fascist by the day, and the main vehicle for armed opposition to Israel is Hamas. So I don’t see how this doesn’t even catastrophically. I don’t really see an opening for the left, except perhaps if a Palestinian left finds an opportunity to take prestige from Hamas, though the strength of religiosity makes this difficult, as does Hamas’ Islamism.

              I feel like this is a point to try again to dispel some illusions some people are clearly in when they compare Hamas to groups like the ANC, the Vietcong. If anything they are like the FLN in Algeria. Now the FLN were completely fucked, vicious, ruthless and deeply reactionary, but they at least were attempting to construct a national bourgeois state with nationalist perspective and policies. I don’t think Hamas are even trying to do that honestly in that their s’ils seen broader. And even if they were, they are not the ANC or the Vietcong, who were genuinely progressive movements of national liberation.

              And again, it’s amazing to me that self-described communists are able to make the obvious realization that if ostensibly ‘communist’ groups like Sendero Luminoso or the Khmer Rouge, even when fighting anti-imperialist struggles (complicated in the case of the Khmer Rouge as they were supported clandestinely by the US for geopolitical Cold War reasons) or at least struggling to overthrow their national bourgeoisie, engage in widespread indiscriminate atrocities against civilians, then their communism or status as a progressive force is compromised. Or to give another example: just because I support (or would have supported) unequivocally the Soviet struggle against Nazi Germany, would never in a trillion years say that the mass-sexual violence which occurred during the Soviet invasion of Nazi Germany was justified. That would be beyond depraved honestly, even though I understand that the men who did it had seen their country and families obliterated in the most depraved ways themselves. But revenge is not the basis of politics. That doesn’t mean it’s not always justified or permissible (like concentration camp survivors killing their guards), but I really don’t see how this is equivalent to killing children or unarmed workers intentionally.

              Of course this situation is the result of where Palestinians have been pushed by Israel over the last 80 years. And yes. Intellectually I understand that. But that just a description. It’s not immediately a justification of anything. Nor does it establish by itself what the progressive form of political organization. For that the material conditions and the nature of the possible groups - such as Hamas - then has to be considered. I’m sure that if I saw my child die in front of my eyes due to an Israeli bomb, which I’m blessed enough to not have experienced, then I would want to do some pretty terrible shit to these people. Israeli guards and soldiers, when torturing Palestinians, have been known to joke that they’re like the Gestapo. It’s no surprise that this breeds desire for extremely violent retaliation. But jumping from that to what I’ve seen some people saying, namely ‘anything goes, the babies/kids have it coming’ or that that is politically or morally justified is a completely illogical leap no matter which way you spin it. And frankly that should be obvious. That is not a guide to thinking about what kind of political organization in Palestine is going to lead to Palestinian Liberation. In any case, I’m pretty sure that it’s not Hamas.

              By-the-bye, the South African government did engage in militaristic repressions of its population, massacres, forced displacements, ethnic cleansing, torture, rape, terror, slavery. There was armed resistance, but the form this took was very different to Hamas. It was based on progressive movements, whereas Hamas is not.

              Also, this is not a question about violence as such. Violence is necessary for the revolution. I wish it wasn’t but it is. When a Palestinian kills an Israeli soldier attacking their home, my heart cheers for them. But that’s not the same thing as an Islamist militant taking someone’s children hostage and raping and murdering the women. Hamas would cut our heads off in a heartbeat. And this is not an idle point that’s somehow irrelevant in some grand geopolitical third-worldist strategy. They are Islamists. They do not care about our revolution and their success, even Thinking the political math is that simple is naive. If it weren’t, then groups like the Khmer Rouge would have been justified. This is not an idle or moralistic point because not all forms of organization or methods are politically equal. Not least because the moral qualities they have does affect how politically effective they are going to be. The indiscriminate killing of unarmed women and children is not going to serve the cause of Palestinian Liberation. Now on the one hand I admit there’s a sense of comeuppance to the blowback Israel is seeing, such as at the attacked rave. The rave, with plenty of well-off Israelis who live off the fruits of apartheid, rolling on ecstasy next to an open-air prison camp - from which, apparently, the rave’s music could actually be heard - is obviously completely depraved. But this is cruel emotion of mine. Not a guide to politics or ethics.

      • Kuori [she/her]@hexbear.net
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        Hamas is extremist to the point where they would be doing a genocide as well if they were in the position to do so.

        “the people being genocided would do the exact same thing if they come into power!” is just soft genocide denial. it’s colonizers telling on themselves, because that’s their solution to an unwanted indigenous populace.

        People say separate the Hamas from the people, but that’s really hard when the members of Hamas are of the people and have the support of a good percentage of them.

        israel was instrumental in destroying all non-hamas groups. their extremism is intentional, as it gives israel an excuse to continue doing genocide.

        … But as the issue stands today, I can’t blame Israel in taking extreme action to end the conflict that’s dragged on for nearly a century now.

        you…can’t blame the genocidal settler state for continuing to do a genocide in response to…people resisting the genocide they have been doing for 70 years?? are you fucking drunk?

        • Kepabar@startrek.website
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          That’s what makes the whole thing complicated, isn’t it?

          Israel shouldn’t have existed to begin with and when it did, it shouldn’t have acted the way it has since its inception.

          Yes, Israel is to blame for Hamas having power in Gaza today as well.

          I’m not arguing that Israel isn’t a bad guy here.

          What I’m arguing is I don’t see an alternative that doesn’t just kick the can down the road.

            • Kepabar@startrek.website
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              The vast majority of Israeli’s were born there at this point.

              It’s not a stolen home to them. It’s the only home they’ve ever known.

              • valaramech@kbin.social
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                Israeli settlers have, for years now, been slowly encroaching into territory officially recognized as Palestinian lands. These people absolutely have the choice to move back out of those areas and into lands officially recognized as belonging to Israelis. On the other hand, very few people can “just move, lol” and I wouldn’t be surprised if Israel specifically chose settlers that would be burdened economically if they attempted to leave.

                To be clear, Israel has continuously acted in bad faith against Palestinians and, along with its allies, destroyed the peaceful (or, at least, less militant) groups that sought to unite the Palestinians. This is absolutely a problem of their own making and I would be surprised if there was a peaceful path forward with the current political climate in the region.

              • NoIWontPickaName@kbin.social
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                If I steal 2 million dollars from you and hang on to it until I have children and give it to them, is that their money or is it still stolen?

                • loobkoob@kbin.social
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                  This is where it gets tricky and a lot of nuance is lost, I think. There reaches a certain point where it stops being zero-sum because two or more parties can each have an entirely independent and valid claim.

                  In your example, if you pass the money to your children, they reach 40 years old, spending the money they believe is theirs, and then suddenly they’re told they owe $2M they don’t have for something they didn’t do, that’s not fair on them. Have they benefitted from the $2M? Absolutely. Is it fair that they benefitted while the person/people you stole it from suffered? Absolutely not. But your children didn’t do anything to deserve punishment.

                  Now I’m generally fairly anti-Israel, and have been for years, so don’t take this as me being an apologist for colonisers. But for someone who has lived all their life in Israel - whose great-grandparents were colonisers - Israel is home and they feel they have just as much right to it as the people it was stolen from 80 years ago. The longer these conflicts go on, the more difficult it is to come up with a fair solution on a human level.

                  Israel is definitely in the wrong, though. It’s very clearly not fair from a Palestinian perspective. But no matter how you try to divide up the land now, there will be innocent people who suffer for it. There’s no easy solution to it, unfortunately. It’s more complex than just “give it back”.

      • FALGSConaut [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        Really? Your stance is “decolonization sounds complicated, let’s just let Israel genocide millions of people”? As other posters have said, send any dual citizens back to their country of origin, remove settlers from Palestinian land, end the siege of gaza, take down the wall and machine guns, prosecute IDF war criminals, and dissolve the criminal entity that is Israel. Will it be bloodless and free of violence? Of course not, I’m not naive, but the genocide of Palestinians will be much more bloody than any decolonization process

      • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        Yes, they are doing a genocide.

        I’m not sure what other options are available at this point though.

        I’d love to hear your explanation for how you totally aren’t a fascist

      • Washburn [she/her]@hexbear.net
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        Decolonization is a bloody and violent process. Once you colonize a place and the people that live there, the only ways that it will end is the near-complete extermination of the colonized peoples by the colonizers, or decolonization. There can never be a lasting, peaceful status quo, as the interests of the colonized and the colonizers are inexorably opposed. The colonizer wants more of what is and was the colonized’s. The colonized want to keep their homes, and to not be subject to the colonizers. Both will use violence to achieve their ends.

        The question of “how can peace be achieved in Palestine” is not “how can the current conflict be resolved,” but instead “should Palestinians be subject to ethnic cleansing, including violently and directly as occurred during the Nakba, or should Palestinians govern Palestine?”

      • Dolores [love/loves]@hexbear.net
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        can’t blame Israel

        i most certainly can. the instigator of violence always has the option to not continue and to make reparations. israelis are only targets for violence so long as they make life intolerable for palestinians.

      • And there is no where that would accept the Gaza population as refugees even if you could get them to leave.

        So what’s left?

        Did you just end your lengthy support of Israeli genocide with “No one wants them anyway, so what else is there but to kill them?” Because it sure sounded like that.

  • supersane@lemmy.ml
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    Obviously illegal. Collective punishment is a war crime and makes Israel a monster. Imagine if there was a murderer in your building and the feds blew the entire building up.

    • Razp@lemm.ee
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      As is punishing all Russian passport holders for the action of the government. So it’s either both EU and Israel are monsters or neither is.

        • Razp@lemm.ee
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          “Collective punishment is a war crime”. Except for Palestinians and Russians, of course. And anybody we disagree with. Fuck those civilians.

          We are hypocrites. We have double standards.

          I am just pointing it out.

            • Razp@lemm.ee
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              You missed the point :

              Russia invades and terrorises the Ukrainian civilians. We punish Russian civilians aka collective punishment.

              Hamas invades Israel and terrorises Israeli civilians. Israel punishes Gaza civilians aka collective punishment.

              In the first case we are OK. In the second case we scream at Israel (the OP post) “Collective punishment is war crime!!”

              We. Are. Hypocrites.

                • zobasha@lemmy.world
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                  Something tells me you still are not getting the point about collective punishment. But hey, you won’t be the first person who can’t see the hypocrisy in all of us.

      • FrostyTheDoo@lemmy.world
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        Launching missiles across borders is different than securing your own borders. You can’t possibly really be trying to equate the two?

        • Razp@lemm.ee
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          “Collective punishment is a war crime”. Except for Palestinians and Russians, of course. And anybody we disagree with. Fuck those civilians.

          We are hypocrites. We have double standards.

          I am just pointing it out.

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            Hmmm let’s stay on topic. I didn’t say I support collective punishment of Palestine or anyone. I said missiles aren’t the same thing as border restrictions, because they clearly aren’t. Do you actually disagree?

      • pascal@lemm.ee
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        As a punished Russian living in Lomonosov, let me explain you what has changed for us since this “punishment” started:

        Absolutely nothing.

        (Oh, yes, Coke bottles are now green, instead of red.)

      • GreenM@lemmy.world
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        This is not valid in all cases as I know multiple Russians and those living in EU continue to do so with no issue and those living in RU say it doesn’t affect them. You can even find interview with random RU citizens in RU and they all say it doesn’t affect them or that they want to attack UA BC Nato boarder is too close.

        • Razp@lemm.ee
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          You missed the point :

          Russia invades and terrorises the Ukrainian civilians. We punish Russian civilians aka collective punishment.

          Hamas invades Israel and terrorises Israeli civilians. Israel punishes Gaza civilians aka collective punishment.

          In the first case we are OK. In the second case we scream at Israel (the OP post) “Collective punishment is war crime!!”

          We. Are. Hypocrites.

            • Razp@lemm.ee
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              Ursula von der Leyen was against Russians destroying the energy infrastructure of Ukraine.

              The same Ursula supports energy blockade of Gaza by Israel.

              If you don’t see a hypocrisy from our leaders of the west, you brainwashed.

          • GreenM@lemmy.world
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            I don’t think I missed the point though.

            I’m ststating that Russians don’t seem to be directly afected aside from having their favorite EU vacation destinations accessible via France or Turkey instead directly from Moscow. It means that so called collective punishment was either ineffective or so mild, that it had almost no effect on dayly lives of citizens.

            You compare this with bombing city, being cut out of water, food, medicine and energy.

            If anything, Russians collectively punished Ukrainians by shelling,detroying their energy and tradic infrastructure to make winter as bad as possible for UA.

    • Locrin@lemmy.world
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      Oh I love allegories. Let me try.

      Imagine there was a murderer in your building. But he is not really interested in murdering you, he keeps shooting at some other people you also hate. The feds have tried to go into the building to extract the murderer, but his friends and you lynched the feds when they tried. The murderer has stockpiled his guns in the building and the feds figure that if they can’t get to the murderer at least they can destroy his guns and vantage point from which he is firing at people. They don’t really want to destroy the building but the murderer is actively trying to kill people and the people he is trying to kill demands action.

      You receive a text message that the building you are in will be destroyed shortly. You want to leave, but now the murderer says he will kill you if you do.

      It is a very silly thing to think that having a “civilian” stay in a legitimate military target ( rocket launcher and or rocket storage ) makes it a place that is untouchable!

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    Israel’s actions are a direct consequence of what Hamas did," Borrell’s spokesman had said in Brussels earlier the same day.

    Uhh, I think you meant to say “Hamas’ actions are a direct consequence of what Israel has been doing to Gaza”

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      You really wouldn’t gather this by looking at the media churn. It’s pro Israel to with it’s foot to the floor. If you dare voice distention, you are labeled to be an anti Semite. This successful tactic has been a go to for years. For Israel to know true peace, they need to dump its current leadership. I won’t see this happen in my lifetime.

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        I don’t know what media you read, but this has not been my experience with The Intercept, Aljazera, and Democracy Now

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      It both is the case. But it should be really obvious to anyone that even a horrific terrorist attack doesn’t just absolve Israel from international law.

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        Hamas is Gaza’s government and military. Yes, they’ve committed war crimes and many call them terrorists.

        The IOF is Israel’s military. Yes, they’ve committed war crimes and many call them terrorists.

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        I’m all for open discussions. But… shouldn’t one know the basic facts on a topic before seemingly expressing an opinion on the matter? You clearly need to take an unbiased look at the situation.

        You do not kill hundreds of innocent people and blame it on oppression.

        The oblivious irony of such a statement.

          • okamiueru@lemmy.world
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            Why do you expect an argument? I’m pointing out what seems to me as a flaw in reasoning based on what seems to be a lack of understanding of the situation.

            • ViewSonik@lemmy.world
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              That’s the thing Mann I don’t misunderstand the situation… You do. The atrocities that Hamas is responsible for is only punishable via death with war comes civilian casualties until we can figure out a way to only kill military personnel. This is literally collateral damage that is inevitable… Israel is doing the right thing Hamas is a terrorist organization Land is not owned by any society. It is owned by the power of the society at the time of its being I know you don’t understand what I’m saying and that’s OK let’s just agree to disagree.

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                I doubt I’m anything like you, and I also doubt I think like you. I’ve spent my life always critical of what I think, always allowing myself to be wrong. So I don’t look at this situation with the gut feeling and emotion you seem to have. I look at humans, and human behavior. I’m skeptical of any news and media, especially if there is reason to suspect an agenda.

                This is literally collateral damage that is inevitable… Israel is doing the right thing Hamas is a terrorist organization Land is not owned by any society. It is owned by the power of the society at the time

                Each of those sentences combined, paints such a strong picture, that I’m surprised you cannot see it for what it is.

    • Alwaysfallingupyup@lemmy.world
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      You obviously dont know your history. This all started when Britain made shady deals with a bunch of countries during the first world war. And even before that Israel was on that land before there was ever a Palestine.

      • MisterScruffy@lemmy.ml
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        Palestinians have been living there for hundreds of years, it is their home. The Isreali settlers started showing up 70 years ago and forced the inhabitants out of their houses. Do you seriously think that Jewish people deserve that land because of the religion of its inhabitants in ancient roman times?

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          You do know their were always arab jews in tbe region. Just saying from Morroco to Yemen but with Israel’s creation, jews were expelled from every Arab nation. Only Iran let those who wanted to stay in an islamist country.

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            When were Jews expelled for every Arab nation? I don’t think that’s true. Like you said “there were always Arab Jews in the region” but they were a minority. The modern Israeli citizens are mostly immigrants though.

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            That surprises me. I thought sharia law demands that you let peaceful infidels stay as long as they don’t practice their infidelity in public and pay the jizyah. I mean, it obviously sucks and is tailored in a manner that infidels are leaving, but there is no forced relocation as in zionism.

            • SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world
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              If you go by the Quran Jews aren’t even called infidels. They are considered People of the Book. But you are thinking that Arabs follow the Quran devoutly. They cherry pick like all the conservative Christian’s in the west. It doesn’t matter which religion they have they will be hateful against “others” regardless.

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            Being bigger and more powerful doesn’t mean you aren’t a bully. Israel being more powerful and more palatable doesn’t mean they aren’t terrorists. The US is a bad example if you’re trying to say Israel was in the right, because the US certainly wasn’t.

      • AmberPrince@lemmy.world
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        I think he was referring to the IDFs penchant for shooting Palestinian kids in the back for funsies for the last few years.

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        It’s so easy to blame the British empire for any geopolitical mistake isn’t it?

  • Resol van Lemmy@lemmy.world
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    The EU may support Israel, but right now they’re calling them out for this bullshit and I’m applauding them for that. Hurting innocent civilians is never a good idea no matter which side of the conflict does it.

    • AdamHenry@discuss.tchncs.de
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      It angers me how many people are now permanently displaced. From what I’ve seen, the numbers are going to be extremely high. How do you rehouse an entire city? Families are going to suffer many hardships because of this. I can’t think of a better way to recruit a new generation for an age old cause.

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      The Palestinian government attacked their neighbor and took hostages. Their neighbor then stopped supplying Palestine with resources.

      It seems Israel is aiming for the best case scenario here, which is for the people of Palestine to overthrow the death cult that controls their state.

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        Nice work ignoring the decades of conflict. It’s not like Israel has been stealing all the land they agreed to “allow” Palestinians have for the last 50+ years or anything, right?

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          So you’re saying they’ve been giving food, water, and energy to people they have been enemies with for “decades”?

          That’s awful nice of them, but it doesn’t change the fact that declaring war is going to get those things taken away.

          • dmonzel@lemm.ee
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            … you really want to use that argument? “Giving them food, water and energy”? Like they’re prisoners?

            • CensorsHateMe@lemmings.world
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              I guess Africa is the largest “open air prison”, then, since America has been giving them food, water, and energy?

              Did you even think before writing this zinger?

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                I mean, if you want to go down that rabbit hole, you certainly can dig into centuries of imperialism and oppression in Africa by outside colonial powers.

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                  Yes, we are all aware of the laundry list of men, women, and children “colonizers” you want murdered and raped.

      • 31337@sh.itjust.works
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        That’s called collective punishment, and is a war crime.

        They’re not really neighbors. Gaza is more like a prison controlled by Israel. Israel has controlled Gaza’s electricity, food, water, and the movement of its citizens for many years. I believe even before this attack, Israel only allowed Gaza 4 hours of electricity per day.

        Also, in 2019, the PM of Israel reportedly laid out a strategy to “bolster” Hamas and provide them funding to oppose the Palestinian Authority. Hamas, in its current form, would not have been possible without Israel creating the perfect conditions for terrorist organizations to thrive. Israel keeps the conditions so bad, the average age in Gaza is 18. So, half of those Palestinian death toll numbers we are seeing are likely children.

        • CensorsHateMe@lemmings.world
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          Refusing to supply the country that invaded you is a war crime??? Since when? Does Ukraine have to keep sending food to Russia?

          And what prison in this world can you fire off 5,000 rockets from?

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              Read up on your history. Palestine would be called Jordan if Israel didn’t get involved.

              And it is true we would have peace in the region, because it was never about “israel” and “palestine”. It is about a death cult wanting to kill jews.

              • teuast@lemmy.ca
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                The modern state of Israel exists because a bunch of Christian doomsdayers thought that it existing would make Jesus come back and end the world, and post-WWII seemed like the perfect time to redraw some borders with no consideration for the people already living there. That’s the death cult you’re talking about.

                And I know Judaism views Israel as its ancestral homeland. It’s not like the Jews have no claim to it whatsoever. Additionally, I understand that post-WWII genuinely was a great time to give the Jewish people some reparations. But you’re acting like they’ve been there the whole time and no one else also has a claim to it, and you’re further acting like after the European Christian death cult moved them in there (again, to try and make Jesus come back and end the world), they didn’t then spend the next 70 years viciously subjugating the Palestinians who’d actually been living there for ages.

                MLK Jr. said that a riot is the last voice of the unheard. That’s not true about every riot, but if you have been aware of the geopolitics of this region of the world for more than like a month? and are not being a disingenuous shitbag, then this is the exact type of riot he was talking about. I know you have a lot of trouble with the not being a disingenuous shitbag part, but fortunately it seems like most people here also recognize that.

          • corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca
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            1 year ago

            Refusing to supply the country that invaded you

            The way I read it, they were already refusing basic human needs. Cart, horse.

      • Rawdogg@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        There’s pictures of the Israelis landing in palestine by boat 75 years ago begging for asylum, they never stuck to the border agreements over the years and continuously steal land and kill palestinians, Israelis are scum of the earth lowlife colonisers. End of story.

        • CensorsHateMe@lemmings.world
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          1 year ago

          Yes, thank you for sharing that you get all of your news from reddit headlines and picture subs.

          Palestine wouldn’t have existed without Isreal. It would have been annexed by a neighboring country without the jews they want to kill so badly.

    • Browning@lemmings.world
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      1 year ago

      To what end?
      This isn’t something Palestine can fight their way out of, however many weapons they have.

      • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        EU send incredible amount of weapons to Ukraine, citing repelling invasion. So even if we generously forget how most of their members were participating in invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, surely they can send at least some weapons to Palestine?

        • wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one
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          1 year ago
          1. This is a far messier situation than ukraine being invaded, and 2) this literally just started. And multiple nations have spoken up about defending palestinians already.
          • bloubz
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            1 year ago

            I think it was mostly provocative. You know

          • OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            never had the aim of annexing the country and destroy their culture language and identity. Never stole children. Etc.

            That is a really stupid goalpost to stand by. The semantics you’ve drawn really do spell out “I only care about the invasion of Ukraine. Iraq and Gaza aren’t that bad.”

      • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Probably as much as possible, especially that Netanyahu is known for unhinged hate and slander for Palestinians and Biden now just repeats it after him.

    • OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml
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      Because the very same article shows the EU most certainly doesn’t like Hamas.

      His condemnation of Israel’s behaviour came after three days of EU rhetoric that had focused on the “utterly inhuman … shocking … barbarous” nature of Hamas’ atrocities, while highlighting Israel’s rights rather than its obligations.

      He pledged his staff would conduct a swift review of EU aid to Palestine to make sure no money ended up with Hamas via error or deception.

      Stopping aid to ordinary Palestinians would be “the best present we could give to Hamas and it would jeopardise our interests and partnerships in the Arab world,” he added.

      “We want to make sure that, beyond UNRWA, the EU budget does not get to any organisations which has any ties, any links to Hamas,” he said.

      EU sending weapons is not a matter of who is defending or attacking, only a matter of who they like

      • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Of course, i was (rhetorically) asking our resident EU shills which claims EU is follwing some kind of beningn international policy.

  • erranto@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    So was the blockade. and they did nothing about it . bunch of spineless hypocrites

    • 1chemistdown@kbin.social
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      1 year ago
      1. What is the EU going to do without the US’s approval? UN is out due to permanent security member’s veto power. Going against the USA means loss of a lot of things. Some of them crucial. They literally cannot do a single thing without losing a major thing that directly impacts their citizens.
  • bufalo1973@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    Wait! I know what Borrell will do: expel Israel from Eurovision! That will serve them right and start behaving!

    I don’t expect much more from anything leaded by Borrell. We know him well in Spain.

  • WuTang @lemmy.ninja
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    1 year ago

    By just having the power to cut water, electricity and food to other ethnic should ring you a fucking bell deep to your throat about the problem!!!