- cross-posted to:
- worldnews
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
Edited title to match articles title.
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I’ve been tracking the comments on all of this across various websites to see what people’s thoughts are. This genuinely might be the most contentious issue of our age. There are people who are vehemently pro Palestine and can dismiss the loss of civilian lives as’ what do you expect when people are pushed like this’ . Then others are hugely pro Israel and see this as an unprovoked attack by a terrorist group and any retaliation is justified.
I think everyone’s shitty here. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They use terrorist practices and target civilians. That’s a terrorist organization. There’s no discussion on that point. Israel is a right wing authoritarian state that regularly commits war crimes. The total Palestinian body count far exceeds the death toll from this attack by orders of magnitude so we can’t pretend like Israel was minding its own business and was attacked.
I don’t think you can point to one or the other as being the true hero or the true victim. It’s the greatest grey area of all time.
I absolutely condemn the Palestinians and Hamas for this act. I absolutely condemn the Israelis for their continued mistreatment and violence towards Palestinians. One will say they only act this way because of the behavior of the other. But at this point where does the original blame for all of it start and end.
The only thing that is certain is that there will be far more blood shed and every dead Israeli will be met with 10 dead Palestinians. I suspect this will be the turning point for this ongoing conflict. And in the future there may no longer be a Palestine as we know it. With the US protecting Israel no other Arab countries will dare intervene militarily. If the Israelis occupy Gaza it’s going to quickly become a quagmire with a never ending insurgency. It will be costly and in ten years Israel will be more unsafe then they were today.
There’s no good answers or good parties here. Just disgusting human nature and the consequences of half baked racist geopolitics from the 40s.
But at this point where does the original blame for all of it start
The Brits
“In the beginning, some old British guy drew some lines on a map. This had made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.” - The first line to the history of many regional conflicts across the globe
Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration basically created the political climate of the Middle East.
Basically, the British and French decided that the Arabs were too stupid to figure out borders and squiggly lines that followed lame things like “shared cultural heritage” and “similar religious beliefs” were far too complicated.
I did some digging today because I was curious on what led to the Balfour Declaration, and what led to that, and so forth. The only thing I have to add here is there were geopolitics involving a separatist Ottoman sultan, and it seems the British wanted to create a sphere of influence for themselves in the area through a Jewish population (Catholic Church gave France influence, Orthodox Church gave Russia influence). Zionists were happy to work with them.
That begs the question then, how did the Zionist goal of a Jewish homeland start? The furthest I could trace it back to was Russian pogroms of Jewish migrants. The pogroms led a Jewish intellectual to contend that the only way for Jews to live freely and respected was an independent Jewish state. There was a zeitgeist of a enlightenment for Judaism at the time as well which asked questions about culture and religion and identity.
I have yet to go back further from there. It seems like oppression and discrimination against Jews during the middle ages could be a significant factor… and that would probably draw us back to the Romans in Jerusalem.
At this point, shit’s just fucked. The idea of a Jewish state, the creation of one, and what led to the originating idea span centuries and several nations. And having a Jewish state is central to this whole issue. I don’t think history has an answer for us here.
Which was influenced largely by the antisemitism of the West and the rise of Zionism for Jewish people which is partly radicalization as a response to thousands of years of oppression. But Brits were still in power with colonialism in full force.
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Only one group has thousands of people astroturfing on their behalf which would skew organic support
That’s a foolish assumption. Plenty of countries have strong reasons to weaken Israel, and plenty of other countries have strong reasons to support them.
Russia and China are spreading as much propaganda about this as the the US and its allies, guaranteed.
Do you have LITERALY any proof for this or is this baseless assumption. I can tell you the PRC through there statements and actions are being PAINFULLY middle of the road in there efforts to remain nutral in the middle east, and I am sorry but russia is no supper power, and it also, as you may or may not know has bigger things to worry about than trying to propogandize over a war over opressed people who have been subjected to a genocide striking out.
Need I remind you the language that Isn’treal is using in relation to the Palistinians, or what they have done for the past decades. No only one side is mobilizing an astroturffed army, and it sure as hell is not the palistinan side.
FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALISTINE SHALL BE FREE
A lemmygrad user condemning Israel for genocide is the purest form of hypocrisy I’ve ever seen. Make up your fucking mind.
Do you mind clarifying at all, I mean I can make up my mind. Capitalism=bad Genocide=bad Opression in any form=bad, shall I contenue. I really live my life by a simple idea, anyone who trembles with indignation at every injustice is a comrade of mine. What Isntreal does is an injustice, and so I am opposed to it.
I might not be perfectly logically consistent, however atleast in this, and in thinking genocide is bad, I have been.
Capitalism=bad Genocide=bad Opression in any form=bad
Unless Russia or China do it. You left that part out.
Modern day Russia is no commrade of mine, they are typical post soviet capitalist shills, so yes in that respect Russia is bad. Russia is also bad in there repression of the LGBT community, and you will not hear me or a comrade of mine disagree with this. However I am unaware of any genocide they are carrying out, if you could please point me to one I would be happy to share in my shaming of the Russian Federation and their genocide. I do want to point out the ongoing genocide Ukraine has carried out on the ethnically russians in the east, Ukrainian opression of minorities of any stripe and the LGBT community, as with political parties left of Facism.
As with China, I do not like the Republic of China and am willing to state so publicly at any opertunity presented to me. As for the Peoples Republic of China, While I will not say they are perfect, and if I felt you where willing to engage in a good faith discussion and not just quippy quote grabs, I would be more than happy to talk to you about my thoughts on the PRC. That being said they are Communist so I am not going to yell at them for that, do not engage in opression, (before you reply to this please follow your evidence chain and make sure it does not end at Radio Free Asia or any other CIA puppet) and same for genocide, they do not engage in genocide, Before you bring up the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, an audit by majority islamic nations said that no genocide had happened, and all evidence that does say that ends with RFA or another CIA puppet. Before you bring up that China is a one party state, it is not it has 8 parties the CPC wins a super majority in free and fair elections done by the law of the PRC. I mean it is truly interesting to read about, and agian I would be more than happy to talk to you about it
Pretty much the only unbiased take anyone can have. Both sides f*cking suck. I disagree that this is the turning point tho. We’ve been here before and we’ll stay here until both sides come to the table and actually discuss a peaceful resolution to the conflict. It’ll never happen with hamas so they have to go. It’ll never happen with the current Israeli government so they need to be replaced with more diplomatic leaders. Neither is gonna happen tho, the continued conflict just puts more dependence on the bad actors that keep escalating it. Honestly I see hamas cracking before Israel softens but who knows if or when that’ll happen. I wouldn’t be surprised if this conflict continued far beyond my lifetime.
This is why I mainly blame the US and Europe at this point.
Both sides in this situation are controlled by the most disgusting kind of sociopath and the only way to stop this is real (with teeth, not just bullshit talk) international pressure on both sides.
Instead there is real pressure on one side only, by declaring Hamas a terrorist organisation (which they are), whilst without pressure on the other side, the boot of Israel on Palestinian necks creates every day new people with nothing to lose, for whom joining an internationally labelled terrorist organisation is an actual step-up from their situation.
So the worst kind of Israelis have nothing to lose from joining the military or colonates and stealing from and murdering Palestinians because there are zero international sanctions on it, the Israeli authorities fully support it and they have overwhelming force, whilst the worst kind of Palestinians have nothing to lose from joining Hamas and murdering Israelis because they have nothing to lose since the actions of the above mentioned Israelis have made their baseline situation be “a life of misery treated as less than human” and even made any organisation that resists Israel (even one as bad as Hamas) be relativelly prestigious and an actual step-up for many in that environment.
Unless the “solution” envisioned by US and European leaders is genocide of the Palestinians, then both sides have to be put in a situation were they do have something to lose by doing what they’ve been doing and that means keeping on the pressure on Hamas and extending the sanctions to the Israeli government.
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I suspect this will be the turning point for this ongoing conflict.
Agreed.
And in the future there may no longer be a Palestine as we know it.
Yea, I don’t think the two-state compromise is even possible even more. Israel won’t tolerate even letting Hamas stick around, so Gaza will be leveled. As for what will happen to the civilians; I’ve not a clue.
It never was possible. Israel’s goal from the jump was an ethnostate with control of all the land recognized as “Israel” from the time of the old testament. Anything else is failure to them.
It goes back even further than that when you look into why Zionists wanted a Jewish state in the first place. I did a deep dive today trying to figure out the origin of the conflict and the original victims and aggressors, and I ended up in Revolutionary Russia before calling a quits for the day.
I don’t know what an ideal solution is at this point, nor what an actually viable solution would be. I wonder if it would even be better for the issue to not end instead of continuing on the path it’s on. The way things are going, the only place we’ll end up is with one of the sides completely wiped out. :/
I suspect this will be the turning point of tbe conflict. I don’t know that we are going to walk Israel back from the full on attack.
The reality is as long as there are Palestinians alive there will be a terrorist network operating in their ranks. Israel could offer an olive branch and stop their oppression of the people but that hatred runs deep and it won’t be long before there’s another attack and we are back to where we started.
There’s no good solution at all. There’s only the question of when does a military action in response to a terrorist act swap from righteous retribution to a genocide. Because short of genocide the Israelis can do nothing but occupy the territory and deal with an insurgency which will only breed more terrorists as all the fatherless sons grow up hating Israel and want to enact their revenge.
At this point a forced migration might be the option with the least bloodshed, as repulsive as it is. Then you run into the problem though that Palestinians are still shunned by the Arab world because being them being Muslim isn’t enough to override antisemitism from their nationality.
Ironically I think we might need another mandated “this region is now the home of Palestinians” like with Israel if they’re going to have a peaceful place to live.
For the record I don’t like any of these solutions. But like you said we’re quickly approaching the point where Israel may permanently end the conflict through the genocide of the Palestinians, and that’s the absolutely least desirable outcome.
Yep, ESH
Which is why the Palestinians need to recognise the writing on the wall decades ago and pushed to settle somewhere else where it isn’t a lost cause. They can’t just keep turning their people into combatants and not expect to be suppressed for it.
Israel isn’t going anywhere, it will take more than the Middle East to force them and even then, they already have nukes.
You realize most of them aren’t even legally allowed to leave, right?
They can’t just keep turning their people into combatants and not expect to be suppressed for it.
Steps can’t be skipped when they threaten the security of Israel.
Egypt allows in only a few hundred Gaza travelers a day, so Hamas maintains a months-long waiting list. Those who pay for “coordination” — a bribe believed to be pocketed by authorities on both sides of the border — get bumped higher up the list.
Lots of innocent young people are just trying to get away, but can’t and are going to get destroyed because of these two extreme sides.
Egypt is wary of Palestinians, I wonder why. /s
Historically humanity has not treated “outsiders” to their in-groups very well.
Maybe it’s some form of human instinct from countless generations of violence against ourselves, it’s hard to say.
Either way we shouldn’t let basic fears get in the way of helping each other.
The overwhelming vast majority of PEOPLE in the Gaza Strip are innocent civilians just like you and me, and want nothing to do with this nonsense.
Families began stockpiling food as soon as Saturday’s attack began but fear that despite Hamas assurances supplies will run low.
With Israel cutting off electricity supplies into Gaza, a looming fuel shortage means private generators as well as the enclave’s own power station, which is still providing about four hours of energy a day, will struggle to function.
Electricity shortages mean residents cannot recharge phones, so are cut off from news of each other and from events, and are unable to pump water into rooftop tanks.
At night the enclave is plunged into total darkness, punctuated by the blasts of air strikes.
War is indeed hell, my friend.
War is indeed hell, my friend.
I prefer Hawkeye’s take: War is war and hell is hell…
Too bad, because they clearly harbor terrorists who have invited war on them.
Am I supposed to feel bad when they FAFO?
Where exactly are the Palestinians supposed to settle? The Israelis took their land, homes, and businesses, so a great many Palestinians are impoverished. Many can’t afford to move. It’s not like the Palestinian government can just purchase land and build new cities elsewhere as it’s poor too. If the Palestinians were to all move to any other country, they’d largely be refugees, reliant on their host country for food and shelter, which is a huge financial drain. Who is going to take and care for all of them?
And if they were to move, Israel would take over the evacuated area. It’ll be enough for awhile, but the population is ever growing. Who will Israel invade next?
Didn’t the Palestinians also “evict” all Jewish people? They went to Israel because they were refugees. It was about the same amount of people who fled from both sides. The only difference is that Palestinians grew from under a million refugees to more than 5 million by now. That is why they want Israel. Where would you have the Jewish people go? The Hamas want all Jews gone.
That’s the biggest pile of regurgitated Israeli propaganda I’ve seen yet. People existed in the Palestine area before the beginnings of the formation of Israel. Said formation was largely begun by the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, which resulted in waves of Jewish immigrants into Palestine. Israel was officially created in 1948 by the Israeli Declaration of Independence.
So, to simplify it - Palestinians lived in Palestine. The United Nations declared support for a Jewish “national home” in Palestine, a place already occupied by Palestinians. Lots of settlers moved to the area and began to displace Palestinians, causing tensions between the two groups. Israel declared its Independence in 1948. Supported by the United Nations, Israel continued to displace Palestinians and expand the borders of Israel, evicting Palestinians from their homes to be replaced by Israeli settlers. Rinse and repeat for nearly eighty years, interspersed with Israel playing the victim and acting surprised their continued genocide of the Palestinians has resulted in the formation of terrorist groups.
Can you give me a source for your side on this? Because on Wikipedia they describe it quite differently.
And also, aren’t these actual quotes from the Hamas covenant?
Palestine is an Islamic land… Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be.
[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement… Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam… There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.
The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.
And so forth. Source: https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
To me this sounds like a religious motivated anti-semitic war against Jews in general.
Yep, here are articles. As to the motivation for war, it absolutely has antisemitic elements, but I was never disputing or even discussing that. I’m simply refuting the commonly spread propaganda that the Palestinians are somehow ungrateful refugees looking to take the Israeli’s land. It’s pretty well the other way around.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_for_Palestine
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
I’d love to see this Wikipedia article you mention.
And if they were to move, Israel would take over the evacuated area. It’ll be enough for awhile, but the population is ever growing. Who will Israel invade next?
That is so bad faith. There is plenty of dessert left to expand into.
Where exactly are the Palestinians supposed to settle? The Israelis took their land, homes, and businesses, so a great many Palestinians are impoverished. Many can’t afford to move.
A great start would be to stop all this militant jihad nonsense and concentrate on stability and engaging with the Israeli economy. If you keep having thoughts of causing harm to Israel, why would anyone on their side want to employ you people.
Quit shooting yourselves in the feet.
Lol, “you people”. I think we’ve found an Israeli apartheid supporter.
If there’s so much “dessert” to go around, why don’t the Israelis fuck off and go there instead? The Palestinians were there first, they’re the invaders.
Nope, the Israelis and Palestinians have claims to the region and the Israelis did historically live there during Ottoman times. The Palestinians don’t have a better claim than the Israelis.
Also, Israel built infrastructure to make the dessert livable. That’s not free.
Palestine lost the war, they should stop being belligerent so that Israel can trust them to not be terrorists. That’s the whole reason why there’s an apartheid. They’ve made their bed for themselves.
It’s amazing the mental gymnastics that pro-Israel propagandists will go through to justify the genocide of an entire people. By your shitty logic, I should be able to go back to my childhood home, kill a few of the people who live there now, and feel justified moving in with the survivors, taking over a bedroom or two. It was mine before, after all, and I never agreed to sell it to them. I’m not responsible for the actions of my parents, right?
I would then play the victim when the survivors fight back as I systematically drive the rest of the household out and replace them with my friends and family. Then we’d start taking over neighbor’s houses. Sure, we didn’t live there before, but we’re a growing community and I’ll play off the retaliation of the first household as indicative of their “sub-human” nature. It was always my house, they were just squatting there so how dare they fight back. When the neighborhood gets fed up with our bullshit and starts burning our houses down, we’ll collectively pull a “surprised Pikachu face” - we didn’t do anything wrong, there’s no way this could have been foreseen, much less prevented!
Edit: thank dog, another propagandist banned.
who lived somewhere hundreds of years ago matters little compared to who lives in a place for the last few generations, as it is those people who get displaced in these kind of things, not the people who lived during the time of the Ottomans
Mhm, so the historical claims of so many countries about this shallow should be at risk too huh.
Also, did we forget that the British promised both Palestine and Israel these lands? Palestine tried to wipe out the Israelis and they and their allies have been on a losing streak ever since. That includes the loss of land in a conflict. You know, consequences.
Do you think a Palestinian passport makes countries welcome you with open arms?
Israel isn’t going anywhere
Great, they should help out their Palestinian citizens who are obviously suffering.
You know why their passport is weak? Because everywhere they went and got absorbed into the general population, they fermented revolution against the country they were in.
They did it to themselves.
It’s clear that Palestinians are not interested in peace with Israel, so why ask for help?
This is racist and xenophobic. Undeniably so.
Explain how these facts are racist and xenophobic.
Dude. That is a two line Reddit comment, out of context and incomprehensible in regard to the present discussion. It’s clear why you only included the link but didn’t copy/paste the part to which you were pointing. This is what you linked to:
I know they have been brought into other countries in the past. How has that gone?
Two examples:
Jordan: Black September (Arabic: أيلول الأسود Aylūl al-ʾAswad), also known as the Jordanian Civil War, was an armed conflict between Jordan, led by King Hussein, and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), led by chairman Yasser Arafat
Lebanon: The Lebanese Civil War (Arabic: الحرب الأهلية اللبنانية, romanized: Al-Ḥarb al-Ahliyyah al-Libnāniyyah) was a multifaceted armed conflict that took place from 1975 to 1990. It resulted in an estimated 120,000 fatalities. Fighting between Maronite-Christian and Palestinian forces (mainly from the Palestine Liberation Organization) began in 1975; leftist, Muslim, and pan-Arabist Lebanese groups formed an alliance with the Palestinians in Lebanon.
That’s it. That’s all there is. No prior context, no explanation. There might be if I decided to hunt down the preceding comment, but low effort deserves low effort. Complete waste of time.
Posting it here so no one else falls for it.
Because everywhere they went and got absorbed into the general population, they fermented revolution against the country they were in.
Conveniently ignoring the fact that I am referencing their sources.
Its always some loser with an anime pfp
Ahh, the good old “Ukraine should make territorial concessions for peace” style of “argument”…
Because history has shown that conceding territory to Israel or Russia is such a great way to stop them from coming again later, killing more people and “be willing to stop” for more territory.
Exaxtly, Ukraine should just compromise and give up land to Russia.
They just need to read the writing on the wall.
I don’t know how this will do anything but result in another attack. Making people that desperate is not a solution that will work well. Plus, my fellow Jews should know better than intentionally starving desperate people.
I have a feeling that was the plan all along
Intentionally antagonize the Palestinians that’s already been antagonized for decades … push them over the edge to make them make the first move.
Then once the first move is made … move in and completely annihilate them under the guise of justified retaliation.
When it comes to one of the most well organized, well trained, well funded militaries and intelligence organizations in the world … I don’t think anyone can surprise them with a major attack.
The Israelis knew this would happen … because they know how they will respond.
Thousands injured, almost a thousand murdered and hundreds kidnapped including women and children sounds like “the plan” to you? I’m not saying they’re saints but how can you say a country would go to war as a PR move just to see their already antagonized enemies suffer? This attack was planned for about a year with the help of Iran on a shabbat, alongside a rocket barrage to keep soldiers from mobilizing and joining in to help, but you honestly believe Israel were the ones who planned this.
Israel has been executing their apartheid plan for 80 years.
Palestinian attack as justification for massive Israeli reprisal has been part of their plan for nearly as long.
Always be sure to capitalise on a crisis.
It’s not a traditional plan where everything is controlled.
It’s an orchestrated set of circumstances where you place your opponent in a difficult situation and force them to make the first move.
Then when your opponent makes the first move, you can carry out what you want without being blamed for starting anything.
America did it in 2001, and Israel is at least as morally bankrupt as the US.
Of course you believe in such conspiracy theories.
The idea that the guys in government in Israel care for the lives of a few thousand people is as funny as it gets.
I mean weren’t Israelis recently demonstrating because these very same people wanted to destroy the independence of the Judiciary, which is required for it to function as a Pillar of Democracy, so in effect wanted to undermine Democracy and spread autocracy in Israel from a problem only of people with Arab Citizenship to people with Jewish Citizenship (yeah, Israel, uniquelly amongst “democracies” has a concept of citizenship with associated rights which is separate from nationality).
You can’t seriously belive such people care for a few thousand lives, no mater their nationality, especially if their deaths can be turned into a way to hold on to power and escape Justice (how’s Bibi process going?).
I mean, even if they just had a general retaliation plan in case this ever happened…it is hard to believe Israel, with all its Western support, didn’t see this coming. And they have been bombing Gaza indescriminatly for years, with the only justification being “Well, Hamas was there, probably…”
starving Palestinians out like this, will force them into the desperate move attacking Israel. Israel can therefore declare them as terrorists and shoot them indiscriminately.  I hope that I’m wrong and this isn’t a tactical decision
The Egyptian border is still open. Food can still get in.
It is currently closed because of an Israeli air strike. Might open again tomorrow. Or it might be bombed again.
Exactly, what did they think they’ll achieve but even more resentment and hate?
I honestly don’t know, but Neteyahu is one of the most evil people in the 21st century, so I have very little hope for the innocent Palestinians caught in the middle of this.
Some people are bandying about some statistic out there of a majority of Palestinians approving of Hamas. First of all, that was before this happened, and secondly, approval is not the same as aid. The vast majority of them had nothing to do with this and are caught in the middle. Now at least 500 are dead in this current conflict.
Not just Palestinians, innocent Israelis are going to die from these decisions. I was following the judiciary saga in Israel a little, and I hope Israelis will eventually win the fight against this tyrant wannabe.
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It’s very politically divided, and almost impossible to form a coalition. You can just look at their history to see as much. It’s a government built on the coalition of fascists, liberals, and socialists. Very diverse in thought.
Since the Likud was the only one that could prove it could form a government…
I mean it’s very politically divided, but in terms of securing Israel, most opposition leaders called 9ff protests and united behind Netanyahu since there are still Hamas militants in Israel.
They expect to get the hostages back.
The intent is to make it impossible for there to be another attack.
Yep
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So they will kill all people in Gaza?
I always thought that is what Israel wanted anyway.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
“They’re wrecking homes and destroying infrastructure, but at least they’re nice about it!”
Israel is in the wrong because they’re settler colonialists who stole the land from Palestinians. There is no defensive acts, continued occupation and protection of their occupation is an offensive act.
This kind of attitude just means more conflict because Israel is never going to leave that land.
If you’ve read the news lately you might notice that several just did.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites?
Send in ground forces that can separate fighters from civilians in a way that leveling a building and killing everyone inside cannot.
Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes
So saying “attention, we will destroy your home, all your possessions, and your livelihood in 15 minutes”, before doing exactly that to Innocent people makes them the good guys? I don’t think so.
So, it’s an unattended concentration camp, and they hope everyone dies there.
If history’s taught us anything, it’s that the good guys always indiscriminately target civilians!
Well, killing some and hope the rest will try to flee to Egypt at which point Gaza is free for the taking.
Or well, maybe, they hope that in desperation people will try to rush the blockade, at which point they just kill them. Hamas awful actions have given Israel plenty of ammunition to keep everyone else on the world stage away for a while, no matter what they do now.
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No, and that was never the plan. Had it been Israel has far more efficient ways of doing it. The goal is to put the pressure on Hamas, two million people worth of pressure. You can claim you are fighting for freedom until stomachs start grumbling. Then Israel hopes Palestinians will turn on Hamas and the whole thing will be over or at least at a different stage where something can be done without wiping the whole place.
naive
So if it’s a total blockade now, what was it before? (hint: it was also a blockade then, has been since 2007)
It’s saddening to see Israel’s military (which is not Israel) attack civilians and civilian infrastructure in retaliation for Hamas (which is not Palestine) having attacked civilians and civilian infrastructure- this is all a shit-show of punishing the innocent to get the other side to back down and it will never end.
They were allowing them access to electricity and food supplies before
Other nation on land you claim
box them in, stop food shipments
Wait, that kinda reminds me of something recent…
It was a blockade looking for components that could be used to make rockets. Goods could (and did) come through after inspection.
Well it’s one thing to blockade a region during a war/conflict (which even has a border with Egypt) and killing and raping hundreds of festival attendees…
Why don’t they have trade or receive resources from Egypt?
Yep, very bad moves by Hamas troops to do that. Doesn’t take away from Israel’s war crimes and genocide.
It’s saddening to see Israel’s military attack civilians and civilian infrastructure in retaliation for Hamas having attacked civilians and civilian infrastructure.
That’s because there is no difference between Hamas infrastructure and Civilian infrastructure in Palestine. They deliberately use residential buildings for their operations so that if Israel retaliates against an attack, even if they’re striking a building actively shooting rockets at them, that they are forced to kill civilians being used as human shields. Hamas blurs the lines on purpose, so that Israel can’t strike them without being blamed for the collateral damage.
There are only two ways around this:
- Israel does nothing when they are attacked so that not a single innocent Palestinian dies, and accepts regular bombings as a way of life.
- Israel obliterates Hamas military targets, and passes the blame of the collateral damage to Hamas for using human shields.
I used to think that option #1 was the most humanitarian approach, but #2 is pragmatic. Eventually you have to stop letting your enemy make the rules, and defend yourself. Killing civilians may be a war crime, but so is using human shields, so if Palestinian civilians are killed because they are being used a shields by Hamas, it follows that you blame Hamas for using human shields, not Israel for striking military targets being used to kill Israeli civilians.
Eventually you have to stop letting your enemy make the rules, and defend yourself.
Well, it looks to me like both sides are convinced that unless they punish the other side, the other side will keep on doing what they’ve been doing. Acting on that belief only provides evidence for the other side for the case that the other will stop at nothing but the other’s extinction, that the only rational course of action is yet more offensive action until the other side finally capitulates- …which seems unlikely to ever happen so long as Palestine remains the accepted battlefield for the proxy war that this conflict is.
Yes, Hamas commits war crimes by using civilian infra Yes, Israel commits war crimes by bombing it The context of this exchange of atrocities is… the occupation of Gaza, which meets too many of the measures of a genocide. At this point, neither Israel nor Hamas are defending themselves, they’re cooperating in the genocide of Palestinians The broader context of that is that Israel:Palestine is a proxy conflict between their respective allies, who are just fine watching Palestine burn
Making one giant concentration camp.
Huh.
To be fair, it already was a giant concentration camp. That’s the reason they got uppity in the first place.
Are you suggesting that Israel should be bound by international law to not impose collective punishment, while the state of Palestine is killing and kidnapping civilians and clearly not hindered by it? Palestine is a hostile nation that just launched a bloody attack on civilians. Aren’t the effects of a war typically felt by all members of a state participating in it?
Yes of course.
If a nation states justification for violating such laws is that a terrorist organization is doing too, then they fucked up completely.
Seriously, partisan operations tend to be war crimes. That doesn’t mean that shooting the entire village is now acceptable. You get hanged for that.
If a nation states justification for violating such laws is that a terrorist organization is doing too, then they fucked up completely.
This terrorist organization, Hamas, runs the government in Gaza. They were elected in democratic elections in 2006 and no elections have been held since. This is an attack from a terrorist state, not an example of clandestine civilians acting on their own.
The Hamas is called a terrorist organization by Israel, most NATO countries and many others. It is the official language of the Western nations and neither Gaza nor Palestine ist recognized as a “state” by Israel or again most of NATO.
Adding more hypocricsy to the hypocricsy doesn’t make it better as a justification.
Although that is true, the state of Palestine has significant international recognition.
Terrorism is most obviously defined by attacks on civilians for political ends. Hamas, who is in charge of Gaza, just orchestrated the murder of 1000+ civilians. I’m at a loss as to how one can try to portray this as not a terrorist state. An EDM concert full of civilian youths is not a valid military target, this wasn’t collateral damage, it was an intentional attack on civilians.
Is it any wonder NATO and Israel doesn’t want to normalize relations with them?
No.I do believe Israel should respect international law. This doesn’t mean I approve of what Hamas did.
Gaza is still accessible via Egypt, supply lines can still remain open. It seems absurd to suggest Israel should be forced to aid and supply a hostile state that is currently killing their civilians. A blockade seems appropriate to me given the circumstances.
Theoretically if Mexico invaded the US we should still keep supplying them with energy, food and water while they attack us because otherwise it’s collective punishment?
It’s still a war crime. Article 54 of Protocol I and Article 14 of Protocol II.
- Food and water can still get in via the Egyptian border, supply lines are still open. This isn’t a mediaeval siege, if starvation were the goal no border crossings would be allowed.
- Funny how in this conflict one side is expected to adhere to international law while the other side totally ignores it, intentionally attacks civilians, takes hostages, launches missiles indiscriminately at civilian centers, etc., If Israel adopted the tactics Palestine is willing to employ there would be no Palestine.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. A single severely restricted border crossing is not a replacement for water and electricity mains. Restricting necessities of life is a war crime
My back of the napkin math suggests there would need to be over 4,000 tanker trucks filled with water moving through that checkpoint every day
If you were to take a guess at the ratio of Palestine civilians to Israeli civilians that have been killed in the last 50 years. What would it be?
I would guess that Palestinian civilian death counts are significantly higher, as most of the fighting has been done within occupied Palestinian territories, civilian uprisings happen against the IDF often there, Israel can bomb targets in Palestine freely causing collateral damage while they are protected by the Iron Dome, Hamas and other such groups are fighting a guerilla war by hiding among civilians, and you wouldn’t have brought it up were it not a huge ratio. 9:1?
With all the civilians they intentionally murdered the ratio is certainly moving in their favor now.
An eye for an eye, leaving the world blind.
Yeah Israel is expected to obey international law because it gets $3.8 billion a year in funding from the US to support their military. If Israel refuses to follow international law then the US is effectively giving that money to terrorists.
The Rafah border crossing is currently closed due to an Israeli air strike. Might reopen tomorrow. Might be bombed again.
Egypt is as hostile to Gaza or worse, but they get a free pass not being Jewish.
they Israel should divest from the region and let them sort their own stuff out. instead they meddle and remain in control.
They should stop occupying the foreign hostile power that is presently attacking, killing, and kidnapping their civilians with guerilla attacks? Given that Hamas refuses to negotiate or make concessions in return, that sounds like bad game theory.
[Hamas’s charter,] article 13, “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
And what’s your wise opinion on the illegal settlements?
I don’t like the fundies who are doing it or the way they treat the locals. They are clearly an encroachment on Palestinian territory, and I can understand why they represent an existential threat to Palestine and are such a point of contention.
I understand why Palestine loathes them, and why Israel ignores them. From the Israeli perspective ignoring them is good game theory. This is a reasonable, (but perhaps not ethical,) response to an enemy who refuses to negotiate a viable solution despite the realities of the situation. Unless Palestine comes to the bargaining table in good faith, willing to make some concessions, they will eventually lose everything. This puts continual pressure on them to do so, if they do not they will continue to lose territory. They have been overwhelmingly defeated time and time again but refuse to acknowledge this, leaving Israel with few viable options to deal with the threat that a hostile and belligerent Palestine represents. There’s little else they can take from them but the land, and they still seem unwilling to compromise. This will either bring them to the table or leave them without a home, either way resolving the threat in their favor.
They should stop occupying the foreign
Calling the native population foreign is certainly a take. If you are a mask off dipshit that is. And yes they should stop occupying.
Calling the native population foreign is certainly a take.
Are you saying Palestine isn’t a state, or that Israel isn’t a state? Because if they are two states as they claim, inhabitants of one are definitely foreign to the other.
Israel as the occupying power had already been breaking international law so a bit more won’t make much difference.
So, a minister of a Jewish state compares another nation to animals and decides that genocide is the proper solution Ironic.gif
The Israeli government has been waiting for an excuse to do this for years. Finally, they’ll get the land and homes of all the people who were there before them and the Western world will largely support them. It’s disgusting.
Everytime there is a war with Israel this is said. But yet it never happens… Israel control the area for a short time and gives it back when things calm down
It sounds bad, but it makes sense when you look at things through a historical context.
Well. . . it sounds bad because it is bad.
People want revolutionaries under constant oppression and inequality to fight a “fair, modern war” against one of the most well-funded militaries in the region.
Are people stupid? Palestine, unlike Ukraine, doesn’t have the privilege of fighting an equal war.
One could say just fight against those doing the oppression then. Its not just cowardly to hunt and kill innocent civilians, it’s inhumane. The same point goes to both sides. Israelis killing hamas terrorists is a-OK from me. Collateral damage not so. Hamas terrorists killing innocent civilians is just as bad. This isn’t even collateral damage, they intentionally sought them out to send a message.
Hamas will use Palestinian corpses to bury Israel, and Bibi is undoubtedly salivating at the chance to wipe the Palestinians out because he’s, ironically, seemingly after a Jewish ethnostate.
Israel conveniently has a forever enemy in Hamas, who give no shits about Palestine. It’s all a big game and everyone loses.
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Nobody said “white privilege”, you conservative snowflake. The simple fact is that revolutions are messy, even completely justified ones.
Hamas isn’t acting in a revolutionary capacity, they would sacrifice every last Palestinian for the chance to kill one more Israeli. Acting like they fucking care, give me a break. They’re just animals.
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I am not sure they understand what total means. Hamas didn’t get those rockets from Israel - hense there must be an unmonitored way in from Egypt that Hamas controls.
If there is, all food comes now from Hamas = Palestinians support Hamas more. If that gets cut, videos of mass starvation will eventually pull other Muslim countries into the conflict.
Likely Israel is planning to gain control of the border with Egypt to cut off anything coming in that way, and either annexing that border strip outright or maintaining control of the border will be part of the peace terms.
Irrespective of stopping the movement of new arms and missiles into Gaza, more hawkish israelis would probably salivate over being able to shut down all trade into Gaza every time they shoot off missiles, especially since every time they do it weakens confidence in being able to trade into Gaza, raising the costs for anyone trying to import anything into Gaza, and lowering the sell value of any goods made in Gaza.
Israel has announced a “total” blockade of the already besieged Gaza Strip, including a ban on food and water, after Hamas carried out the biggest attack on the country in decades.
Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said on Monday authorities would cut electricity and block the entry of food and fuel as part of “a complete siege” on Hamas-run Gaza, where about 2.3 million people live in one of the most densely populated areas in the world.
der crossing points; the third is controlled by Egypt.
“We are putting a complete siege on Gaza … No electricity, no food, no water, no gas – it’s all closed,” Gallant said in a video statement.
Israel’s chief military spokesperson, Daniel Hagari, told reporters on Monday that Israel has “control” of its communities following Saturday’s mass incursion of Hamas fighters into its territory.
Hagari said there had been some isolated incidents on Monday morning, but that “at this stage, there is no fighting in the communities”.
He added that “there might still be terrorists in the region”.
Israeli tanks and drones were guarding openings in the fence to prevent more infiltrations, Hagari said, adding that 15 of 24 border communities had been evacuated, with the rest expected to be evacuated over the next 24 hours.
Earlier, Hamas spokesperson Abdel-Latif al-Qanoua told The Associated Press news agency that the group’s fighters continued to battle outside Gaza and had captured more Israelis as recently as Monday morning.
He said the group aims to free all Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, which in the past has agreed to lopsided exchange deals in which it released large numbers of prisoners for individual captives or even the remains of soldiers.
SOURCE: AL JAZEERA AND NEWS AGENCIES
I’m sure this will in no way backfire.
All those who condemned Hamas for attacking civilians, I wonder if they will have the same energy when Israel starves civilians?
Yes. I condemn both. And I don’t play the “which is worse” game. They are both unacceptable evils. Israel needs to stop this immediately and, at the very least, negotiate a peace if not some sort of solution to the whole issue (hopefully including at least some right of return) and Hamas needs to return the hostages.
You don’t need to pick a side when both sides are committing atrocities.
One of these “sides” could unilaterally peacefully end the conflict. For the other side choosing “peace” just means submitting to living under an occupying force as eternal second class citizens. insert mlk quote here.
If you really think that Israel casually choosing to disarm itself doesn’t immediately end with it being destroyed, I’d invite you to look at the 2005 IDF withdrawal from Gaza, which was done as a token of goodwill on the path to peace.
Gazans then elected Hamas and immediately began launching rockets. Israel won’t make that mistake again.
why did they simply not have another election? or has another entity completely stopped that?
Yeah, both the Fatah and Gaza because both know that Palestinian people have largely become fed up with their combined inefficacy in trying to make a country of millions with a superior military just disappear.
Not to mention Iran constantly intervening to keep Hamas armed enough to suppress dissent.
You know you can read about it yourself instead of asking strangely suggestive questions
“They”, meaning the Israeli government, couldn’t force an election because they withdrew from Gaza and have no direct power there. Hamas suspended democracy to any meaningful degree because they don’t care about it. In the West Bank, elections have been suspended by the Palestinian Authority because it’s likely that Hamas would win them and create another Gaza, which Israel would not allow to happen.
How do you unilaterally declare peace?
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Hamas wants all Jews gone. So I don’t see how that is in any way better?
You can’t unilaterally declare peace. That’s just an oxymoron.
Yes you can. Three examples: russia can unilaterally declare peace with Ukraine and stop the war; China can unilaterally declare peace with Taiwan and stop threatening to invade them; North Korea can unilaterally declare peace with South and maybe not reintegrate because Kim doesn’t want to give up his privileges but at least the sabre rattling can stop. So Hamas can similarly unilaterally declare peace with Israel, remove the “all Israel must die” from its constitution and start on the path toward some meaningful peace. But that’s difficult, and firing rockets is easy, so lEt’S fIrE RoCkEtS!!11!1!! And by not firing rockets at Israel they can show the world exactly how hostile Israel are towards them without the excuse of responding to their attacks, although the obvious problem with that is that it would be “not at all” which would prove the hostilities have all been exclusively caused by Hamas.
Exactly how to declare peace: we’re going to put our big boy trousers on now and just choose to end all the tit for tat. Yes we all know they just did that really mean thing but it has to end one way or another and we’re choosing to end it now by choosing a peaceful response. If the old enemy insist on continuing to attack then we will still refuse to fight and we can show the international community how awful they really are and how we’re trying our best.
But unfortunately we all know that Kim’s, Xi’s, putin’s and Hamas’ big boy trouser hangars are all empty.
The hostages are probably one of the things keeping some areas in Gaza secure. Was a effective move to gather as many as you can, not only as bargaining chips but strategically.
Hamaz will use them as human shields in important positions, Isreal gives little fucks about dead Palestinians, thing changes when it’s your own civilians you bomb.
They should not give them back if they want to be able to operate a little further and prepare for a possible ground assault by Israel.
That’s what their soldiers are more effective in, no sense in getting bombed without aa.
Was raping them and recording it also to keep Israel at bay?
No, that was the work of really depraved men. It’s not excusable, and I wish them the worst death has to offer.
My comment went more into a tactical, not a moral direction.
FAFO. I’m not sure what else was going to happen.
Israel has been fucking around for decades. Yet i bet you dont use that cop out for the attack on the weekend.
How were people peacefully attending a festival fucking around? Hmm?
Partying in an apartheid state?
Like shit, maybe it’s not a good idea to have a rave with the bastards commiting genocide and crimes against humanity on stolen land?
Strange fucking genocide. And as to whether the land was stolen, I’m sorry, but at this point, it doesn’t matter. There was a partition plan, the Arabs wouldn’t accept it, fought a bunch of wars, and got their shit kicked in. FAFO.
Welp, whatever goodwill and sympathy I had for Israel just went poof. Less than 24 hours too, gotta be a record for them.
Funny, I feel the same way about Palestine. Their army of terrorists was raping young women next to their dead civilian friends at a concert promoting peace and love, while slaughtering unarmed edm kids trying to escape in the hundreds:
Others were captured and bound and kidnapped. “I saw videos with a male getting held by a group of Arab kids. Like, they’re like 16, 17,” one survivor recalled. “They’re kids, but they’re young men already, and they’re holding this guy, and he looks as his girlfriend is being mounted on a bike and driven away from him. God knows what she’s going to experience … Women have been raped at the area of the rave next to their friends bodies, dead bodies.”
Several of these rape victims appear to have been later executed. Others were taken to Gaza. In photographs released online, you can see several paraded through the city’s streets, blood gushing from between their legs.
One survivor who’d returned to the scene later in the day to look for his friends spoke, in a breaking voice, of what he’d seen. Of the bodies, mainly of young women, lying cold and mutilated. Of scantily clad corpses, many of whom appeared to have been shot at point-blank. Of cars, perforated by bullets or blown up by grenades.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-accountClosing the borders and shutting off supplies provided by the nation they attacked is enough to make you lose sympathy for victims of such acts? Your sense of moral equivalence seems broken.
Maybe don’t have your “festival for peace and love” in an apartheid state about 5km from one of the most contested borders in the world? Not saying what Hamas did was right but goddamn was that some ignorant yuppie shit to have a music festival right there
I won’t deny my original thought on hearing this was who would be reckless enough to have a festival in this powderkeg of a region but reading this makes me hate myself for that. These are innocent folks trying to enjoy themselves in what is the most disheartening places in the world and its ridiculous to somehow blame them for what happened and what they’ve gone through.
You mean the very popular concert site that the Gazans also make frequent use of for their own festivals?
Nevermind that, how about shut right the fuck up if you’re going to try and victim blame raped civilians for being in too close proximity to the monsters that decided they were gonna go do some raping today.
It’s one of the most heinous active choices a person can make, and the people who’d actively try to defend someone making such a vile and inhuman choice are second only to such in moral bankruptcy.
You know what I’ll give people under 21 who were born in Israel a pass. Literally everyone else chose to be in that fucked up country in that fucked up part of the world at that time. If you are a grown ass adult actively choosing to be part of the problem, by living in/traveling to/paying taxes in this horrible apartheid state, you deserve what happened to you.
The terrorists who carried out this event are even more despicable. There is never any reason to commit these kind of atrocities be it religion or whatever else.
If they didn’t want to be violently raped and murdered why did they dress and behave so provocatively by holding a peaceful dance party nearby? Yeah clearly it was their fault. 🙄
It was mostly the “living in an apartheid state” part, actually.
Did you know that 20% of citizens of Israel identify as Arab or Palestinean? Maybe it’s not about race and calling this apartheid is reductionist to the point of absurdity.
@DarkGamer @tryptaminev @HidingCat @Cjwii @TheTetrapod That sounds great, until you see how they’re treated as 2nd class citizens
That’s like saying that because a significant portion of South Africans were black, apartheid never existed. Which is ridiculous.
@DarkGamer @tryptaminev @HidingCat Sympathy for the victims yes, however collective punishment is a war crime
So yeah, that’s still a thing that sickens good people against Israel’s actions
This conflict has been bringing out the absolute worst in people. Lemmy is acting more civil than reddit, but fuck… it’s not great. I see why this subject is avoided.
I’m not sure if this is better or worse than what I was expecting,
I was worried about the Israelis just storming right back in there and going full Srebenica over this.
