If the White House gets taken over and burned down, can we safely call this a full blown revolution? I mean, DC is already burning...At the slightest opportunity, that shits getting swamped by protestors.We are living within arm’s length of the unimaginable.— Revolutionary Left Radio (@RevLeftRadio) June 1, 2020
I don’t believe it. The protestors don’t seem like they want to institute socialism just yet. They seem to still be demanding that the existing powers meet their demands rather than take power for themselves. I’ll start believing it’s close to revolution if they demonstrate they can overcome armed, lethal repression or if they get the national guard to defect.
Even then, I’m doubtful since liberalism still permeates society to such a sickening degree and would coalesce immediately into a counterrevolutionary force that either crushes the rebellion swiftly or failing that, plunge the nation into a state of civil war.
perhaps, but can you not see the opportunity before us comrade? Keep in mind that the state uses lethal force already, at home and abroad. George Floyd and millions of Iraqis could tell you this if they were alive today. Revolutionaries would only be sacrificing their privilege to risk that same violence
I can see the opportunity certainly, but a revolution is on a whole other level than what we’ve been seeing so far which is still largely marches and parades. I mean the state can use lethal force all they want, my question to the unarmed protestors is if they can beat any of it. A hundred million US citizens could rise up tomorrow and decide to do revolution for real (instead of being dispersed by tear gas and rubber bullets) and at the end of the day if all 100 million were mowed down by the military, that still does not count as OVERCOMING repression.
I want to think army morale would crumble before it got that bad, but if we’ve learned anything thru history, USA doesn’t have a fucking heart. :worried face:
Yep, that’s flat out why I’m such a cynical person today. The class that we are dealing with is willing to go to war constantly, is willing to engage in slavery and colonialism, is willing to use nuclear weapons, is willing to enact fascist genocide, is at worst willing to encourage and at best tolerate an extinction-level threat to humanity. If there’s one thing I can count on the bourgeoisie for, it’s their sheer ruthlessness. When it comes to protecting capital, nothing is too low for them it seems.
Agreed, the protests are still confused and the liberal identity politics narrative still dominates.
Class consciousness seems to not have developed sufficiently and many of the protests are being lead by liberal activists. Maybe many will develop class consciousness after the protests fail to get any changes
It is also still possible for the USA to stabilize itself with expanding welfare spending, such as if Sleepy Joe actually implements a diluted version of Crazy Bernie’s programs, as he occasionally hints in a no-promises way
? I think you seem to be confused here. What is meant here by liberal IDpol narrative? The protests from the get-go were never about socialist revolution, but rather black lives. You seem to be insinuating that this was somehow about demanding socialism at the start and then people started making it about black lives. At best, it’s anti-capitalist and not pro-socialist.
Now, this is not to say that the protests aren’t targeting capitalism. They are but not in the way you seem to think since you brought up welfare spending for some odd reason about protests that have very little to do with the economic crisis on its face. There doesn’t seem to be a 1%/99% nominally class-based rhetoric going on in these protests.
OK, so one thing I’ve seen pop up frequently on Twitter is abolition of the police so that they can’t threaten black lives. Now, for us sly folks on a communist forum who know the function of the state, we also happen to know what this means ultimately: breaking one of the arms that uphold capitalist relations, that is, breaking the ability to enforce property claims at the heart of the system. This is the really exciting demand and yes, the liberals are already trying to distort the meaning of the word ‘abolition’ since they know, whether consciously or not, of the implicit threat to property rights.
Of course, all that I’ve written so far is premised on the accuracy of what I see on left twitter. I’m not on the ground at any of these protests. If you are, maybe you can correct me.
Also, they wont abolish the police. As you said - property rights. They have “abolished” the Minneapolis PD, which means the area will be taken care of by another PD.
At most, there will be some commitment to “ethical” policing
Other capitalist nations increased welfare spending and most people have been happy to stay at home due to the pandemic. It makes it easier to isolate the protests
In a few months more people will run out of money and the USA will risk falling into deeper crisis. Many corporations likely going bankrupt etc etc. so it would be wise of them to increase welfare payments
3: Remember Week 1 of protests - much property damage and looting of shops, with some expressions of disillusionment with economic system
Identity politics as a containment strategy: Identity politics reimagines racism and sexism without its economic and societal context. Discrimination is seen as due to individual choices. The system can be fixed by getting more minority representation in the leadership.
After the first few days, liberal identity politics activists (Democrats and other associates) gained control over the protests and directed them toward making limited demands, such as prosecution of the police officers, commitment to ethical policing, increased minority representation in government and blaming Dotard for everything. These demands do not threaten the ruling classes in any way.
As a result, when these limited demands are met, and Dotard is voted out and possibly imprisoned, protesters will feel like they have won, when in fact they have gained very little.
I don’t believe it. The protestors don’t seem like they want to institute socialism just yet. They seem to still be demanding that the existing powers meet their demands rather than take power for themselves. I’ll start believing it’s close to revolution if they demonstrate they can overcome armed, lethal repression or if they get the national guard to defect.
Even then, I’m doubtful since liberalism still permeates society to such a sickening degree and would coalesce immediately into a counterrevolutionary force that either crushes the rebellion swiftly or failing that, plunge the nation into a state of civil war.
perhaps, but can you not see the opportunity before us comrade? Keep in mind that the state uses lethal force already, at home and abroad. George Floyd and millions of Iraqis could tell you this if they were alive today. Revolutionaries would only be sacrificing their privilege to risk that same violence
I can see the opportunity certainly, but a revolution is on a whole other level than what we’ve been seeing so far which is still largely marches and parades. I mean the state can use lethal force all they want, my question to the unarmed protestors is if they can beat any of it. A hundred million US citizens could rise up tomorrow and decide to do revolution for real (instead of being dispersed by tear gas and rubber bullets) and at the end of the day if all 100 million were mowed down by the military, that still does not count as OVERCOMING repression.
I want to think army morale would crumble before it got that bad, but if we’ve learned anything thru history, USA doesn’t have a fucking heart. :worried face:
Yep, that’s flat out why I’m such a cynical person today. The class that we are dealing with is willing to go to war constantly, is willing to engage in slavery and colonialism, is willing to use nuclear weapons, is willing to enact fascist genocide, is at worst willing to encourage and at best tolerate an extinction-level threat to humanity. If there’s one thing I can count on the bourgeoisie for, it’s their sheer ruthlessness. When it comes to protecting capital, nothing is too low for them it seems.
Agreed, the protests are still confused and the liberal identity politics narrative still dominates.
Class consciousness seems to not have developed sufficiently and many of the protests are being lead by liberal activists. Maybe many will develop class consciousness after the protests fail to get any changes
It is also still possible for the USA to stabilize itself with expanding welfare spending, such as if Sleepy Joe actually implements a diluted version of Crazy Bernie’s programs, as he occasionally hints in a no-promises way
? I think you seem to be confused here. What is meant here by liberal IDpol narrative? The protests from the get-go were never about socialist revolution, but rather black lives. You seem to be insinuating that this was somehow about demanding socialism at the start and then people started making it about black lives. At best, it’s anti-capitalist and not pro-socialist.
Now, this is not to say that the protests aren’t targeting capitalism. They are but not in the way you seem to think since you brought up welfare spending for some odd reason about protests that have very little to do with the economic crisis on its face. There doesn’t seem to be a 1%/99% nominally class-based rhetoric going on in these protests.
OK, so one thing I’ve seen pop up frequently on Twitter is abolition of the police so that they can’t threaten black lives. Now, for us sly folks on a communist forum who know the function of the state, we also happen to know what this means ultimately: breaking one of the arms that uphold capitalist relations, that is, breaking the ability to enforce property claims at the heart of the system. This is the really exciting demand and yes, the liberals are already trying to distort the meaning of the word ‘abolition’ since they know, whether consciously or not, of the implicit threat to property rights.
Of course, all that I’ve written so far is premised on the accuracy of what I see on left twitter. I’m not on the ground at any of these protests. If you are, maybe you can correct me.
Also, they wont abolish the police. As you said - property rights. They have “abolished” the Minneapolis PD, which means the area will be taken care of by another PD.
At most, there will be some commitment to “ethical” policing
Other capitalist nations increased welfare spending and most people have been happy to stay at home due to the pandemic. It makes it easier to isolate the protests
In a few months more people will run out of money and the USA will risk falling into deeper crisis. Many corporations likely going bankrupt etc etc. so it would be wise of them to increase welfare payments
3: Remember Week 1 of protests - much property damage and looting of shops, with some expressions of disillusionment with economic system
Identity politics as a containment strategy: Identity politics reimagines racism and sexism without its economic and societal context. Discrimination is seen as due to individual choices. The system can be fixed by getting more minority representation in the leadership.
After the first few days, liberal identity politics activists (Democrats and other associates) gained control over the protests and directed them toward making limited demands, such as prosecution of the police officers, commitment to ethical policing, increased minority representation in government and blaming Dotard for everything. These demands do not threaten the ruling classes in any way.
As a result, when these limited demands are met, and Dotard is voted out and possibly imprisoned, protesters will feel like they have won, when in fact they have gained very little.