• Antikythera@lemmy.ml
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      11 months ago

      You’re not wrong, but just because the USA and UK got away with it doesn’t mean we should continue to let others get away with it. We can’t go back in time and fix it but we’ve got to start somewhere.

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        11 months ago

        Can you even manage in a fever dream to think that this would set a precedent that would result in the US ever getting punished?

        • TheMage@lemmy.ml
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          11 months ago

          Punished for what? Throwing money and military support towards everyone when they need it? Oh, that. Right. As always, hating the USA is what the cool kids do these days. Until they need taxpayer money or military support. I’d love to see us cut off every ounce of support we give to other nations and see how that works out.

          • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            11 months ago

            I’d love to see us cut off every ounce of support we give to other nations and see how that works out.

            Me too! It would be an incredible turn of events that would massively benefit the world. Could you throw in removing the blockades on Cuba and the DPRK and others while you are at it?

          • camaron30 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            11 months ago

            COOL. GO AHEAD.

            Lmao, the US, simultaneously the strongest and coolest country in the world and a cucked nation that can be bullied by even the smallest african country into giving away free protection.

            • Apollo@sh.itjust.works
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              11 months ago

              Are you guys from hexbear all 14 or something? I see a bunch of you posting infantile memes in response to criticism.

              • Hadriscus@lemm.ee
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                11 months ago

                they also assume everyone else is from the US and heartily supports imperialism somehow

                The three year long echo chamber did wonders it seems

          • Aria
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            11 months ago

            What support do you think you give? The “support” you give is either A) The cost of running your own propaganda, and paying target-nation actors. B) Weapons you buy from your own capitalists. C) Bribes in exchange for target-nation puppets to exploit their own people for the benefit of your capitalists. There is no fourth category.

        • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          11 months ago

          “Not arresting this black man for possession of 0.01 grams of weed isn’t going to go back in time and punish all those white guys we let go despite possessing much more weed. Cuff him, boys.”

      • StalinwasaGryffindor [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        11 months ago

        Why are we letting the people responsible for Iraq and Afghanistans current state get away with it? Like if the US wants to arrest a war criminal Bush and Cheney are right there. Same for Blair, or Harper, or any of the other architects of the invasions.

        • radiofreeval [any]@hexbear.net
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          11 months ago

          Because bourgeoisie law does three things. Firstly it protects capital against individuals. Secondly it protects itself against individuals so it can maintain “order”. Finally, it prevents capital against itself, to prevent it devouring itself in competition or sucking hard enough to create a revolutionary populace. Protecting individuals against each other or against capital is not the purpose of law enforcement, much less protecting people from war criminals. (Btw if anyone can find the parenti lecture this was based off, please tell me because i forget)

        • Antikythera@lemmy.ml
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          11 months ago

          I’m not saying they should get away with it, I’m just saying that we shouldn’t let Russia get away with it because the United States and the UK got away with it. It’s like the Boomer argument that it’s not fair to them for student loans to be forgiven because they had to pay.

              • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                11 months ago

                Do you not understand why I said that? I would not support student loan forgiveness only for white people because, while I like student loan forgiveness, I can recognize that such a program would ultimately just be in the interest of white supremacy. I wouldn’t pull the disingenuous liberal line of “you’ve gotta start somewhere” as though the policy was tethered to some imaginary future state that it is nominally more similar to but practically much further from.

                Likewise, saying “well, at least by holding Belarus to account some countries will be held to account, which gets us closer to all countries being held to account!” is absurd. It promotes western dominance, not the abstract idea of “holding countries to account”. Striking only one side saying that it’s closer to both sides being struck than striking zero sides would be is sophistry.

          • StalinwasaGryffindor [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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            11 months ago

            I’m not sure where in the world you live, but for myself, I’m in a western country. It would be far more easy for my country to hold the architects of the Afghanistan invasion to account than Putin. The fact that my government doesn’t indicates that all the talk of punishing Russia has nothing to do with punishing aggression, it’s just about punishing a rival

            • Apollo@sh.itjust.works
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              11 months ago

              It’s actually far easier to hold putin to account than western leaders - the western hegemony is hardly going to turn on itself, but it can easily send arms to Ukraine.

              That this arming of ukraine is for completely self interested reasons doesn’t mean it also has the side effect of helping a country fight tyranny. A good thing done for bad reasons can still be a good thing.

              • lad@programming.dev
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                11 months ago

                Also, if the western countries will get paid for the help afterwards, that’d be an almost free win

          • Aria
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            11 months ago

            You’re trying to say by implication that the ship has sailed on Bush and Obama, but they’re still alive. The USA Olympics team is still around. Even if you should’ve banned them in 1890 doesn’t mean you still can’t. They haven’t apologised, paid reparations, or ceased any of their human rights violating projects.

        • PerCarita@discuss.tchncs.de
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          11 months ago

          Why are we letting China get away with it? Why are we letting Saudi Arabia get away with it? The IOC is a toaster and it’s like you’re asking it to make you a whole roast dinner. It can’t even make toast properly…

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            11 months ago

            I’m not asking for anything, I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy in calling for punishing Russia for war crimes when in every respect the US and her vassals have committed and are committing orders of magnitude more violence in the last couple decades

            • PerCarita@discuss.tchncs.de
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              11 months ago

              *his. Come on, the US is not a motherland, it’s a fatherland.

              This is spiraling into whataboutism and I’m disengaging. Have a nice day!

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            11 months ago

            You realise by targetting an official enemy state of the most powerful of the lot, we’re essentially rewarding them? And making them more powerful on the world stage? So a fixation on CN and RU is inherently going to become counter-productive to goals of stability and human development etc.

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        11 months ago

        “Just because we let the world’s most prolific serial killer get away with it doesnt mean he shouldnt be allowed to keep murdering if he pinky swears his victims really deserve it this time.”

        We can’t go back in time and fix it but we’ve got to start somewhere.

        We are in total agreement here, and we can start by seizing the levers of power, purging the government of capitalists, withdrawing all troops from everywhere and using them for reforestation work, dismantling the IMF, paying reparations to every country we’ve victimized, and putting every fossil fuel executive and lobbyist against the wall for their omnicidal crimes against all terrestrial life.

      • space_comrade [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        11 months ago

        but we’ve got to start somewhere.

        Somehow we always seem to be starting with US geopolitical enemies, never the US itself, despite literal centuries of heinous crimes.

        Curious how that works.

  • Furbag@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    Good lord, the comments on that article. I guess I shouldn’t expect any better from RT, but man it does really make me sad that so many people are happy living in a fantasy world where Ukrainians are the bad guys in this conflict.

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      If you think that’s bad you really don’t want to look at what’s goin on in Palestine.

          • PerCarita@discuss.tchncs.de
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            11 months ago

            I think this is a bad faith reading of the other comment. Perhaps Warrior of Ukraine meant that they’re European, and as such is more emotionally and intellectually invested in the war in Ukraine than in the ongoing conflict of non-Europeans (which you rightly identified as “people too”, of course) in Palestine/Israel.

            • Nalivai@discuss.tchncs.de
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              11 months ago

              And I think I absolutely correctly read “Who cares about those people, they’re not Europeans”, and the quotes about the word conflict were just a cherry on top. The correct answer to whatabout is not “we should only care about my issue because I am important and you are less than that”.

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                11 months ago

                I didn’t see that intention. Perhaps u/JackBruh@lemm.ee would come back and clarify his intent. Otherwise, I largely agree with you. Whataboutism makes it as if when you care about one thing, you have to care about every thing, but no one person can fix every thing. It makes cynics of us all

        • astral_avocado@programming.dev
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          11 months ago

          Russia has declared war against Europe and will not stop until the last European is dead.

          Wow this is news to me when did this happen

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            11 months ago

            Plans have been discovered that Russia intended to invade other countries including Moldova and the other surrounding eastern European countries once they were done with Ukraine. Putin had no plans to stop his conquest, he wants to rebuild the Soviet Union.

        • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
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          11 months ago

          That is going to require them to train their military or something. So I’m guessing it might be easier for them to just wait a couple of thousand years until all of Europe is underwater as it will be faster.

      • Furbag@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Pretty sure invading another country for their natural resources doesn’t make you the good guys, no matter what excuse your country invents to justify their actions.

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    11 months ago

    Forget neutral flags, they should be banned. Heck, Russia should be banned for doping, regardless of the war.

    • Trudge [Comrade]
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      11 months ago

      No serious athlete will want mickey mouse medals if the real competition isn’t there.

    • pancakes@sh.itjust.works
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      I mean, having Ukraine boycott the Olympics isn’t a great look for the Olympics.

  • EmotionalSupportLancet [undecided]@hexbear.net
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    11 months ago

    The original Olympic truce required everyone to lay down their arms. It would go against the spirit to selectively enforce this. Not that the IOC actually cares about the legacy of the games, they tried to remove wrestling at one point.

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    11 months ago

    Now we’re up to $900 per US household for this Ukraine stuff. Let’s throw a few more bucks at it to buy flags. Great use of taxpayer dollars. Sure, Jan.

    • PerCarita@discuss.tchncs.de
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      11 months ago

      Most of which are armament that the US government already had in its arsenal. You’ve spent the money and now those missiles are actually in use instead of being hold in storage. I’m actually more interested in that 900 USD amount, where did you read or hear that exact number?

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        11 months ago
        1. Missiles being used to kill people in an endless stalemate is actually worse than them sitting in a box
        2. The people sending those missiles to Ukraine are going to buy more to replace them
        3. They’re also going to charge Ukraine for the missiles and insist the country sell off state assets for pennies on the dollar to make payments
      • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        11 months ago

        I don’t know how this brain genius talking point got so popular.

        So things don’t cost money when you already spent money on them? …You don’t think those stocks are going to be replenished having been depleted?

        • PerCarita@discuss.tchncs.de
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          11 months ago

          Because it has a point, albeit not perfect. Wouldn’t you rather the US not have a ridiculously big military budget and can divert spending to, say, education and healthcare?

          Sure, it’s great that the US arsenal can obliterate any country in the world should the political powers will it, but this is not the best version of the world, honestly. As you said, it’s your money. Are you okay with it?

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            11 months ago

            Sure, it’s great that the US arsenal can obliterate any country in the world should the political powers will it

            visible-disgust

            Wouldn’t you rather the US not have a ridiculously big military budget and can divert spending to, say, education and healthcare?

            Yes? But this seems like a non sequitur.

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        11 months ago

        And now we have to replenish those arsenals… they absolutely will be replenished.

        Like, if you give all the food in your cupboard to someone, no one would consider that “free”. You have to buy more food!

        This argument seems so foolish I can hardly believe anyone actually thinks this way.

        • PerCarita@discuss.tchncs.de
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          11 months ago

          I’d rather the companies in my country stop selling those armaments to the US, actually. Maybe this is a good time to review your military budget and ask your government why you have it in the first place?

          • PosadistInevitablity [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            11 months ago

            The same imperial government that lied to its people and provoked a land war in Europe?

            The same one you’re legitimizing in fueling that conflict by implying it’s free?

            Yeah let me call up my boy Biden and tell him no more bombs while you point and laugh at me from behind

    • couragethebravedog@lemmy.ml
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      11 months ago

      This conflict has the potential to cause real change in Russia. We’re talking about potentially getting rid of Putin’s regime and it’s being done without sending any of our troops to die. The help Ukraine is getting isn’t charity, look at the bigger picture.

    • Tired and bored@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      This Ukraine stuff is a war where 100.000 war crimes were reported, tens of thousands of civilians were killed raped and tortured, where hundreds of thousands of people lost their house.

      I wouldn’t say it’s $900 per household because

      1. It’s from the defense federal budget, that you would’ve spent anyways
      2. The aid packages, expressed in dollars, are the sum of the value of the equipment sent to Ukraine, in vast majority which US already had
      3. The defence budget is there to be able to stand against the strongest adversaries: China and Russia. USA basically annihilated one of their enemies’ army without a single drop of blood.
            • Tired and bored@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              Why do you think the Ukrainians are Nazi? You’re clearly failing to understand that having a Nazi problem (like any country) does not imply the government is Nazi. You have seen images of men with their tattooed arms right? How does it mean that the government is Nazi? It’s Kremlin’s propaganda to discredit Ukrainians. Go see the polls and see how many far-right parties got (2%).

              I linked a Wikipedia page, so there’s no need to “believe” as the war crimes are documented.

              Now look at who’s committing genocide, deportations and tortures.

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          11 months ago

          You haven’t heard of hyperbole, clearly. But it’s not far from the truth. Russia commits war crimes every day. It’s all their military is good for. They can’t fight a real force, so they blow up and murder civilians instead. To claim otherwise is misinformed at best, actively dishonest at worst.

  • Gsus4@feddit.nl
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    11 months ago

    Go Ukraine, but it’s official, this worldnews community has become ragebait, like the original one :/

    • steltek@lemm.ee
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      11 months ago

      It’s particularly upsetting because lemmy.ml is a major instance. IMO, moderation in this c/ is infrequent and underwhelming. I don’t mean to hang the mods out to dry; it would take a big team to wade through this effluent and tame the trolls. The hostile “Here comes the Reddit refugees” and “OMG Tankie brigade” shit is just the easy stuff. A rule on lazy whataboutism would help the signal/noise ratio as well. This post is from RT, about Ukraine/Russia/Belarus but the biggest thread in here is rehashing the Iraq occupation. Can we just discuss the original topic? Is that so hard?

      • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        11 months ago

        “My post is about black crime, stop mentioning other things like white crime. Yes, I only post about black crime, are you trying to say black people never commit crime? That they should be allowed to commit crime? Thought so.”

        Sometimes bringing up context is important for discussing issues that some people would like to keep in a vacuum. The US competing at those same Olympic games under no penalty would be fucked up and makes it obvious that if Belarus was penalized here, it would be due to western politicking and nothing else (Russia already has the doping issue, so idk about that one)

        • steltek@lemm.ee
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          11 months ago

          No, you’re not helping. At all. It’s flamebait that can only derail the topic and turn into a circle jerk or verbal fistfight.

          Here’s an example that may help: Why is China allowed to participate in the Olympics despite their genocides and brutal crackdowns? Why the double standard?

            • Apollo@sh.itjust.works
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              11 months ago

              I’m sure china is rounding up its citizens and putting them into reeducation camps based on their ethnicity and religious beliefs for reasons other than ethnic cleansing.

              Being left wing doesn’t mean you absolutely must support china, especially since a lot of chinese policies are decidedly right wing and almost overwhelmingly authoritarian.

              Like nost other “communist” parties in power before them, the CCP is populated mostly by self interested bourgeois that coopted the revolution and pursued a path of oppression against its own people.

              Authoritarians gonna authoritate, who’d have guessed.

            • Emanuel@lemmy.eco.br
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              11 months ago

              https://xinjiangahr.carrd.co/

              Saved. Thanks for the comprehensive resource. Now, if only everyone was eager to read before slandering other countries online… Not that China is a perfect utopia, but simply gobbling whatever information comes to the public by media that have an interest in defending “the West” is the quickest path to have your consent manufactured.

      • Sasuke [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        11 months ago

        This post is from RT, about Ukraine/Russia/Belarus but the biggest thread in here is rehashing the Iraq occupation.

        the ‘punishment’ of russia is night and day to what we saw happen to the US and its western allies after the invasion of iraq. you can go and cry about ‘whataboutism’ as much as you’d like, but those of us who live in a world not shrouded by a willful amnesia of a past historical events can see the gross display of hypocrisy for what it is—namely a confirmation by the western world that some victims (of war) are worth more than others

      • Buelldozer@lemmy.today
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        11 months ago

        Can we just discuss the original topic? Is that so hard?

        When your entire schtick is anti-westernism then yeah it is that hard. I really don’t mind the comrades at lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml, they generate some thought provoking content at times. However their blind, predictable, and endlessly repeated talking points are tiresome in the same way that an invasion of Fox News viewers would be.

        • o_d [he/him]
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          11 months ago

          Another centerist attempting to equivicate the left who wants civil rights for all to the right who want to melt anyone the left advocates civil rights for. Yes, your rainbow capitalism will certainly save this planet.

      • Dee@lemmings.world
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        11 months ago

        This post is from RT, about Ukraine/Russia/Belarus but the biggest thread in here is rehashing the Iraq occupation. Can we just discuss the original topic? Is that so hard?

        This is why so many instances defederate from hexbear, they do this in every comment section. Just turn it into whataboutism against the US, and add nothing to the topic that’s actually being discussed by the article. They’re basically lemmygrad but brigade comment sections more often.

        • ArxCyberwolf@lemmy.ca
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          11 months ago

          Brigading is their entire purpose for existence on this site, they actively plot to harass and invade other instances to deny people a platform and talk about where to spread their “forces” next. They were taking bets on where they’ll be defederated next. They were never on this platform to participate in good faith.

        • zephyreks@programming.dev
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          11 months ago

          Instances defederate from hexbear because of emoji spam more than anything else.

          Defederation because of political views is, frankly, dangerous for democracy.

          • Dee@lemmings.world
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            11 months ago

            This isn’t about their political views in particular, this is about them brigading comment sections and derailing from the original topic and shouting down anybody who disagrees.

            Defederation because of political views is, frankly, dangerous for democracy.

            What? This is such a ridiculous claim I’m not even sure where to start. Federation does not equal democracy, and defederation from a shitty spammy instance has zero impact on democracy.

            • zephyreks@programming.dev
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              11 months ago

              Democracy is built on discourse of opposing views. If we just censor all opposing views, then what the fuck is even the point?

                • zephyreks@programming.dev
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                  11 months ago

                  Yet, people with these political views do exist in our society. We need to find a way to integrate them into society, not isolate them.

              • steltek@lemm.ee
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                11 months ago

                There’s about as much discourse here as rival football hooligans having it out in the streets. A lot of violence but it doesn’t really change the score. What’s the point of talking when no one’s listening?

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                11 months ago

                Defederation is not censorship. All it means is that nobody on that instance wants to hear your bullshit, and are showing you the door. You’re able to make an account on another federated instance if you wanted to hear those vitriolic, harmful people.

          • steltek@lemm.ee
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            11 months ago

            Re: “dangerous for democracy”. That’s a little hyperbolic, don’t ya think?

            I don’t support defederation. I think the calls for defederation strictly arise from political clashes that boil out of control and people that don’t remember the Internet-that-was, before Reddit. “Free speech absolutist” wasn’t a thing because no one pictured their little forum as mattering that much. Forum moderation wasn’t about enforcing a specific world view or preserving an echo chamber, it was about preserving civil discourse. And since I’m typing this out I might as well add that I think if I was to dust off an early 90’s or 2000’s mod hat, I’d do the following:

            • Referring to other commenters as reddit refugee/hexbear/liberal/grad/imperialist/shill/anti-westerner 's is a 3 day ban
            • Bringing up the Iraq War, Tienanmen Sq, etc is a 3 day ban. Not some conspiracy to bury the truth. It’s because everyone’s friggin’ heard it already and we definitely don’t need more of it.
            • Lazy whataboutism is a 1 day ban. This is vaguely defined for a purposeful chilling effect.
            • War Is Bad. When not the topic of the article, fantasizing about a US-Ruso conflict/popular uprising/Taiwan invasion/WW3 is a 1 day ban.

            What do people want this place to be? A place where all sides can meet (if they strictly behave)? An echo chamber? A raging angry gladiator pit? Like I said above, as a major Lemmy instance, this place should be downright boring and the extremists can retreat to other instances better suited to their anger.

      • Gsus4@feddit.nl
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        11 months ago

        It’s not this, it’s this whole subreddit. Might as well call it world_politics_gore_debate_bait.

        Edit: to the stink bugs trying to dunk on me for doing exactly what I wanted to do when referring to this place looking like the worldnews subreddit, look up “metaphor” in a dictionary and stfu

        • Dee@lemmings.world
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          11 months ago

          subreddit

          🫤

          Edit: You ever see somebody say something dumb and then they unabashedly double down? Yeah.

          • Gsus4@feddit.nl
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            11 months ago

            Look up “metaphor” in a dictionary and stop doubling down on your mistaken shallow interpretation of what you just read.

            • Dee@lemmings.world
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              11 months ago

              Trying to say calling a Lemmy community a subreddit is a metaphor lmao

              Also, you came back to the comments without getting a notification to reply to the edit? Dude, go outside lol

              • Gsus4@feddit.nl
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                11 months ago

                Here, I’ll do it for you:

                https://www.grammarly.com/blog/metaphor/

                Work today was a nightmare!

                You: no, nightmares are not real life, you’re wrong.

                You are my shining star.

                You: There are no stars on Earth, you’re a moron and I’m dumping you.

                Look at this pigsty!

                You: This subreddit is not a pigsty, you are an illiterate moron

                That athlete is a machine.

                You: go learn what a machine is, you’d never make it as an engineer, because I’m in your head and know you didn’t intentionally mean to use a metaphor, because I’m full of myself and you’re a dumb anon.

                The difference between you and me in this respect is that I have no shame in apologizing when wrong, while you not so much. Why am I losing time with this? Because people like me have an interest in having people like you be a little less self-righteous.

                • Dee@lemmings.world
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                  11 months ago

                  The rare quadruple down on the dumb. Calling a lemmy community a subreddit is not a metaphor, it’s objectively wrong. No matter how many non-applicable examples you provide. How are you this dense? (That’s rhetorical btw)

                  Because people like me have an interest in having people like you be a little less self-righteous.

                  lmfao the projection of writing this at the end of the most self righteous comment I’ve read on lemmy yet is delicious.