They make a valid point about the DRA and the reactionary takeover of religious institutions in the post USSR states. State atheism encouraged reactionaries to weaponize religion to radicalize anti-socialists. What according to you should be done to avoid this in modern socialist states?
State atheism encouraged reactionaries to weaponize religion to radicalize anti-socialists
Huge problem with that is that every fucking thing done against even the blatant opulence, power and corruption of priesthood is ALWAYS seen as attack on religion and encourage reactionaries to weaponize religion to radicalize anti-socialists. Always, without any single exception.
You are correct, but its important to understand that this stuff isn’t an absolute, there are certain tolerances that exist. Not every offended party will react the same, and sure the extremists will never change but the average religious person is still human, and will be motivated firstly by their material conditions, not whatever the clergy or imam says.
And in Afghanistan for example the tolerance for state atheism simply was not there. The people were not educated enough and saw the government’s policy as unacceptable. The soviet union however used a less heavy hand when dealing with their religious populations, someone else in the thread mentioned Stalin’s speech on Sharia as an example.
Agree mostly. So i must add we are mostly talking about the conditions we live in, that is, christianity tradition and domination. Note that i don’t mind (currently) for example ba’athists who are often religious, because there the contradictions look otherwise, social manifestation of religion is antiimperialist there and proimperialist here. But note the question of current Afghanistan. Nobody here said Taliban is cool, but we were still rooting for its victory against USA because it was a bigger contradiction. Now that this is mostly resolved, the lesser contradictions started to resurface in discussion.
And after Afghanistan we have KSA which is old school religious monarchy, then we have Iran when the issues of religious oppression are certainly legit despite being hijacked by libs, and so on and on.
Again, principles vs tactics, just as Lenin and Stalin did.
Ultimately, religious “marxists” and religious socialists are people we should not have any problem striking at the common enemy with, but we should be very wary that marching with them would not lead us in bog.
Completely defund any sort of privilege nor protection to any cult, aka, religion. A church wants to open? Ask the Vatican. A Mosque? A Buddhist temple? The same. A church, mosque, kingdom hall, temple, whatever can’t be sustained? It’s going to be a nice library.
Open forums where religion can be questioned, disputed all the misdeads it made and the harm and lies it does as of now, protecting skeptics, critics and open platform the victims of religion to the public, sponsored, making it the most possible to not be victims of violent assaults, which, every. single. religion. is. guilty. of.
Then, on the other hand, absolutely prohibit religious influence in the state nor statal organisms, such as the elimination of religious propaganda in school, and also to ban minors to be able to enter temples and any other form of indoctrination since… Let’s be frank, have you ever read religious texts? If they weren’t considered religious, no minor would be near them and only in the adults section.
And then, a constant education on how reality works, which is Dialectical and Material, not magical, not spiritual, not theistic, not idealistic, not anything that religion tried to explain about based on their own collective ignorance of the time while drooling over owning absolute control over people…
This is super simple, it is not polished at all, etc, but the general direction of this is enough.
It would be nice, if daring, to prohibit any ideology that promotes hatred towards women, LGBTA+, protecting all the traditions at all cost, specially the harmful ones, demand killings of animals, pseudoscience (such as creationism, faith healing, etc), classism, etc, regardless of any allegations of deities or not, and see how many religions survive the test… But people her would cry about how some of those ideologies must be protected at all cost, and most of you, will not see the alarms regarding it.
I haven’t seen anyone claim that we need to “protect religion at all costs”, and everything you’ve said is fairly reasonable. Nobody here will oppose secularizing the state, which is much of what the first half of your suggestion is. I think where they take issue is the idea that deeply religious people need to be confronted with these ideas in such an immediate manner.
To exclude them or antagonize them is only going to entrench them in their religious views, or even worse radicalize them into anti-coms. Wouldn’t it be more sound to simply secularize the state and allow people to be educated in socialist principles? I agree wholeheartedly that religious institutions deserve no funding or support from the state, but to actively antagonize religion is only asking for religion to be used as ammunition against your socialist project.
And still was downvoted, even if not by you. Even his reasonable position is attacked HERE of all places in ML SPACE.
What ML are those, who rally do defend nor religious people, but RELIGIONS, which is happening here. As you see it is not him who can’t make this distinction. What ML’s are those that read the wiki article about historicity of Jesus posted elswhere here and upvote that fallacious nonsense? It leads me to conclusion they are the same when reading marxist theory, like basically everything about philosophy where religion is harshly denied.
Although I haven’t seen anyone outright defending religious institutions, I can only imagine that the downvotes are from those that are probably religious themselves and take offense to being called reactionary and such. I don’t doubt one minute that religious institutions are dangerous if allowed to exist in the form they do today, and I am certain that most people here believe so too. It can be a difficult thing to confront especially for those who have been raised religious or live in highly religious communities to be told that the faith they believe in is inherently evil. And victim of religion here doesn’t hold any punches so its no surprise that they’ve managed to strike some nerves, lol.
downvotes are from those that are probably religious themselves and take offense to being called reactionary and such.
You are probably right, but this makes my argument even stronger, they even downvoted “papacy is reactionary”. Marxism is explicitly antireligious in principles, even if that can be taken aside in tactics for a long time.
Which leads us to yet another common problem which is recurring in case of many things, not only religion. Confusing matters of principle with matters of tactics. Hell, menshevism started in exact same manner even if not the same matter.
They, unfortunately, are reactionary in this question, even if that contradiction is currently lesser than others. In this thread, that question is stated as primary and here we are.
And victim of religion here doesn’t hold any punches so its no surprise that they’ve managed to strike some nerves, lol.
Yeah lol he doesn’t, for him this issue is more important than for others. I don’t see why we must pull our punches, other comrades certainly don’t when it comes to other issues such as feminism, trans rights etc.
Again i would invoke Lenin who never mistaken principles and philosophy from tactics and he was absolutely harsh on religion while courting religious sects and muslims oppressed by mainstream orthodoxy.
It’s like people reading about biological evolution and think “hummm this surely doesn’t applies to humans, because the Pope says that we are special hum hum hummmmm”
Not sure about english, because i read Lenin in polish, but the seer disdain and pretty wide usage for the word “klechostwo” says it all.
Funniest of all, this exact position of yours from few posts above is pretty close to that which is espoused by CPC. There is even example what happens there when a religion strays from the lines - Falun Gong. And no one here criticizes what CPC did to them.
Yet in the white world we have cults in which FG completely pales in comparison to, like all major christian denominations. And relations of those to socialist states and communist parties are exactly the same as FG to PRC and CPC, but when socialist states did to them 1/50 of the oppression CPC did to FG, it’s suddenly “too much” and it’s widely criticized.
How nice to see that the ages old difference between “dangerous sect” and “good religion” which is just the sheer size of it and amount of power it gathered, is raising its head here, unchanged.
the power structures that support the Amish, the LDS, the FLDS, the Family, and Jehovah’s Witnesses need to be dismantled piece by piece in Amerika. sex abuse, apocalyptic cults skating by on the principle of “freedom of religion” and earning millions upon millions of dollars… they need to be destroyed. same with Osteen and MegachurchismTM.
idk about the cults in Poland and eastern europe, I’m sure they’re disturbed as hell too. just use any opportunity I can to shit on these specific Amerikan cults.
We basically don’t have many cults in Poland and their are jumping the fringes and present themselves as innocent as possible (which every religion always does when facing stronger opposition, only growing teeth and claws as it gain it) because religious landscape is dominated by the single huge church that goes hand to hand with capitalist state in eliminating all the real opposition for either. It’s naturally bit more complicated in multiethnic and multireligious countries like Russia but even there they went right back to the altar throne alliance really fast after capitalism was restored.
Problem is that every single Christian sect has the same Bible as those like the JW have, then going on the “debate” of which cults are cults? And then majoritary religions will go and protect those obvious dangerous cults to maintain their privileges under “freedom of religion.”…
Only place I’m seeing JWs are starting to get their legality taken off, is in Norway, while in China they were never legal.
I don’t disagree with you, Christianity, explicitly fascistic Christian belief, maintains an iron grip on many nations and its power structures need to be systematically dismantled. I do also believe that it is a pragmatic idea to pinpoint the most powerful and detrimental sects of Christianity and fight against their growth (whatever that actually looks like from a praxis standpoint). Religions with sects and that went through schisms are entrenched into the earth like no other octopus’s tentacles, and there are a lot of tentacles with varying degrees of power and of negative consequence. I am not saying the ideological quirks and silly Christian infighting matter all that much, but the varying degrees of power these sects wield does. Am I making sense?
While all religion is dumb and bullshit, I think it can be helpful to look at religions based on how much they tolerate people being members of the religion while not actually giving too many shits about the religion. A deus vult catholic and a mormon are going going to be at about the same level of batshit detachment from reality, but it’s been my experience that you’ll meet a lot more self professed catholics who don’t bother actually doing the bare minimum their religion expects them to than you would mormons.
Yep, completely.
It’s like “REVOLUTION! WE WILL NOT RESPOND TO OUR OWN CRUELTY! BLOOD! DEATH TO ALL BUT US!!!.. Nonononononono… No, come on, you can’t just treat the megabillonaires that rule religions, come on, that’s too much, they are the main collaborators with everything that is against us and many more, but please, dude, it’s reactionary to deal with them like they dealed with us”.
Like, they can’t even fucking grasp how religions even HAVE CAPITALS. PHYSICAL, STATAL, POLITIFAL CAPITALS, and still not see it.
I would never think i would see “papacy is reactionary” downvoted here but alas. You seem to have developed a fan or two who are downvoting your comments few minutes after you write it. Truly dialectical XD
The problem is that even the first half of their comment would be vehemently opposed by the majority of the population where I’m from (and likely many other places too). Any popular conversations about secularizing the state always turn into shit slinging contests and the shit is primarily from the anti-secular side. My own family members are quite reactionary and mald at my most lukewarm suggestions of removing the article that says that Islam is the religion of the country. The article in English and Arabic. That article fails to give rights to the other religious groups in the country (which only some are mentioned in the constitution) and doesn’t even acknowledge the various religions that are unrecognized and lack of belief as well.
This is just the legal side, things on the ground are even more bleak.
Not directly, read between lines, and you will see how eager people here is to protect this reactionary and victims factory as much as they can.
Regarding the rest of what you said, two things:
Religious people are the most entitled collective everywhere they are stablished as some sort of majority and they all have victim/persecution complex even when they are the top privileged group, and if they are equilized with the rest, they will literally believe they are persecuted like the worst kind of bullies that they already are. So a lot of emotional gymnastics have to be made, and still, religious will get anti-com, since their ideologies are also already anti-com. Remember, the ideology is inherently theocracism.
And second: would not be a general reaction from any non-com to become rabid anti-com whenever socialism rises already? Doesn’t it happen already?
So, how to handle it?
And another question, why the special pleading?
They make a valid point about the DRA and the reactionary takeover of religious institutions in the post USSR states. State atheism encouraged reactionaries to weaponize religion to radicalize anti-socialists. What according to you should be done to avoid this in modern socialist states?
Huge problem with that is that every fucking thing done against even the blatant opulence, power and corruption of priesthood is ALWAYS seen as attack on religion and encourage reactionaries to weaponize religion to radicalize anti-socialists. Always, without any single exception.
You are correct, but its important to understand that this stuff isn’t an absolute, there are certain tolerances that exist. Not every offended party will react the same, and sure the extremists will never change but the average religious person is still human, and will be motivated firstly by their material conditions, not whatever the clergy or imam says.
And in Afghanistan for example the tolerance for state atheism simply was not there. The people were not educated enough and saw the government’s policy as unacceptable. The soviet union however used a less heavy hand when dealing with their religious populations, someone else in the thread mentioned Stalin’s speech on Sharia as an example.
Agree mostly. So i must add we are mostly talking about the conditions we live in, that is, christianity tradition and domination. Note that i don’t mind (currently) for example ba’athists who are often religious, because there the contradictions look otherwise, social manifestation of religion is antiimperialist there and proimperialist here. But note the question of current Afghanistan. Nobody here said Taliban is cool, but we were still rooting for its victory against USA because it was a bigger contradiction. Now that this is mostly resolved, the lesser contradictions started to resurface in discussion.
And after Afghanistan we have KSA which is old school religious monarchy, then we have Iran when the issues of religious oppression are certainly legit despite being hijacked by libs, and so on and on.
Again, principles vs tactics, just as Lenin and Stalin did.
Ultimately, religious “marxists” and religious socialists are people we should not have any problem striking at the common enemy with, but we should be very wary that marching with them would not lead us in bog.
Completely defund any sort of privilege nor protection to any cult, aka, religion. A church wants to open? Ask the Vatican. A Mosque? A Buddhist temple? The same. A church, mosque, kingdom hall, temple, whatever can’t be sustained? It’s going to be a nice library.
Open forums where religion can be questioned, disputed all the misdeads it made and the harm and lies it does as of now, protecting skeptics, critics and open platform the victims of religion to the public, sponsored, making it the most possible to not be victims of violent assaults, which, every. single. religion. is. guilty. of.
Then, on the other hand, absolutely prohibit religious influence in the state nor statal organisms, such as the elimination of religious propaganda in school, and also to ban minors to be able to enter temples and any other form of indoctrination since… Let’s be frank, have you ever read religious texts? If they weren’t considered religious, no minor would be near them and only in the adults section.
And then, a constant education on how reality works, which is Dialectical and Material, not magical, not spiritual, not theistic, not idealistic, not anything that religion tried to explain about based on their own collective ignorance of the time while drooling over owning absolute control over people…
This is super simple, it is not polished at all, etc, but the general direction of this is enough.
It would be nice, if daring, to prohibit any ideology that promotes hatred towards women, LGBTA+, protecting all the traditions at all cost, specially the harmful ones, demand killings of animals, pseudoscience (such as creationism, faith healing, etc), classism, etc, regardless of any allegations of deities or not, and see how many religions survive the test… But people her would cry about how some of those ideologies must be protected at all cost, and most of you, will not see the alarms regarding it.
I haven’t seen anyone claim that we need to “protect religion at all costs”, and everything you’ve said is fairly reasonable. Nobody here will oppose secularizing the state, which is much of what the first half of your suggestion is. I think where they take issue is the idea that deeply religious people need to be confronted with these ideas in such an immediate manner.
To exclude them or antagonize them is only going to entrench them in their religious views, or even worse radicalize them into anti-coms. Wouldn’t it be more sound to simply secularize the state and allow people to be educated in socialist principles? I agree wholeheartedly that religious institutions deserve no funding or support from the state, but to actively antagonize religion is only asking for religion to be used as ammunition against your socialist project.
And still was downvoted, even if not by you. Even his reasonable position is attacked HERE of all places in ML SPACE.
What ML are those, who rally do defend nor religious people, but RELIGIONS, which is happening here. As you see it is not him who can’t make this distinction. What ML’s are those that read the wiki article about historicity of Jesus posted elswhere here and upvote that fallacious nonsense? It leads me to conclusion they are the same when reading marxist theory, like basically everything about philosophy where religion is harshly denied.
Although I haven’t seen anyone outright defending religious institutions, I can only imagine that the downvotes are from those that are probably religious themselves and take offense to being called reactionary and such. I don’t doubt one minute that religious institutions are dangerous if allowed to exist in the form they do today, and I am certain that most people here believe so too. It can be a difficult thing to confront especially for those who have been raised religious or live in highly religious communities to be told that the faith they believe in is inherently evil. And victim of religion here doesn’t hold any punches so its no surprise that they’ve managed to strike some nerves, lol.
You are probably right, but this makes my argument even stronger, they even downvoted “papacy is reactionary”. Marxism is explicitly antireligious in principles, even if that can be taken aside in tactics for a long time.
Which leads us to yet another common problem which is recurring in case of many things, not only religion. Confusing matters of principle with matters of tactics. Hell, menshevism started in exact same manner even if not the same matter.
They, unfortunately, are reactionary in this question, even if that contradiction is currently lesser than others. In this thread, that question is stated as primary and here we are.
Yeah lol he doesn’t, for him this issue is more important than for others. I don’t see why we must pull our punches, other comrades certainly don’t when it comes to other issues such as feminism, trans rights etc.
Again i would invoke Lenin who never mistaken principles and philosophy from tactics and he was absolutely harsh on religion while courting religious sects and muslims oppressed by mainstream orthodoxy.
It’s like people reading about biological evolution and think “hummm this surely doesn’t applies to humans, because the Pope says that we are special hum hum hummmmm”
Not sure about english, because i read Lenin in polish, but the seer disdain and pretty wide usage for the word “klechostwo” says it all.
Funniest of all, this exact position of yours from few posts above is pretty close to that which is espoused by CPC. There is even example what happens there when a religion strays from the lines - Falun Gong. And no one here criticizes what CPC did to them.
Yet in the white world we have cults in which FG completely pales in comparison to, like all major christian denominations. And relations of those to socialist states and communist parties are exactly the same as FG to PRC and CPC, but when socialist states did to them 1/50 of the oppression CPC did to FG, it’s suddenly “too much” and it’s widely criticized.
How nice to see that the ages old difference between “dangerous sect” and “good religion” which is just the sheer size of it and amount of power it gathered, is raising its head here, unchanged.
Re: white cults like FG
the power structures that support the Amish, the LDS, the FLDS, the Family, and Jehovah’s Witnesses need to be dismantled piece by piece in Amerika. sex abuse, apocalyptic cults skating by on the principle of “freedom of religion” and earning millions upon millions of dollars… they need to be destroyed. same with Osteen and MegachurchismTM.
idk about the cults in Poland and eastern europe, I’m sure they’re disturbed as hell too. just use any opportunity I can to shit on these specific Amerikan cults.
We basically don’t have many cults in Poland and their are jumping the fringes and present themselves as innocent as possible (which every religion always does when facing stronger opposition, only growing teeth and claws as it gain it) because religious landscape is dominated by the single huge church that goes hand to hand with capitalist state in eliminating all the real opposition for either. It’s naturally bit more complicated in multiethnic and multireligious countries like Russia but even there they went right back to the altar throne alliance really fast after capitalism was restored.
Oh, so you have a big monolithic cult, there.
Problem is that every single Christian sect has the same Bible as those like the JW have, then going on the “debate” of which cults are cults? And then majoritary religions will go and protect those obvious dangerous cults to maintain their privileges under “freedom of religion.”… Only place I’m seeing JWs are starting to get their legality taken off, is in Norway, while in China they were never legal.
I’m an ExJW, btw
I don’t disagree with you, Christianity, explicitly fascistic Christian belief, maintains an iron grip on many nations and its power structures need to be systematically dismantled. I do also believe that it is a pragmatic idea to pinpoint the most powerful and detrimental sects of Christianity and fight against their growth (whatever that actually looks like from a praxis standpoint). Religions with sects and that went through schisms are entrenched into the earth like no other octopus’s tentacles, and there are a lot of tentacles with varying degrees of power and of negative consequence. I am not saying the ideological quirks and silly Christian infighting matter all that much, but the varying degrees of power these sects wield does. Am I making sense?
While all religion is dumb and bullshit, I think it can be helpful to look at religions based on how much they tolerate people being members of the religion while not actually giving too many shits about the religion. A deus vult catholic and a mormon are going going to be at about the same level of batshit detachment from reality, but it’s been my experience that you’ll meet a lot more self professed catholics who don’t bother actually doing the bare minimum their religion expects them to than you would mormons.
Yep, completely. It’s like “REVOLUTION! WE WILL NOT RESPOND TO OUR OWN CRUELTY! BLOOD! DEATH TO ALL BUT US!!!.. Nonononononono… No, come on, you can’t just treat the megabillonaires that rule religions, come on, that’s too much, they are the main collaborators with everything that is against us and many more, but please, dude, it’s reactionary to deal with them like they dealed with us”.
Like, they can’t even fucking grasp how religions even HAVE CAPITALS. PHYSICAL, STATAL, POLITIFAL CAPITALS, and still not see it.
I would never think i would see “papacy is reactionary” downvoted here but alas. You seem to have developed a fan or two who are downvoting your comments few minutes after you write it. Truly dialectical XD
Wanna try it? I am sure some will say that the current pope is based or some other Christofascist nonsense even here.
The problem is that even the first half of their comment would be vehemently opposed by the majority of the population where I’m from (and likely many other places too). Any popular conversations about secularizing the state always turn into shit slinging contests and the shit is primarily from the anti-secular side. My own family members are quite reactionary and mald at my most lukewarm suggestions of removing the article that says that Islam is the religion of the country. The article in English and Arabic. That article fails to give rights to the other religious groups in the country (which only some are mentioned in the constitution) and doesn’t even acknowledge the various religions that are unrecognized and lack of belief as well.
This is just the legal side, things on the ground are even more bleak.
Not directly, read between lines, and you will see how eager people here is to protect this reactionary and victims factory as much as they can.
Regarding the rest of what you said, two things: Religious people are the most entitled collective everywhere they are stablished as some sort of majority and they all have victim/persecution complex even when they are the top privileged group, and if they are equilized with the rest, they will literally believe they are persecuted like the worst kind of bullies that they already are. So a lot of emotional gymnastics have to be made, and still, religious will get anti-com, since their ideologies are also already anti-com. Remember, the ideology is inherently theocracism. And second: would not be a general reaction from any non-com to become rabid anti-com whenever socialism rises already? Doesn’t it happen already? So, how to handle it? And another question, why the special pleading?