cross-posted from: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/297928
As you have all noticed, this seems to be a point of contention here. This is a good thing, since it means someone will learn something.
Now we seem to be all over the place, with this general area of thought, provoking many questions. Whether or not PatSocs are socially conservative, what is position on social conservatism? Many of us are very young, both in age and ML experience, so an online discussion would be a great learning tool.
- Are socially conservative individuals allowed to be apart of the leftist movement?
- A. Are socially conservative individuals victims of bourgeois propaganda? -B. If socially conservative people are turned away by the left, where do they go? -C. How high of a position would a social conservative be allowed in a ML party? -D. How has or will MLs educate socially conservative folk? -E. &tc, &tc.
What exactly is Patriotism? -A. Does patriotism depend on culture? -B Is possible for a distinction between patriotism for a country and wanting to abolish the state? -C. Is patriotism corrupted in the Core? -D How have post imperialist countries with Communist experiments built patriotism? -E. &Tc &TC
Who even are the PatSocs? -A. If the label is too convuluted, should we make a distinction between Maupin and American exceptionalists? -B. Who of the leaders do we consider MLs? -C. Should patriotic socialist be distinct from socialism or is inherent in socialism? -D. How much do WE even know if PatSocs? -E. &Tc, &tc
We can look at the USSR and GDR for these questions. Remember the Hammer and Sickel came from somewhere.
Things to look out for about the US: -It is the imperialist power, AND a settler state. -Low levels of cultural development -The culture that is there is taken from marginalized groups. -Americas are the most propagandized people in the World. -It is huge and incredibly diverse
More questions about the US could follow: -Should the US be balkanized? If so how does patriotism be built in balkanized regions? -How does land back go about? Will indigenous countries emerge, and if so should we reconsider American MLs as different MLs for the Regions in North America. -If see different nations and regions in North America how does that affect culture? Is the question of how we view the land a prerequisite to discussing patriotism, is it contradictory to call yourself an American Patriot if you decide to divide up the land until regions?
There is so much potential for deep political for North American based Comrades, this is a rabbit hole I do want to delve into. I’ll cross post this to GZD but I want it mainly on Leftist Infighting.
Also to add, i havent read Sakais book, but i do know that the group that really popularized it, MIM (Maoist Internationalist Movement) were an extremely secretive Gang of 4 maoist third worldist group. They believed that USSR and Deng Xiaopings China were social imperialist, capitalist and revisionist, that the Cultural Revolution and the Gang of 4 were great, and that white americans are all exploiters and will never be proletarian (which is unmarxist bs as you already said). This group was very secretive and dissolved in 2008. There are a lot of conspiracy theories about them and J Sakai.
Its the best US history book, no wonder you haven’t read it, and are a patsoc.
All MLs are patriotic, proletarian patriots. Im european, and here all communist parties acknowledge this, from the spanish, greek, finnish, russian, moldovan, ukrainian, etc. Even CPUSA akcnowledges it, only maoist ultraleftists deny this. I havent read Sakais book so i wont comment on it, but isnt Sakai maoist? I wouldnt make my gospel a guy who is so “materialist” he thinks China is capitalist and imperialist.
Source? Most MLs adhere to proletarian internationalism, and the right of nations to self-determination, not “patriotism”.
I’m not in CPUSA, but iirc a few months back, luckily they dismissed a few patsocs. Its good to see them extricate themselves of opportunist notions of patriotism.
Not sure, I never got that inkling reading the book. He also wrote it a bit before MLM was synthesized, so I don’t think that applies. I remember reading an interview with him where he admires Mao, as we all do.
So did Parenti, western leftists having dogshit takes on China is nothing new, and is also no reason to dismiss their views on non-china topics.
Ok, you want sources, ill give em to you.
Article by General Secretary of CPUSA Joe Sims defending working class patriotism from 2014:
https://www.cpusa.org/article/some-thoughts-on-patriotism-the-national-question-and-the-leninist-tradition/
Article by the Spanish Communist Party (PCE) defending socialist patriotism from 2020 (in spanish):
https://www.mundoobrero.es/pl.php?id=10161
2 Articles from the Greek Communist Party (KKE) defending socialist patriotism from 2000 (in greek):
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=209459
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=329397
An article by the Italian Communist Party (PCI) (not the original since it dissolved, an ML splinter) defending socialist patriotism (in italian):
https://www.ilpartitocomunistaitaliano.it/quale-patria-per-il-ribelle-parte-prima/
All of these countries are imperialist, and one (the USA) is even settler colonialist. Does CPUSA support colonialism? No! It explictly supports land back, but proletarian patriotism isnt incompatible with that, in fact its fully compatible. Same with european countries, antiimperialism and proletarian patriotism go hand in hand.
I also find it funny that I said “most MLs”, and you cited a bunch of eurocommunist parties lol. You realize communists are a miniscule population in those areas, and most MLs in the world don’t live in euroamerikkka right?
First of all, the Greek and Italian parties i cited are not eurocommunist, they are as stalinist antirevisionist as you can be, especially the greek one. I cited european parties because the argument here tends to be that patriotism is only ok for antiimperialist countries, so i showed that even communist parties in the imperial core are patriotic and always have been. Are you disputing that too? Socialist patriotism is NEVER okay now? Because ALL AES states were and are extremely patriotic, including modern day ones like China, Cuba, DPRK, Vietnam and Laos. I thought that wasnt in dispute, which is why i focused on Europe, the imperial core.
You’ve just discovered the trash-fire of eurocommunism, congrats. A few imperial-core “communist parties” support patriotism, and are against land-back? Color me surprised!
I’ll read these later, but these eurocommunist stances aren’t surprising.
The two of these i’m most familiar with tho: joe sims is basically a democrat. He wrote an anti-stalin anticommunist article a few years back that was something I would’ve expected from a baby socdem.
The kke has some truly awful borderline anarchist stances on things. They consider russia imperialist for example.
You just keep repeating this while ignoring all our criticisms. European and US communist parties are not usually anything to look up to.
The KKE DOES NOT consider Russia imperialist, where did you get that from? (Edit: My bad, they do, i didnt know that) Also apparently when J Sakai has stupid opinions on China that doesnt discredit him, but when communist parties that disprove your revisionism do it then it does discredit them. Curious how it works.
The difference: we don’t have to listen to sakai or parenti or any number of western leftists when it comes to china, something they have no familiarity with.
Taking “expertise” from chauvinist eurocommunist parties when it comes to imperialism and settler-colonialism, is like listening to a 3rd grader giving a physics lecture.
I do want to add though, that despite our heavy disagreements and heated discussion tonight, that you are still my comrade and hope we can reach a friendly resolution to this debate soon. I also want to applaud your extreme professionalism today as a mod. I really thought you would ban me in a fit of rage or something today, but im very happy to have been proven wrong. Im proud Lemmygrad has professional mods like you who can be objective and separate their views from moderation. I look forward to have more amicable and friendly interactions and debates here on Lemmygrad with you in the future, despite our heavy disagreement tonight! I want to make clear that you are still my Comrade. I salute you Comrade Muad Dibber! O7
How is the KKE chauvinist? Just because they are patriotic? Who are they being chauvinist against? EU bureoucrats? Jens Stoltenberg?
Sakai have some good points, especially for the time when he wrote this book, but somehow sakaists never noticed it’s 2022 and end of history has ended and the situation is changing.
Also i am really bewildered how anyone who even heard about dialectical materialism can took the Sakai conclusion for granted.