They seem based but this topic itself is what is causing a divide between both based parties. It’s not an easy question, it’s the same as what is to be done in regards to Israel? And trust me this will come up with them at that time as well.
They make great points but the question of nuance is what is to be done in the case of historical injustice? America itself is a country of genocide, and it’s continuation not only justifies that genocide but inspires further genocide as it itself would stand as a testimate to the immovability of said injustice. The idea of too big to be humbled, of chauvinism itself lives within the legacy of America. The country America must cease to exist.
They combine the question of America and those currently living in America as 1 and the same issue of which they are not. Only one who has a shallow understanding of the logistics of relocating 340 million people would advocate doing so because they believe it to be right. And the other option is genocide and for those who advocate that I ask them to reevaluate which side of the ‘political isle’ they belong to, which class?
America must become a new country, with new norms, new rules, and a historically just culture without discrediting the current inhabitants nor the original inhabitants. We’re all here now and none of us (working class) are guilty. So the new nation must reflect the needs and culture of those who currently live here while making efforts to repopulate the nation with those who originally lived here. This culture of the newer inhabitants of course must be proletarian culture and the “American culture” must be purged for the sake of the world really.
Their response is well reasoned except that they’ve assumed the preservation of the USA as part of their solution. It’s incredibly likely that breaking the white supremacist and capitalist power base will come via a collapse and Balkanization/extreme decentralization of US power. The political landscape of North America after capitalism is fraught with uncertainty but they seem to have plotted a clear, fixed path through the unknown which just smacks of dogma.
if the only way to bring about a revolution is to immiserate millions of people by balkanizing their country then maybe said people would have a thing or 2 to say about your totally not bloodthirsty plan. u cant bring about a revolution while actively antagonizing the very people its supposed to help.
if the only way to bring about a revolution is to immiserate millions of people by balkanizing their country
Where did I say that was the ‘only way’?
your totally not bloodthirsty plan.
What’s my plan? Where did I say I have a fucking ‘plan’ for the US?
u cant bring about a revolution while actively antagonizing the very people its supposed to help.
First, yes you can, but that’s not what I’m advocating. Second, nobody needs to ‘actively antagonize them’, their govermment will do that itself. Third, US Citizens’ ignorance and complacency about their political system doesn’t just harm them, it harms or threatens to harm the lives and prosperity of every human being living in striking distance of their hegemony. A revolution in the US would help everyone, of which the US is a tiny minority. That’s who it’s supposed to help.
Balkanization of the US is not likely because we want it to be but because as this state loses its power there will likely be uprisings in certain portions liberating parts, not the whole immediately. And the part that’s still US will probably be overtly fascist. The land we are on belongs to the indigenous people and the defeat of the settler state doesn’t mean we all have to die, but that it will be up to them how their resources are used. The myth that indigenous people will genocide us comes from the settler psyche in that we’re worried our ancestors methods used against them will be returned in kind. This will not happen because they are fucking savages like the Europeans. Recall that Marx’s idea for future communism came from primitive communism and most indigenous tribes run/ran on collective ownership. They have have a whole lot better chance of achieving socialism here than any white communist movements here have ever had.
if there is a revolution and it ends in stalemate or if the us just falls apart thats one thing, what can you do right, but this is just not the sentiment im seeing from most people who talk about it they want it to happen they call for it they say it is necessary and good because the american nation does not exist or is invalid because of how it came to be. and yeah im not worried that oppressed people are going to genocide white people the number just dont work out and neither will any movement with such ideas at its center anyways which is what am actually worried about. i see such hatred and bloodthirst misdirected at random white working people with people calling most if not all white people animals or inhuman and most around here dont seems at all worried by it, a group which allows ideas like that to be so prevalent and even revel in them can not possible succeed in bringing about any positive change and idk about you but i wanna be alive the day this shithole is no longer capitalist.
so yeah im always gonna call out shitty sentiments like wanting any country to be balkanize or dehumanizing random working people who have done nothing because its bad and its shit and its just plain wrong.
The US is not a legitimate nation. It was founded on slavery and settler colonialism. If you’ve read Fanon you know that the most oppressed and dehumanized people, those with the least to lose are the most willing to carry out the work of revolution. This is why the Black Panthers focused on the lumpen proletariat. Indigenous people are closer to socialism now than any communist party is. They’ve got millions of people who understand that capitalism has taken their land and are the most likely to fight for it back. They also already have states recognized internationally with a communal culture that inspired Marx. Indigenous comrades understand the conditions of this country the most along with how to live in harmony with the people and land as they’ve done millennia. The reason comrades disparage USians in general is because most labor aristocrats and petty bourgeoise here are complacent and understand the the gains handed down to us by the imperialist bourgeoisie are selfishly not worth giving up for the risks that revolutionary struggle brings. As conditions inevitably worsen (whether you like it as an accelerationist or not) people will have to admit that capitalism and the United States will not last, but for now we need education and organization to avoid the alternative people seeing being fascism. As for the post revolution future there will likely be some sort of black and indigenous socialist confederacy and settlers like us will have representatives. But we have to keep in mind they don’t owe us anything. The might of our ancestors and current leaders does not make right. We must earn it.
Sorry for the rambliness. I hope that clears some things up. I implore you to listen to the Decolonized Buffalo podcast, the Red Nation podcast, and the Marx Madness podcast. If you don’t like podcasts at least read the Red Deal book.
i dont disagree with most of what you said it just has nothing to do with what i said kinda feels like you are just talking past me. tho u seem to be under some kind of illusion that most or even all white people the us are labor aristocracy or petite bourgeoisie which i do disagree with because it is just wrong.
I’m sorry if I sound like that to you. I think comrades see obviously bad labor aristocrats and generalize it to the entire white working class. However we are all being proletarianized and gen z for example are coming around toward class consciousness. I think my previous comment addresses your balkanization fear. Correct me if there is still misunderstanding.
“I think comrades see obviously bad labor aristocrats and generalize it to the entire white working class.” yeah they do and it is wrong not just factually but morally and plenty of yall dont seem to care. also i dont fear the amerikan nation being balkanized (tho doing so when it can be avoided would be wrong) im not particularly invested in it being american not amerikan my self, i fear this bloodthirst and antagonization of the amerikan working people will prevent socialist movements in the US from achieving socialism as i have said many times its probably difficult to overthrow capitalism while going out of your way to make enemies out of 60% of the working people at least.
Similar to my thoughts. If we are really willing to hail a bright new future we must start with the light from burning the flag. 🔥🇺🇸 they’ve been great up until the subject of decolonization has come up, so it’s really shocked me. On the subject of Israel apparently they don’t even think it’s illegitimate any more—And it would be far easier to return that land and evict that minority of settlers than here—
They seem based but this topic itself is what is causing a divide between both based parties. It’s not an easy question, it’s the same as what is to be done in regards to Israel? And trust me this will come up with them at that time as well.
They make great points but the question of nuance is what is to be done in the case of historical injustice? America itself is a country of genocide, and it’s continuation not only justifies that genocide but inspires further genocide as it itself would stand as a testimate to the immovability of said injustice. The idea of too big to be humbled, of chauvinism itself lives within the legacy of America. The country America must cease to exist.
They combine the question of America and those currently living in America as 1 and the same issue of which they are not. Only one who has a shallow understanding of the logistics of relocating 340 million people would advocate doing so because they believe it to be right. And the other option is genocide and for those who advocate that I ask them to reevaluate which side of the ‘political isle’ they belong to, which class?
America must become a new country, with new norms, new rules, and a historically just culture without discrediting the current inhabitants nor the original inhabitants. We’re all here now and none of us (working class) are guilty. So the new nation must reflect the needs and culture of those who currently live here while making efforts to repopulate the nation with those who originally lived here. This culture of the newer inhabitants of course must be proletarian culture and the “American culture” must be purged for the sake of the world really.
I agree with this.
Their response is well reasoned except that they’ve assumed the preservation of the USA as part of their solution. It’s incredibly likely that breaking the white supremacist and capitalist power base will come via a collapse and Balkanization/extreme decentralization of US power. The political landscape of North America after capitalism is fraught with uncertainty but they seem to have plotted a clear, fixed path through the unknown which just smacks of dogma.
if the only way to bring about a revolution is to immiserate millions of people by balkanizing their country then maybe said people would have a thing or 2 to say about your totally not bloodthirsty plan. u cant bring about a revolution while actively antagonizing the very people its supposed to help.
Where did I say that was the ‘only way’?
What’s my plan? Where did I say I have a fucking ‘plan’ for the US?
First, yes you can, but that’s not what I’m advocating. Second, nobody needs to ‘actively antagonize them’, their govermment will do that itself. Third, US Citizens’ ignorance and complacency about their political system doesn’t just harm them, it harms or threatens to harm the lives and prosperity of every human being living in striking distance of their hegemony. A revolution in the US would help everyone, of which the US is a tiny minority. That’s who it’s supposed to help.
Balkanization of the US is not likely because we want it to be but because as this state loses its power there will likely be uprisings in certain portions liberating parts, not the whole immediately. And the part that’s still US will probably be overtly fascist. The land we are on belongs to the indigenous people and the defeat of the settler state doesn’t mean we all have to die, but that it will be up to them how their resources are used. The myth that indigenous people will genocide us comes from the settler psyche in that we’re worried our ancestors methods used against them will be returned in kind. This will not happen because they are fucking savages like the Europeans. Recall that Marx’s idea for future communism came from primitive communism and most indigenous tribes run/ran on collective ownership. They have have a whole lot better chance of achieving socialism here than any white communist movements here have ever had.
if there is a revolution and it ends in stalemate or if the us just falls apart thats one thing, what can you do right, but this is just not the sentiment im seeing from most people who talk about it they want it to happen they call for it they say it is necessary and good because the american nation does not exist or is invalid because of how it came to be. and yeah im not worried that oppressed people are going to genocide white people the number just dont work out and neither will any movement with such ideas at its center anyways which is what am actually worried about. i see such hatred and bloodthirst misdirected at random white working people with people calling most if not all white people animals or inhuman and most around here dont seems at all worried by it, a group which allows ideas like that to be so prevalent and even revel in them can not possible succeed in bringing about any positive change and idk about you but i wanna be alive the day this shithole is no longer capitalist.
so yeah im always gonna call out shitty sentiments like wanting any country to be balkanize or dehumanizing random working people who have done nothing because its bad and its shit and its just plain wrong.
The US is not a legitimate nation. It was founded on slavery and settler colonialism. If you’ve read Fanon you know that the most oppressed and dehumanized people, those with the least to lose are the most willing to carry out the work of revolution. This is why the Black Panthers focused on the lumpen proletariat. Indigenous people are closer to socialism now than any communist party is. They’ve got millions of people who understand that capitalism has taken their land and are the most likely to fight for it back. They also already have states recognized internationally with a communal culture that inspired Marx. Indigenous comrades understand the conditions of this country the most along with how to live in harmony with the people and land as they’ve done millennia. The reason comrades disparage USians in general is because most labor aristocrats and petty bourgeoise here are complacent and understand the the gains handed down to us by the imperialist bourgeoisie are selfishly not worth giving up for the risks that revolutionary struggle brings. As conditions inevitably worsen (whether you like it as an accelerationist or not) people will have to admit that capitalism and the United States will not last, but for now we need education and organization to avoid the alternative people seeing being fascism. As for the post revolution future there will likely be some sort of black and indigenous socialist confederacy and settlers like us will have representatives. But we have to keep in mind they don’t owe us anything. The might of our ancestors and current leaders does not make right. We must earn it.
Sorry for the rambliness. I hope that clears some things up. I implore you to listen to the Decolonized Buffalo podcast, the Red Nation podcast, and the Marx Madness podcast. If you don’t like podcasts at least read the Red Deal book.
i dont disagree with most of what you said it just has nothing to do with what i said kinda feels like you are just talking past me. tho u seem to be under some kind of illusion that most or even all white people the us are labor aristocracy or petite bourgeoisie which i do disagree with because it is just wrong.
I’m sorry if I sound like that to you. I think comrades see obviously bad labor aristocrats and generalize it to the entire white working class. However we are all being proletarianized and gen z for example are coming around toward class consciousness. I think my previous comment addresses your balkanization fear. Correct me if there is still misunderstanding.
“I think comrades see obviously bad labor aristocrats and generalize it to the entire white working class.” yeah they do and it is wrong not just factually but morally and plenty of yall dont seem to care. also i dont fear the amerikan nation being balkanized (tho doing so when it can be avoided would be wrong) im not particularly invested in it being american not amerikan my self, i fear this bloodthirst and antagonization of the amerikan working people will prevent socialist movements in the US from achieving socialism as i have said many times its probably difficult to overthrow capitalism while going out of your way to make enemies out of 60% of the working people at least.
Similar to my thoughts. If we are really willing to hail a bright new future we must start with the light from burning the flag. 🔥🇺🇸 they’ve been great up until the subject of decolonization has come up, so it’s really shocked me. On the subject of Israel apparently they don’t even think it’s illegitimate any more—And it would be far easier to return that land and evict that minority of settlers than here—
That’s unfortunate. Perhaps they’ll change their position on this issue in time.
I think this is an excellent take.
Thank you comrade