I am unable to understand how trying to mix idealism with Marxism is a non controversial thing, but reminding everyone that Abrahamism is reactionary can get you banned from most communist groups…
No, from Spain. Still a place very, very religious, in a variety of ways, which made me comprehend more the inherent nature of religions in general, specially Abrahamism.
Hey, do you believe that the Bible doesn’t mention the systemic killing of LGBTs as an obligation in the OT too? Or that Jesus was not a Jewish circumsiced dude that claimed to “fulfill the law”? Or you have read a different Bible? You could also admit that you actually haven’t, eh? The absolute majority of Christianity hasn’t done it,just believed at face value what their family, priest, friends, etc said because “if they are confident when saying the thing, then the thing must be true”.
Your posts have been sporadic, incoherent, and off base. I am sorry, but you seem quite unhinged and seem to be dealing with some personal things; you might want to step away from the computer and go outside for a bit. I do not know who hurt you, but I am terribly sorry they did. Please, allow us Christians to practice our faith in peace, as we as Christian socialists will always allow you the same. We are both comrades, we are both striving for the socialist ideal, let us leave it at that.
I can’t trust that you Christians will ever let epople scape from the trap your system of dogmas is… I can’t trust any of you regardless of how I want it…
And outside the internet is even worse…
I will… Just not shut up in my commitment on religious antipropaganda… I am tired of having the same people that has been hurting me and my family constantly be free of pass to do what they want and yet people like me and all survivors of religions have to be considered outcasts even from alleged comrades while I see them being embraced more and more by the alt-right and because populism and all the wrong reasons…
“Thanks” for the alienation of ex religious and atheists against communism. “Thanks” a lot.
I do not know what to tell ya man, the working class is a mixed bag of religious and non-religious. You can’t just not associate with religious folk. But no one is forcing you to believe or practice Christianity. The dogma I firmly believe in has no bearing on you, or society as a whole.
Education where honest analysis is given to believers and dealing with apologists of reactionary ideologies the same way we would do if they weren’t claiming magical thinking to justify their reactionary rethoric. Religions are all ideologies. If a political ideology rises where they claim that women are inferior, slavery isn’t wrong, the followers are some sort of chosen superior people and even race, they promote genocide and the extermination of LGBTs, public shaming of people not following dogmatic precepts and even ending in ostracism (material harm) and even may end in some honour murder… Would it be torelable to let then promote this? Then, why is it torelable if they use an even more anti-materialist, anti-scientigic and anti-dialectical element such a god that commands to obey the promoters or else?
the real problem it is literally impossible to erase, as, for now, it is ingrained in the psyche of the world. Taking it away will have disastrous consequences. It was one of the USSR’s mistakes
As it wad letting religions have a say being the main reason the USSR didn’t become even more forwarded than it was. And even worse: a lot of LatAm leftism has a shit ton of ingrained homophobia precisely because the principal leftist branch is Lib.Theo.
Yeah… This is the main reason most of queer are liberals and more surely Camino Dorado may have been born… I can’t fucking believe how even today atheist leftist still can’t cope the fact that Theosocialism is the same grade of contradictions as Nazbolism, MonSoc, PatSoc or Socdems…
Prosperity theology is neoliberal and is one of the most reactionary and homophobic branches. There is no doubt that there is a contradiction between marxism and religion, but problems do not arise from religion per se, religion is ONLY the symptom of bigger problems (opium for the masses)
The symptoms are perpetuated by the same ideology (Christianity) that has promoted them in the first place with a very specific material and political interest it held once and still holds today, as the elimination of the sacerdotal rivals of the priestwomem (including transgender women, or how the “wholesome and not reactionary at all” Bible stated: “men who dress as women”. ) of Asherah.
It’s true that everything has a material explanation (including the invention of your God, regardless of your personal indoctrination, lurker), including the control of those material resources. And not all are just symptoms, but also veiled targets for retaining power, and still this propaganda is used today.
Religion is not only necessary to maintain Capitalism, but also the main catalist today.
Do you consider that fascism should be eradicated? Why? And why if the same doctrine is told but just with a magic sky old man then it “miraculously” “has to be respected and protected”? Because most people haven’t read Sacred Texts in a critical manner.
Wrong. Lib. Theo is not thaaaaaat influent here. But yes, latAm is very christian and homophobic. But it is not ideologies or theologies that create these prejudices, but the prior material conditions.
They were always in the minority. Today they are more minority than ever, facing the success of neoliberal prosperity theology.
You really think that the homophobia dragged from religions (religions are ideologies, mind you) don’t have a material and power interest? In ancient times many deities had a priesthood dominated by non-cis/non-het in a world where religious and political influences were impossible to separate. And Yahweism rose after the control of all the Hebrew state eliminating all competence while also implementing a rise in nationalistic mythos in a very similar way Francisco Franco made El Cid Campeador a national deity or even invented Don Pelayo Silvio.
(please, understand the next in the most natural, politically human a.k.a. REAL way)
One common deity in Israel was Asherah, which was the consort of El and mother of Yahweh, then when El stopped being the patron deity, Asherah became the consort of Yahweh (in other Canaanite nations they did the same with their own patron gods, like Asherah wife of Ba’al, for example).
During NeoBabylonian exile, the Hebrews became monolastric due to nationalist propaganda so they would kind of unite in their own identity in the most copium way, specially to save the sacerdotal class of the time, and forged prophets such as Daniel, Samson, plagiarized myths like the Epic of Gilgamesh, with characters such as Zyusudra for Noah, or the Enuma Elish for Genesis with propagandistic purposes and maybe it was during that time that they invented Moses to finish the Hebrew übermensch mentality and narrative.
With this, they needed to also get rid of the rival native priesthood once they became independent againt before the Helenic domain, forging Deuteronomy, where believers of Yahweh, the majority of the land, had to commit genocide against foreign influence and eliminate the other sacerdots in a very classic oligarch vs oligarch parallel we see today.
Asherah, which has been mentioned, was the second most followed deity there was in that place in that time. And you know which made the Sacerdotal Class of Asherah? Women and Transwomen.
Guess what also commanded Deuteronomy?
The systemic eradication of queer people.
Which has endured until today.
It’s true, material conditions form ideologies, but ideologies can be dragged a looooooooooong way til today to foment the rise and maintenance of an structural power. We still have kings and their monarchist horde. We still have Sacerdotal Chiefs and their theocracist horde. And we obviously have oligarchs, capitalists and bourgeoisie of all kind and their liberal hord. And funny enough, all they share in common is the same idealism, staticism and antirevolutionary elements that religions have… Not to mention that monarchism was conserved THANKS to Christianity and liberalism itself is a Protestant based ideology.
I agree with most of what you said here, but I don’t think we should see religion as simply another ideology. The main reason people become religious is because it’s something that gives them comfort and helps them deal with the hardships of life, mainly caused by the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. I saw you mentioning above you’re from Spain, I’m from Brasil and we are deeply religious, to the point people are more tolerant with trans people, ex-prisioners and many other marginalized groups than atheists (though not by much). My country is extremely reactionary and homophobic, but even in the our most successful leftists groups, such as MST, people are still deeply religious - and they are far from being homophobes or reactionaries.
Going against religion here is basically political suicide. It’s sad, but it is what it is. As much as idealistic religions are though, they still are fundamentally different from liberalism and other ideologies because it’s main drive is to provide comfort.
Obviously, communists should not promote religions, but cracking down hard on them was a mistake back then and it would be a mistake now, specially with a religion like Christianity, that is full of followers with persecution complexes. Going after them would just give them justification.
The best way to fight them is to destroy what makes people seek them in the first place, that being the horrendous reality the working class lives on. For example, in many Favelas, there is basically nowhere you can go for cultural activities, like music, arts and sports… except in the local church. There, you can sing songs to praise god, and someone who was interested in learning music, it is the best place the person can go. Instead of destroying the only place people have to go, we should build basic infrastructure, parks, incentivize cultural activities in schools, where they can actually learn to draw/sing or whatever, and eventually, the church will become obsolete. Parallel to that, we have to strip away schools of any form of religion indoctrination, but there is no need to take a HARD anti-religion instance. We should focus on teaching them actual sciences and critical thinking, not on combating religion. Education + improvement of life conditions + no persecution of religions (but no incentivizing) is probably the best strategy we could follow. But it’s a long term one.
Fascists/libs on the other hand, may they rot in prison
I know, I know… And I fucking hate it, because religion is actually the door for reactionary, and people can’t live without opium… Yet here we are, atheist being persecuted just because we are clean. It’s fucking unfair, to be honest, and religion is precisely promoted by the bougies…
In my experience, the best thing that destroys faith in magic is the use of science and promoting platforms for education were skeptics can be protected and listened, while also eliminating all privileges of confessions. Being “hard” against believers may be the wrong way, since you just need a minimum scratch to make the leftiest of religious go full reactionary nutjob guru victim complex and lying machine gun (have evidence), but if we begin handling down minorital sects exposing why they are dangerous groups, such as Mormons, JWs, etc, it could be an spark that will lead to finally the dinamitation of a whole majority wanting to remove religion from the sight… Specially if you use tools such as the BITE (Behavior Information Though and Emotion) control model, we can make people realize that sacred texts, practically all of them, are cult manuals. This may help.
My answer for this, lastly, is: what did the Good Germany do to all of them Nazis when became socialist? Did it work? I think this is a good example to make first steps. Mostly where reeducated and rehabilitated, religious people just need more subtlety. Yesterday, I was in tears of joy: I deconverted someone precisely using street epistemology, and luring them into being intellectually honest with his beliefs, what actually says the Bible, and how it contradicts the world and even Jesus’s words are silly in a honest mentality. It may not be that difficult having the right people on it.
I am unable to understand how trying to mix idealism with Marxism is a non controversial thing, but reminding everyone that Abrahamism is reactionary can get you banned from most communist groups…
I am curious about your name. Are you from the Bible state region?
No, from Spain. Still a place very, very religious, in a variety of ways, which made me comprehend more the inherent nature of religions in general, specially Abrahamism.
Good thing the Abrahamic religions are not reactionary ;)
Hey, do you believe that the Bible doesn’t mention the systemic killing of LGBTs as an obligation in the OT too? Or that Jesus was not a Jewish circumsiced dude that claimed to “fulfill the law”? Or you have read a different Bible? You could also admit that you actually haven’t, eh? The absolute majority of Christianity hasn’t done it,just believed at face value what their family, priest, friends, etc said because “if they are confident when saying the thing, then the thing must be true”.
Your posts have been sporadic, incoherent, and off base. I am sorry, but you seem quite unhinged and seem to be dealing with some personal things; you might want to step away from the computer and go outside for a bit. I do not know who hurt you, but I am terribly sorry they did. Please, allow us Christians to practice our faith in peace, as we as Christian socialists will always allow you the same. We are both comrades, we are both striving for the socialist ideal, let us leave it at that.
I can’t trust that you Christians will ever let epople scape from the trap your system of dogmas is… I can’t trust any of you regardless of how I want it… And outside the internet is even worse…
I will… Just not shut up in my commitment on religious antipropaganda… I am tired of having the same people that has been hurting me and my family constantly be free of pass to do what they want and yet people like me and all survivors of religions have to be considered outcasts even from alleged comrades while I see them being embraced more and more by the alt-right and because populism and all the wrong reasons…
“Thanks” for the alienation of ex religious and atheists against communism. “Thanks” a lot.
I do not know what to tell ya man, the working class is a mixed bag of religious and non-religious. You can’t just not associate with religious folk. But no one is forcing you to believe or practice Christianity. The dogma I firmly believe in has no bearing on you, or society as a whole.
Feel free to ban that radical atheist from this community. We support religious comrades here.
thanks man, I appreciate it
Also, it will be funny if you try to portray as different as PatSocs, SocDems or MonSocs… Like… There’s little difference.
It… It does like… A 100%…
This is either peak revisionism, willful ignorance or the most dishonest expression I have ever seen, and it came from “a comrade”.
Hey I’m an atheist too. But I’m curious, how do you it is the right way to deal with religion?
Education where honest analysis is given to believers and dealing with apologists of reactionary ideologies the same way we would do if they weren’t claiming magical thinking to justify their reactionary rethoric. Religions are all ideologies. If a political ideology rises where they claim that women are inferior, slavery isn’t wrong, the followers are some sort of chosen superior people and even race, they promote genocide and the extermination of LGBTs, public shaming of people not following dogmatic precepts and even ending in ostracism (material harm) and even may end in some honour murder… Would it be torelable to let then promote this? Then, why is it torelable if they use an even more anti-materialist, anti-scientigic and anti-dialectical element such a god that commands to obey the promoters or else?
the real problem it is literally impossible to erase, as, for now, it is ingrained in the psyche of the world. Taking it away will have disastrous consequences. It was one of the USSR’s mistakes
As it wad letting religions have a say being the main reason the USSR didn’t become even more forwarded than it was. And even worse: a lot of LatAm leftism has a shit ton of ingrained homophobia precisely because the principal leftist branch is Lib.Theo.
I didn’t know that about the latin american left
Yeah… This is the main reason most of queer are liberals and more surely Camino Dorado may have been born… I can’t fucking believe how even today atheist leftist still can’t cope the fact that Theosocialism is the same grade of contradictions as Nazbolism, MonSoc, PatSoc or Socdems…
Woah comrade that is very much true. thank you for this perspective.
Prosperity theology is neoliberal and is one of the most reactionary and homophobic branches. There is no doubt that there is a contradiction between marxism and religion, but problems do not arise from religion per se, religion is ONLY the symptom of bigger problems (opium for the masses)
The symptoms are perpetuated by the same ideology (Christianity) that has promoted them in the first place with a very specific material and political interest it held once and still holds today, as the elimination of the sacerdotal rivals of the priestwomem (including transgender women, or how the “wholesome and not reactionary at all” Bible stated: “men who dress as women”. ) of Asherah.
It’s true that everything has a material explanation (including the invention of your God, regardless of your personal indoctrination, lurker), including the control of those material resources. And not all are just symptoms, but also veiled targets for retaining power, and still this propaganda is used today. Religion is not only necessary to maintain Capitalism, but also the main catalist today.
Do you consider that fascism should be eradicated? Why? And why if the same doctrine is told but just with a magic sky old man then it “miraculously” “has to be respected and protected”? Because most people haven’t read Sacred Texts in a critical manner.
Wrong. Lib. Theo is not thaaaaaat influent here. But yes, latAm is very christian and homophobic. But it is not ideologies or theologies that create these prejudices, but the prior material conditions.
They were always in the minority. Today they are more minority than ever, facing the success of neoliberal prosperity theology.
You really think that the homophobia dragged from religions (religions are ideologies, mind you) don’t have a material and power interest? In ancient times many deities had a priesthood dominated by non-cis/non-het in a world where religious and political influences were impossible to separate. And Yahweism rose after the control of all the Hebrew state eliminating all competence while also implementing a rise in nationalistic mythos in a very similar way Francisco Franco made El Cid Campeador a national deity or even invented Don Pelayo Silvio.
(please, understand the next in the most natural, politically human a.k.a. REAL way) One common deity in Israel was Asherah, which was the consort of El and mother of Yahweh, then when El stopped being the patron deity, Asherah became the consort of Yahweh (in other Canaanite nations they did the same with their own patron gods, like Asherah wife of Ba’al, for example). During NeoBabylonian exile, the Hebrews became monolastric due to nationalist propaganda so they would kind of unite in their own identity in the most copium way, specially to save the sacerdotal class of the time, and forged prophets such as Daniel, Samson, plagiarized myths like the Epic of Gilgamesh, with characters such as Zyusudra for Noah, or the Enuma Elish for Genesis with propagandistic purposes and maybe it was during that time that they invented Moses to finish the Hebrew übermensch mentality and narrative. With this, they needed to also get rid of the rival native priesthood once they became independent againt before the Helenic domain, forging Deuteronomy, where believers of Yahweh, the majority of the land, had to commit genocide against foreign influence and eliminate the other sacerdots in a very classic oligarch vs oligarch parallel we see today.
Asherah, which has been mentioned, was the second most followed deity there was in that place in that time. And you know which made the Sacerdotal Class of Asherah? Women and Transwomen. Guess what also commanded Deuteronomy? The systemic eradication of queer people.
Which has endured until today.
It’s true, material conditions form ideologies, but ideologies can be dragged a looooooooooong way til today to foment the rise and maintenance of an structural power. We still have kings and their monarchist horde. We still have Sacerdotal Chiefs and their theocracist horde. And we obviously have oligarchs, capitalists and bourgeoisie of all kind and their liberal hord. And funny enough, all they share in common is the same idealism, staticism and antirevolutionary elements that religions have… Not to mention that monarchism was conserved THANKS to Christianity and liberalism itself is a Protestant based ideology.
I agree with most of what you said here, but I don’t think we should see religion as simply another ideology. The main reason people become religious is because it’s something that gives them comfort and helps them deal with the hardships of life, mainly caused by the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. I saw you mentioning above you’re from Spain, I’m from Brasil and we are deeply religious, to the point people are more tolerant with trans people, ex-prisioners and many other marginalized groups than atheists (though not by much). My country is extremely reactionary and homophobic, but even in the our most successful leftists groups, such as MST, people are still deeply religious - and they are far from being homophobes or reactionaries. Going against religion here is basically political suicide. It’s sad, but it is what it is. As much as idealistic religions are though, they still are fundamentally different from liberalism and other ideologies because it’s main drive is to provide comfort.
Obviously, communists should not promote religions, but cracking down hard on them was a mistake back then and it would be a mistake now, specially with a religion like Christianity, that is full of followers with persecution complexes. Going after them would just give them justification.
The best way to fight them is to destroy what makes people seek them in the first place, that being the horrendous reality the working class lives on. For example, in many Favelas, there is basically nowhere you can go for cultural activities, like music, arts and sports… except in the local church. There, you can sing songs to praise god, and someone who was interested in learning music, it is the best place the person can go. Instead of destroying the only place people have to go, we should build basic infrastructure, parks, incentivize cultural activities in schools, where they can actually learn to draw/sing or whatever, and eventually, the church will become obsolete. Parallel to that, we have to strip away schools of any form of religion indoctrination, but there is no need to take a HARD anti-religion instance. We should focus on teaching them actual sciences and critical thinking, not on combating religion. Education + improvement of life conditions + no persecution of religions (but no incentivizing) is probably the best strategy we could follow. But it’s a long term one.
Fascists/libs on the other hand, may they rot in prison
I know, I know… And I fucking hate it, because religion is actually the door for reactionary, and people can’t live without opium… Yet here we are, atheist being persecuted just because we are clean. It’s fucking unfair, to be honest, and religion is precisely promoted by the bougies…
In my experience, the best thing that destroys faith in magic is the use of science and promoting platforms for education were skeptics can be protected and listened, while also eliminating all privileges of confessions. Being “hard” against believers may be the wrong way, since you just need a minimum scratch to make the leftiest of religious go full reactionary nutjob guru victim complex and lying machine gun (have evidence), but if we begin handling down minorital sects exposing why they are dangerous groups, such as Mormons, JWs, etc, it could be an spark that will lead to finally the dinamitation of a whole majority wanting to remove religion from the sight… Specially if you use tools such as the BITE (Behavior Information Though and Emotion) control model, we can make people realize that sacred texts, practically all of them, are cult manuals. This may help.
My answer for this, lastly, is: what did the Good Germany do to all of them Nazis when became socialist? Did it work? I think this is a good example to make first steps. Mostly where reeducated and rehabilitated, religious people just need more subtlety. Yesterday, I was in tears of joy: I deconverted someone precisely using street epistemology, and luring them into being intellectually honest with his beliefs, what actually says the Bible, and how it contradicts the world and even Jesus’s words are silly in a honest mentality. It may not be that difficult having the right people on it.