By Tyler Lyons On My Life Before Joining the Party Long before the onset of the COVID pandemic, I was struggling with my political identity. I had been disillusioned with…
To add on my previous response, i think this quote by Mao Zedong from the time of the japanese invasion of China is quite relevant on this:
"Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be. The specific content of patriotism is determined by historical conditions. There is the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler, and there is our patriotism. Communists must resolutely oppose the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler. The Communists of Japan and Germany are defeatists with regard to the wars being waged by their countries. To bring about the defeat of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means is in the interests of the Japanese and the German people, and the more complete the defeat the better. For the wars launched by the Japanese aggressors and Hitler are harming the people at home as well as the people of the world.
China’s case, however, is different, because she is the victim of aggression. Chinese Communists must therefore combine patriotism with internationalism. We are at once internationalists and patriots, and our slogan is, “Fight to defend the motherland against the aggressors.” For us defeatism is a crime and to strive for victory in the War of Resistance is an inescapable duty. For only by fighting in defense of the motherland can we defeat the aggressors and achieve national liberation. And only by achieving national liberation will it be possible for the proletariat and other working people to achieve their own emancipation. The victory of China and the defeat of the invading imperialists will help the people of other countries. Thus in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism."
As you see, Mao clearly states, as indicated by the “” around the word “patriotism”, that the so called “patriotism” of the imperialists is false, that not only do the invaded and oppressed have the patriotic duty to fight back, but also the working class of the invader countries has the patriotic duty to fight back against their own government, since the war doesnt benefit them either. Thus, as Mao states, “[communists] not only can be [patriots], but also must be [patriots]” and this is fully compatible with internationalism. And this makes sense, the workers of the world have the same interest, to achieve socialism and then communism, so it only follows that by fighting for the interests of your countrys workers, thus being a patriot, you are also fighting for the interests of the workers of the whole world, thus being an internationalist.
Patriotism in the context of fighting in a war of literal self preservation and patriotism in the context of Americans just existing on a day to day basis are pretty different things. Everyday Americans aren’t victims of aggression of foreign invaders. Trying to isolate these quotes and ideas in a vacuum isn’t really encompassing of them in their entirety.
Patriotism has nothing to do with “being proud” of anything.
In America, it very much does, and again trying to isolate these ideas in a vacuum isn’t taking them as a whole. The reality is that in America, Patriotism, nationalism and jingoism might as well be the same thing. If you, as a Spaniard, want to be patriotic based on your understanding of the word then go for it.
despite what fake patriots (meaning the bourgeoisie) would want you to believe, your country is made up of its people, its not an abstract idealistic idea of “America” or any other country
When I say America, I’m talking about the government, it’s long history, foundation of oppression, and the willing participation from individuals in furthering that oppression for their own gain.
“you cant be patriotic of imperial core countries” and that if you do you are proimperialist is ridiculous
I never said this. Go back and read what I said. I said that in times of trouble and in war especially, ideas of patriotism have always been subordinated to the will of capitalists. In America, trying to hold on to the term patriotism in the hopes that people one day wake up and realize that well actually, patriotism is actually this socialist notion of love for your people and national liberation from the bourgeoisie is naive and will always be futile in the end. Trying to maintain your own specific definition of the word and not taking into account the historical and current conditions it exists is like trying to swim against the current. You end up getting swallowed.
Also i dont understand what your last sentence is about, i said nothing about nationalism.
There i meant patriotism, not nationalism. I was in the car typing fast.
You are the one isolating things in a vacuum, ignoring the whole world, engaging in american exceptionalism, that America somehow is different than the rest of the world, patriotism is bad there. Communist parties all around the world recognize this. Here are 3 articles from the Communist Parties of Greece and Spain defending patriotism:
Only in the USA do communist parties deny this reality, and this only extremely recently. Even the CPUSA, before 1991, followed the USSR line and defended patriotism. There are hundreds of photos of CPUSA meetings in the 1960s 1970s with american flags everywhere and a huge bust of Abraham Lincoln. You think we are “appeasing the right”? You are literally doing so! What is the argument the right always uses against communists? That we are unpatriotic, that we hate our country, that we are foreign agents. And instead of rejecting that label, as communist parties worldwide do, you embrace it! You say “yes, i am unpatriotic, i do hate America, i want to see America destroyed, i work for China”. You are the one appeasing the right! This is just like those who say “USSR wasnt real socialism”, ceding territory to the liberals in the hopes of winning them over.
We arent using a “alternative definition of patriotism”, we are literally using its normal definiton. Patriotism is loving your country. How is wanting all to have equal rights, free healthcare, full employment, true democracy and good living standards not loving your country? Lenin made a clear distinction between socialist and bourgeois patriotism. By denying that socialist patriotism exists in the USA you are literally engaging in american exceptionalism. You say patriotism has to do with the US government. Yet, even using liberal definitions of patriotism, how can the US government be patriotic? They serve international billionaires, they refuse to give their people the most basic necessities, theyd rathers serve Wall Street than their country. How is that patriotism? Thats not patriotism, its the opposite. Patriotism is fighting for your country, your people, so that they can have a good life and be proud of the society they live in. How is that not communism? You dont love your people or what? If so, why are you even a communist? What is there more patriotic than wanting to help your fellow countrymen, even if you dont know them? How is that not something a communist would do?
You keep repeating the same points, so this is the last thing I’ll say.
You keep trying to narrow things down to your own specific definition of your ideal version of patriotism. This version of patriotism that you speak of doesn’t exist in the US. US patriotism is highly jingoistic and inextricably tied to Imperialism. Holding on to it in the hopes that American people suddenly wake up and adopt your socialist version of patriotism
Even the CPUSA, before 1991, followed the USSR line and defended patriotism
This still doesn’t change the reality of the vast difference between the largest imperial power on the planet and a country that had already had it’s revolution and discarded any notions of the former Russian empire. Oh, Abraham Lincoln, truly the shining example of patriotism. The reality is that he was bloodthirsty and furthered the removal and genocide of Native Americans from their land. He said this about freeing slaves, “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that”. Yes, he was an abolitionist, but only on the contention that he wanted to “save the union” before anything else. You say that you would understand why American communists would hate the flag in a later response to someone else, but you point out the CPUSA waving around the US flag and upholding Lincoln as somehow good things.
While you’re mentioning the CPUSA, they had this nonsense to say about
Stalin and Mao, whoops!
You think we are “appeasing the right”? You are literally doing so! What is the argument the right always uses against communists? That we are unpatriotic, that we hate our country, that we are foreign agents. And instead of rejecting that label, as communist parties worldwide do, you embrace it! You say “yes, i am unpatriotic, i do hate America, i want to see America destroyed, i work for China”. You are the one appeasing the right! This is just like those who say “USSR wasnt real socialism”
The leaps you’re making here are unhinged. Who on earth said you were appeasing the right? You’re engaging in reddit level discussion right now. Once again, here’s what I said, patriotism in Imperial core countries is always subordinated to capitalists in times of trouble and war especially. That’s not saying that you’re being a willing participant in that, but that your own perception of patriotism and those alike are irrelevant if it doesn’t align with the aims of Capitalists in times of trouble/ war. Regardless of whatever definition you have of it, nothing will change the inextricable link between American patriotism and American jingoism.
What is the argument the right uses against communists? If you only adopt certain positions based on how reactionaries react to you, then I don’t know what to tell you. I could say “peace is good, i am a communist” and reactionaries would still find a way to flip that 180. I hate the United states, and it should wither away and go the way of the Russian empire.
They serve international billionaires, they refuse to give their people the most basic necessities, theyd rathers serve Wall Street than their country. How is that patriotism? Thats not patriotism, its the opposite.
None of that changes the political reality of what patriotism is in the US, and how it will continue to be used in the US. Once again, trying to cling to your own definition to try co-opt it from capitalist hegemony is like trying to swim upstream against a raging current. It’s futile. Patriotism in the US is and will always be linked to the oppression of people abroad and locally.
You continue peddling american exceptionalism! So the whole world has socialist patriotism, but not USA, USA is special. I never said Abraham Lincoln or US flag were good or bad. Im not american, its not up to me to choose which patriotic symbols the american people should identify with. If they like Lincoln and USA flag its ok, if they dont its ok. All i said is that american communist parties always used to be patriotic, until very recently when they decided to appeal to liberalism. Thus, its completely false that american patriotism is inherently reactionary, unless you are saying that 1960s CPUSA was reactionary. Why are you quoting a CPUSA article from 2020? Im talking about the CPUSA of the 1960s and 1970s, before CPUSA became full of liberals. Modern day CPUSA rejects patriotism.
Greece is an imperial core country, yet its communist party is very patriotic. Are they reactionary? All european communist parties are patriots. Greece, Spain, Italy, Moldova, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, etc. Many of these countries are imperial core, so your argument is nonsense. Its an argument invented by post1991 US communists to justify their appeal to liberalism and american exceptionalism. Patriotism, like everything, has a class charachter. You have bourgeois and proletarian patriotism. You are talking about bourgeois patriotism, im talking about proletarian patriotism, which definetely exists in USA. What is it if not, when working class americans love their fellow americans and want to improve their lives, together? You are literally being patriotic right now, by wanting all americans to be free of oppression and exploitation and have good living standards and socialism, idk why you are so hell bent on denying it.
To add on my previous response, i think this quote by Mao Zedong from the time of the japanese invasion of China is quite relevant on this:
"Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be. The specific content of patriotism is determined by historical conditions. There is the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler, and there is our patriotism. Communists must resolutely oppose the “patriotism” of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler. The Communists of Japan and Germany are defeatists with regard to the wars being waged by their countries. To bring about the defeat of the Japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means is in the interests of the Japanese and the German people, and the more complete the defeat the better. For the wars launched by the Japanese aggressors and Hitler are harming the people at home as well as the people of the world.
China’s case, however, is different, because she is the victim of aggression. Chinese Communists must therefore combine patriotism with internationalism. We are at once internationalists and patriots, and our slogan is, “Fight to defend the motherland against the aggressors.” For us defeatism is a crime and to strive for victory in the War of Resistance is an inescapable duty. For only by fighting in defense of the motherland can we defeat the aggressors and achieve national liberation. And only by achieving national liberation will it be possible for the proletariat and other working people to achieve their own emancipation. The victory of China and the defeat of the invading imperialists will help the people of other countries. Thus in wars of national liberation patriotism is applied internationalism."
Source: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_10.htm
As you see, Mao clearly states, as indicated by the “” around the word “patriotism”, that the so called “patriotism” of the imperialists is false, that not only do the invaded and oppressed have the patriotic duty to fight back, but also the working class of the invader countries has the patriotic duty to fight back against their own government, since the war doesnt benefit them either. Thus, as Mao states, “[communists] not only can be [patriots], but also must be [patriots]” and this is fully compatible with internationalism. And this makes sense, the workers of the world have the same interest, to achieve socialism and then communism, so it only follows that by fighting for the interests of your countrys workers, thus being a patriot, you are also fighting for the interests of the workers of the whole world, thus being an internationalist.
Patriotism in the context of fighting in a war of literal self preservation and patriotism in the context of Americans just existing on a day to day basis are pretty different things. Everyday Americans aren’t victims of aggression of foreign invaders. Trying to isolate these quotes and ideas in a vacuum isn’t really encompassing of them in their entirety.
In America, it very much does, and again trying to isolate these ideas in a vacuum isn’t taking them as a whole. The reality is that in America, Patriotism, nationalism and jingoism might as well be the same thing. If you, as a Spaniard, want to be patriotic based on your understanding of the word then go for it.
When I say America, I’m talking about the government, it’s long history, foundation of oppression, and the willing participation from individuals in furthering that oppression for their own gain.
I never said this. Go back and read what I said. I said that in times of trouble and in war especially, ideas of patriotism have always been subordinated to the will of capitalists. In America, trying to hold on to the term patriotism in the hopes that people one day wake up and realize that well actually, patriotism is actually this socialist notion of love for your people and national liberation from the bourgeoisie is naive and will always be futile in the end. Trying to maintain your own specific definition of the word and not taking into account the historical and current conditions it exists is like trying to swim against the current. You end up getting swallowed.
There i meant patriotism, not nationalism. I was in the car typing fast.
You are the one isolating things in a vacuum, ignoring the whole world, engaging in american exceptionalism, that America somehow is different than the rest of the world, patriotism is bad there. Communist parties all around the world recognize this. Here are 3 articles from the Communist Parties of Greece and Spain defending patriotism:
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=209459
https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=329397
https://www.mundoobrero.es/pl.php?id=10161
Only in the USA do communist parties deny this reality, and this only extremely recently. Even the CPUSA, before 1991, followed the USSR line and defended patriotism. There are hundreds of photos of CPUSA meetings in the 1960s 1970s with american flags everywhere and a huge bust of Abraham Lincoln. You think we are “appeasing the right”? You are literally doing so! What is the argument the right always uses against communists? That we are unpatriotic, that we hate our country, that we are foreign agents. And instead of rejecting that label, as communist parties worldwide do, you embrace it! You say “yes, i am unpatriotic, i do hate America, i want to see America destroyed, i work for China”. You are the one appeasing the right! This is just like those who say “USSR wasnt real socialism”, ceding territory to the liberals in the hopes of winning them over.
We arent using a “alternative definition of patriotism”, we are literally using its normal definiton. Patriotism is loving your country. How is wanting all to have equal rights, free healthcare, full employment, true democracy and good living standards not loving your country? Lenin made a clear distinction between socialist and bourgeois patriotism. By denying that socialist patriotism exists in the USA you are literally engaging in american exceptionalism. You say patriotism has to do with the US government. Yet, even using liberal definitions of patriotism, how can the US government be patriotic? They serve international billionaires, they refuse to give their people the most basic necessities, theyd rathers serve Wall Street than their country. How is that patriotism? Thats not patriotism, its the opposite. Patriotism is fighting for your country, your people, so that they can have a good life and be proud of the society they live in. How is that not communism? You dont love your people or what? If so, why are you even a communist? What is there more patriotic than wanting to help your fellow countrymen, even if you dont know them? How is that not something a communist would do?
You keep repeating the same points, so this is the last thing I’ll say.
You keep trying to narrow things down to your own specific definition of your ideal version of patriotism. This version of patriotism that you speak of doesn’t exist in the US. US patriotism is highly jingoistic and inextricably tied to Imperialism. Holding on to it in the hopes that American people suddenly wake up and adopt your socialist version of patriotism
This still doesn’t change the reality of the vast difference between the largest imperial power on the planet and a country that had already had it’s revolution and discarded any notions of the former Russian empire. Oh, Abraham Lincoln, truly the shining example of patriotism. The reality is that he was bloodthirsty and furthered the removal and genocide of Native Americans from their land. He said this about freeing slaves, “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that”. Yes, he was an abolitionist, but only on the contention that he wanted to “save the union” before anything else. You say that you would understand why American communists would hate the flag in a later response to someone else, but you point out the CPUSA waving around the US flag and upholding Lincoln as somehow good things.
While you’re mentioning the CPUSA, they had this nonsense to say about Stalin and Mao, whoops!
The leaps you’re making here are unhinged. Who on earth said you were appeasing the right? You’re engaging in reddit level discussion right now. Once again, here’s what I said, patriotism in Imperial core countries is always subordinated to capitalists in times of trouble and war especially. That’s not saying that you’re being a willing participant in that, but that your own perception of patriotism and those alike are irrelevant if it doesn’t align with the aims of Capitalists in times of trouble/ war. Regardless of whatever definition you have of it, nothing will change the inextricable link between American patriotism and American jingoism.
What is the argument the right uses against communists? If you only adopt certain positions based on how reactionaries react to you, then I don’t know what to tell you. I could say “peace is good, i am a communist” and reactionaries would still find a way to flip that 180. I hate the United states, and it should wither away and go the way of the Russian empire.
None of that changes the political reality of what patriotism is in the US, and how it will continue to be used in the US. Once again, trying to cling to your own definition to try co-opt it from capitalist hegemony is like trying to swim upstream against a raging current. It’s futile. Patriotism in the US is and will always be linked to the oppression of people abroad and locally.
You continue peddling american exceptionalism! So the whole world has socialist patriotism, but not USA, USA is special. I never said Abraham Lincoln or US flag were good or bad. Im not american, its not up to me to choose which patriotic symbols the american people should identify with. If they like Lincoln and USA flag its ok, if they dont its ok. All i said is that american communist parties always used to be patriotic, until very recently when they decided to appeal to liberalism. Thus, its completely false that american patriotism is inherently reactionary, unless you are saying that 1960s CPUSA was reactionary. Why are you quoting a CPUSA article from 2020? Im talking about the CPUSA of the 1960s and 1970s, before CPUSA became full of liberals. Modern day CPUSA rejects patriotism.
Greece is an imperial core country, yet its communist party is very patriotic. Are they reactionary? All european communist parties are patriots. Greece, Spain, Italy, Moldova, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, etc. Many of these countries are imperial core, so your argument is nonsense. Its an argument invented by post1991 US communists to justify their appeal to liberalism and american exceptionalism. Patriotism, like everything, has a class charachter. You have bourgeois and proletarian patriotism. You are talking about bourgeois patriotism, im talking about proletarian patriotism, which definetely exists in USA. What is it if not, when working class americans love their fellow americans and want to improve their lives, together? You are literally being patriotic right now, by wanting all americans to be free of oppression and exploitation and have good living standards and socialism, idk why you are so hell bent on denying it.