Community: “free of ML influence”
or “I TOTALLY SUPPORT THE ANARCHISTS DOING TERROR ATTACKS ON THE MARXIST-LENINISTS SAVING US FROM FASCISM!”
What a lack of Marxism-Leninism and historical materialism does to a mf. Literal kindergarten level leftism. These are the same people who will argue that it’s the Bolsheviks ackchually who made it possible for fascists to win the Spanish civil war by repressing anarchists (no sources provided)
When someone says “destroy mass industrial production”, what you should hear is “the disabled will die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make”.
“Producing complex medicine like insulin is actually tankie because supply chains are authoritarian.
☝️☝️☝️🤓🤓🤓”Edit: Or an even better deranged idealist take that I have actually seen in the wild (/gen not trolling) “We need to liberate ourselves from the oppressive concept that is time”
Any employment of machinery, except by capital, is to him an impossibility. Exploitation of the workman by the machine is therefore, with him, identical with exploitation of the machine by the workman.
we need to liberate ourselves from the oppressive concept that is time"
timekeeping is a tool of capitalist oppression and shit like not adjusting work hours like people did before electric lighting should be a crime.
Taylorism is the devil, and the embrace of it by the Soviets was the start of revisionism.
I’d argue that being able to optimize your workflow can be crucial if, say, you’re being invaded by genocidal fascists and your very survival depends on being able to produce large numbers of tanks and aircraft quickly.
Taylorism was embraced and made central to soviet understanding of communism before Hitler had become head of the nazi party.
But not before 15 different countries intervened in their civil war on behalf of their enemy.
I mean you can look at Lenin’s justification for taylorism yourself if you want.
The Russian is a bad worker compared with people in advanced countries. It could not be otherwise under the tsarist regime and in view of the persistence of the hangover from serfdom. The task that the Soviet government must set the people in all its scope is—learn to work. The Taylor system, the last word of capitalism in this respect, like all capitalist progress, is a combination of the refined brutality of bourgeois exploitation and a number of the greatest scientific achievements in the field of analysing mechanical motions during work, the elimination of superfluous and awkward motions, the elaboration of correct methods of work, the introduction of the best system of accounting and control, etc. The Soviet Republic must at all costs adopt all that is valuable in the achievements of science and technology in this field. The possibility of building socialism depends exactly upon our success in combining the Soviet power and the Soviet organisation of administration with the up-to-date achievements of capitalism…
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/mar/x03.htm
Oppressive concept that is time.
The way we think about time down to precise seconds is very much a result of the oppressive structure of capitalism. I wouldn’t mind going back to a time were noon was just noon and not some specific clocksignal. Time in general though? That’s silly.
Also being a type-B person is like a light disability due to the way we’ve constructed society
Someone post a instance that doesn’t want to be oppressed by the concept of reality.
Okay i don’t know when people decided that insulin was the argument against anarchism or degrowth on the left but you gotta stop, it’s wrong. Like it’s wrong to a degree that is genuinely annoying.
There are a lot of medications, including diabetes related medication, which requires enormously complex industrial processes to produce, but you can make home chemistry insulin. In fact we used to make that stuff with equipment that was less advanced than what we have in high school chemistry labs. You need that and a good size mammal you can either acquire cheaply or breed quickly like, for example, dogs (DO NOT LOOK UP THE HISTORY OF INSULIN IF YOU ARE SENSITIVE TO ANIMAL CRUELTY).
It’s an argument against anprims and twitter-anarchists. However
but you can make home chemistry insulin. In fact we used to make that stuff with equipment that was less advanced than what we have in high school chemistry labs.
There are billions of people in the world. In order to produce the amount of equipment, even simple equipment (glasses is my go-to example) for it to be available to all who need it everywhere, then you need complex supply chains. The alternative is a utopian idea of yeoman communities each somehow having access to all the raw materials needed to produce everything, as well as time and knowledge and equipment needed to:
- Make and shape glass needed for simple chemistry
- Make and shape the tools needed to make and shape glass
- Make and shape metal needed for simple chemistry
- Make and shape the tools needed to make and shape metal
- Produce enough food for livestock needed for insulin extraction
- Have access to livestock
- Having land on which to field livestock
- Some method of herding/keeping livestock
- Managing disease risks with livestock
- Make tools needed for extraction
- Sanitising the work environment
- Making the stuff needed to sanitise the work environment
- Whatever delivery method is used for homemade insulin also needs to be made
- Regularly supplying insulin in the chosen delivery method to those who need it.
- Fuel for all these processes
- Infrastructure for transport of all these materials within the yeoman community.
For every community everywhere.
On top of that, the idea is that each person does this voluntarily and on their own, whilst still taking care of their own basic needs of food, shelter and so on. And that’s just for insulin. Extrapolate it for every medicine, every aid to the disabled, and everything which needs some sort of processed good.
In order to make clean drinking water for millions, you need chemicals at an industrial scale and a lot of work-hours. Or you need vast swathes of land to make root-filtration as well as maintenance. What about power? Okay you need a generator, where do you get that? In this utopia you either make it yourself or a member of your community does. Where do you get the resources, the fuel, the knowledge and so on? What about the billions of other people, millions of other communities?The argument isn’t that it is impossible for a person to make glasses or insulin or living off the grid.
The argument is that the scale at which this needs to be done for everyone who needs it, is impossible without complex supply chains - which require some sort of organizing authority.
This is not an argument against anarchism, I assume there’s plenty of anarchist theory that actually treats these issues. It is an argument against the idealistic anarchism that is typical of the online Western left.Insulin is just a good example for this.
No, insulin is a terrible example and so is glassware. Glassware, especially specialised glassware, was famously one of the last holds out of artisan craftsmanship against industrialised processes.
You are arguing with a strawman, and you are arguing using an example that fits their argument best. Your example is bad.
Brilliant reading comprehension my guy.
I guess all the examples I presented for why disappear. I guess I also somehow argued for general glassware rather than mentioning eyeglasses and then going in detail for chemical-grade glassware for the production of insulin for millions. Seeing as how you consider these arguments bad, let me present ones that equal the ones you present.Nuh-uh, they’re good.
I was not aware this was how arguing was done well, so thank you for enlightening me. I also appreciate knowing that complex supply of all the resources, knowledge and so on needed to produce insulin for everyone who needs it disappears because you say so. Wish you’d use that power for better stuff than formatting a response to a guy online.
I starten nød jeg at du præsenterede heterodoxe idéer, men med tiden er det blevet tydeligt du bare er en tumpe med en træls adfærd. Du er dårlig til at engagere dig med tekst og folk der er uenige med dig, og din vidensbasis er langt under hvad du lader til at tro den er. Så nu blokerer jeg dig. Det er en skam, til at begynde med var dine tendenser en frisk brise, men med tiden er du blevet til en uduelig knark. Håber du vokser ud af det.
Being this offended about my reply isn’t impressive. Plenty of people get mad, you’re not special. Your point is about the need for spcialised industrial labor and your examples are a thing that can be made with relatively simple tools and animal agriculture and the actual last refuge of artisan craftsmanship. I just don’t know what to tell you, you want to argue for industrialistion and you chose two bad examples, and being mad that this is highlighted won’t change that.
it’s the argument against anprims
“Also trans people can just go back to the old days of getting DIY hormone treatments. All of them. And diabetics will make their own insulin. And all of the large groups of people living in infertile areas, sustained by deliveries of food, will organise a mass-relocation all on their own - without mass industry of course. And people wearing glasses will just all start their own local glass-blowing workshops AND get all the materials AND also all the work for the frames AND the precision mechanics used to make proper modern glasses. None of this constitutes work by the way.”
Also trans people can just go back to the old days of getting DIY hormone treatments
Twitter AnPrim’s forcing me, a transfem, to drink horse piss, because Estradiol is counter-revolutionary, civilizational decadence
You just gave more thought into it than they ever have
“Who needs toilet paper, we can just use dry leaves”
anprim lifestyle
“First we should come for the communists, for we are not communists.”Destroy mass industrial production
ah, they are a “fuck diabetic people and others who need medicine” people
I wonder if they’re a Kaczynski goober. Even as a degrowth guy, I wouldn’t say to destroy mass industrial production. Nationalise all of it, put it under the control of trade unions, reduce production to meet needs while trying to direct surplus low-tech production to local artisans and co-ops. Solar panels and insulin aren’t coming out of the backyard steel mills. Something about that phrasing stands out to me.
In an ideal world, industrialized production would be used to give everyone 10-hour work weeks instead of massively overproducing shit at the cost of the environment to make a handful of rich fucks even richer
People having life support systems is fascist, actually
Khmer Rouge shit.
Regardless of morality, turning back the materialist forces of history is not possible. We cannot return to monke
or the back to monke, let’s just live like the amish people.
destroy economy
destroy work
destroy mass industrial production
Boy howdy, these are some ignorant motherfuckers
destroy work
Never mind leftist theory, these fucks are in serious need of some goddamned thermodynamic theory, holy shit
After my revolution, nobody will exert a force over a distance
Excuse me, your blood is pumping, which is literally fascism. Don’t face the wall, moving is fascism too. I can’t shoot you, that would involve a force being exerted over a distance to accelerate a bullet.
“Let’s do primitivism”
“Hey, wait, why are the fascists in the neighboring country industrialized and I’m not?”
I’ve been told that gravity is an unjust hierarchy . . .
Becoming the Anti-Spirals from first principles to own the tankies.
delta p will only be used on peen
hehe
delta peen
Abolish bed times
tbf when they say “work” they probably mean “wage labor”
They are still calling for destroying “mass industrial production,” so it’s rather hard to say what they actually want and I think there’s a fair chance that they would do well to learn literally anything about the physical world even if they don’t know enough about physics for them to actually mean the physics concept . . .
These people give shame to anarchists the same way ACP give shame to MLs and I bet it is all downstream from some fed ops that dried up after the soviet collapse but just became self sustained.
I don’t believe that the recent “Uyghur Molotov Ribbentrop Holodomor” is self-sustained/grassroots
Destroy mass industrial production
Motherfucker’s on that Pol Pot grind.
destroy mass industrial production.
Weird way to out yourself as someone who hates people wearing glasses, diabetics - or anyone else needing regular doses of medicine - handicapped people, clean running water, food safety, green energy as a viable option as the main power supply, any form of reliable international/national network of infrastructure that allows travel, and I don’t know what else.
Also we’re burdened by nuclear power plants. Any plan for the future must involve some way of making sure none of those turn into a Chernobyl. Not to mention all the other big scary factories you can’t just shut off.
Reminds me of the WKUK sketch lol
how often do the radioactive rods need to be watered?
LETS GO TO THE MOVIES
Weird way to out yourself as someone who hates people wearing glasses, diabetics - or anyone else needing regular doses of medicine - handicapped people, clean running water, food safety, green energy as a viable option as the main power supply, any form of reliable international/national network of infrastructure that allows travel, and I don’t know what else.
All of this is already secondary to the fact that on a planet of 8 billion+ people, the majority of us would die in a global famine. I won’t really care about green energy or travel when I’m literally dying of starvation.
I somehow doubt that this user would consider it an issue though, It’s moreso a feature. People with politics like this usually see “overpopulation” as a problem.
All of this is already secondary to the fact that on a planet of 8 billion+ people, the majority of us would die in a global famine. I won’t really care about green energy or travel when I’m literally dying of starvation.
In this users imagination we live in some sort of utopia. With the incoming climate apocalypse a lot of this stuff will go away and we have to figure out what to do, but it’s not because we deliberately decide to deindustrialise.
I won’t really care about green energy or travel when I’m literally dying of starvation.
“Green energy” is also things like wind/watermills and so on. Things people use to go off the grid on their own. In the apocalyptic future those are the kinds of things you will care about, because they will let you power your community. They will also be difficult to obtain because making solar cells without mass industry is going to be tough as hell.
People with politics like this usually see “overpopulation” as a problem.
Twitter anarchists are just Malthusians with extra steps.
I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m just pointing out that alongside the things you listed as consequences of deindustrialisation, billions of people would also die from famine (which makes the other things look minor in comparison).
I didn’t take it as disagreement! I thought you were comparing the issues that would come with “no mass industry” with another equal Armageddon.
I get what you mean, caring about asphalted roads while we’re all starving to death is a bit “rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic”. Then again the Khmer rouge kinda did that, I think, and they had some odd priorities too.
Deceptichud was what convinced me to stop using my .world account. Only good thing he’s ever done.
deleted by creator
Nihilistic banditry with a façade of ideological justification
No banditry has the opportunity to be cool.
Tell that to Immortan Joe’s Doof Warrior
International (English speaking)
Just an FYI, that when I wrote that, I meant that in the sense of “explicitly not US-centric, but still in English because that is easier to manage.” Like go wild in the comments if you find someone who speaks your language, English is technically my third and seldomly I comment in Russian or German, but English should be the focus (for the posts) just for ease of communication and moderation
With these types of “woke” ancap primitivists, always find out what their take is on age of consent laws
And have no doubt, they WILL have a take on age of consent laws
They just ripped that off of c/leftymemes’ description (was meant against Dengism, I specified it since then) and are now lib-/revisio- and legit clown-posting on there 😭😭😭
WDYM? My tism brain is too tired to properly run the “interpretation engine”™ RN 😅
I think the joke is that they copied the text without realizing the text was against them (libs).
I don’t think people here on Hexbear are going to make much of a distinction between your stance and the one in the sidebar pic in the OP.
Myself and many others uphold Deng Xiaoping and don’t consider China revisionist, but as comrade LeninWeave said, this isn’t a “Hexbear line.” We have Marxist users here that are more critical of China, not to mention the anarchists here. Hexbear’s rules against sectarianism and for support of AES just means people here support China more than not as a general minimum.
I’m aware (check my account age); my criticism was of the sectarianism, and I included a demonstration that such sectarianism explicitly excludes a lot of Hexbear comrades. While leftymemes clearly is less thoroughly sectarian than the comm at issue here, I still don’t agree with its policy.
I can agree with that. I disagree with Lefty Memes on their exclusion of what they call “Dengism,” but at the same time recognize that this is not nearly as bad as Memes of Production, which is overwhelmingly “tankie bashing” or stuff like the AnPrim content above.
Not everyone who critically supports China is a “Dengist” (no one really identifies themselves as a “Dengist”, but I assume you know what I mean). I can think of users on here that critically support China but consider them revisionist and they participate here without problems.
It’s about being unnecessarily exclusionary, no? Isn’t that one of the criticisms being implied here? Leftymemes is being exclusionary in the same way, whether or not they filter out the truly ridiculous posts like those shown here.
While I uphold Deng Xiaoping Theory as Marxism-Leninism applied to conditions contemporary to Deng, and don’t consider China revisionist, I haven’t yet been banned from Lefty Memes. Memes of Production, on the other hand, I have been banned from simply for “voting while tankie,” without actually commenting or posting there, ever. Lefty Memes gives far more leeway.
letfymemes doesn’t allow memes supporting expanding productive forces using capitalism/market economies (not limited to Deng). You’re still allowed to critically support countries that did/do that. That’s a minor restriction compared to not being allowed to even think that anything AES did is good. A lot of “tankie” users post on leftymemes without problems (including me) but are banned from the comm in OP without even participating.
Well I’m a “tankie” too, apparently so… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But “tankie” doesn’t mean shit anymore
OK? ❔❔❔
“You anger then more than the fascists who actually harm them”
No @eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com, they don’t. This is what I want the fash that are actually harming me to do: (cw: self-harm)
spoiler
Meanwhile the reason I don’t like deceptichum is that while there’s actual fash running around they’re posting from AuSStralia about tankies like they’re a threat on the same level as the actual fascists roaming the streets. He could actually internalize what other people are saying and I wouldn’t have as much of a problem with him.
Additionally the reason people are mocking him is not just “being mad” because he spends most of his energy being dogmatic about tankies, it’s because his self-stated position in that meme is “the disabled will die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make”
The position is Malthusianism but with a radical veneer.
dedicates their free time to make an entire community devoted to tankie hate
“Look at how much attention they pay!”
Pathetic
@eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com the number of largely western “anarchists” making constant memes trashing Marxists and trying to attack “tankies” far outnumbers the number of Marxist memes attacking anarchists, on Lemmy. There is an extreme imbalance here, because Marxists are attacking fascism and liberalism far more than Marxists attack anarchism. Grad and Lemmy.ml have the odd anarchist-bashing meme here or there, but it is constant from comms like Memes of Production.
It isn’t that Marxists don’t have the memes, it’s that we care more about attacking liberalism and fascism than anarchism. Left-unity doesn’t mean letting clear bad-faith and unbacked mud-slinging go unopposed, which is why deceptichum made an entire new comm to ban all dissent from under the guise of “fighting Nazis,” as to them Marxists are equivalent to Nazis. Left-Unity means discussion on differences and strategic alliance on what can be alligned on, namely opposition to imperialism and capitalism, not making things up and mud-flinging like political activism is a sport.
Yes, I am banned from deceptichum’s echo chamber (for “voting while tankie”), which is why I am responding to you here, where we both can participate if you so chose.
@eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com If you shit your pants and people say “wow you shit your pants, go wash them” do you think you did something good by getting a lot of attention?
The real Eugene Debs would’ve beat this guy up tbh
