Unbelievable. Imagine demonizing a deity of something as harmless and peaceful as harvest and natural cycle.
Tbh he was not harmless deity. Think more of a late antique Dionysos or Mithra, he was born, fought with his enemies, die and then be resurrected as many other antique gods which were ultimately hijacked to form the myth of the resurrection of Christ (this always seemed to me like loosely fitting magic addition put there to entice the pagans to join).
There’s nothing more pathetic than a so-called deity hating their own worshippers. Couldn’t he help his worshippers out? Being a god of war and all.
Well he once did send Engels (whoops, german version) angel to kill hundreds of thousands Assyrians, but later he seems to cool off on that. I mean it is pretty rational for war god to hate his people for constantly losing, but then why even worship him? The Lost Tribes did exactly that i bet.
Also, if Mary indeed was the daughter of a local noble, wouldn’t her parents be able to just use their connections/power/money to just get her out of trouble?
They did it. They might not be some high noble but local gentry, so by that epoch standards avoiding the scandal while not killing or exiling anyone was pretty successful from the society point of view. And since Jesus was apparently also part of local gentry the scandal was avoided. Well if we go along that line i bet there was no scandal at all and Mary was just wed to Joseph quite conventionally and Jesus was concieved also pretty conventionally :)
They were kings?
Traditionally they are Magi i think, but also very often called and depicted as “kings” in catholicism at least. We just had 06.01 holiday of Epiphany, in Poland called “Święto Trzech Króli” (“Three Kings’ Day”) and it’s… a state holiday, free from work, if you ever had doubts how much modern Poland is secular state.
Well he once did send Engels (whoops, german version) angel to kill hundreds of thousands Assyrians
So if I read your posts right, the Hebrews coped and seethed so hard over getting their asses kicked repeatedly they made up stories about their imaginary friend genociding the ones who beat them? If so, that is a literally a cope of biblical proportions.
Well they did outlasted Assyrians so they had the last word.
Anyway that siege of Jerusalem did really happened, circa 701 BCE, Assyrians under king Sennaherib against Judeans of king Hezekiah. Unknown what happened, but the city was not captured. Most likely the besieging army suffered sudden and horrible plague (Herodotus also note the event, though he wrote about mice infestation) like bubonic plague or something like this. Judah was nominally vassalized and paid tribut but was not conquered. Also Assyrian army was no way 200000 strong, even 20000 was streching it.
Overall, it is pretty normal in those times to attribute sudden plague saving their skin (NeoAssyrian empire was not very merciful conqueror) to their god. Hell, a lot of Poles even said the same about victory over Soviets in 1920 and that battle was pretty good documented as genuine rational conclusion by even Soviets.
Assyrians perdured too, but they were culturally converted already into neo Babylonians, and then when the Persians came, the people regarded Cyrus the great like a hero, since it was the first emperor to abolish slavery since the conception of religion in the middle east.
There was also a sort of “super proto socialist” revolution in some Sumerian city-state, but it falled rapidly to Sargon of Akkad, tho. (If I remember well). Meaning that it was anecdotal.
Ah, and it was during the Zoroastrian(Persian) influence that the Hebrews started to bootleg monolatry.
Neo Assyrian empire were destroyed by Babylonians and culturally they were very similar at this point due to millenia of history they had with one another.
I don’t think there was any protosocialist revolution in Sumer, it was more or less the decay of primitive communism as the palace economy developed into full blown theocratic monarchy and this in the empire. I mean right before Sargon conquered Sumer, one of the local rulers (Lugal-zaggesi) managed to finally unite it and it would not be probably end since even his titulature suggest imperial ambitions, and he had at least one predecessor who did expanded beyond the Sumer. But alas we will never know, Sargon did to him what he probably wanted to do to Sargon, just faster.
Ah, and it was during the Zoroastrian(Persian) influence that the Hebrews started to bootleg monolatry.
I wonder how much influence that had, since Achaemenids weren’t pushing their religion on their subjects.
While I’m starting to remember what you said abour Sargon and all that as correct, the thing about Zoroastrians, is that they were in great consideration and loved and admired by a lot of people by their teachings, but never held a propagandístic teaching, and was ethnocentric,meaning that the responsibility of adoration was over the Persians themselves, but that salvation was universal, for Ahura Mazda would save everyone good enough, and who were not with redeeming qualities, sent to hell to purify themselves, and then go to Paradaija(the word Paradise is from Persian origin, yes), because the main perpetrator of wickedness is Angra Mainyu, the rest are victims (which, by the way, the notion we have of Satan is also copied from Angra, sincr Satan was literally just a god of judgement to see if people were actually good or not).
Ah, yes. Zoroastrianism is also escathologic, and wait for a savior born from a Virgin, without sin, to form an army to destroy Angra Mainyu once and for all, so Ahura Mazda can make the Earth into a paradise. Pretty much like Deutero Isaiah.
I mean… According to Romans, Yahweh was Bacchus, and even had commemorative coins of “Baccvs Iueus” kneeling, as a symbol of the deity admitting defeat.
Yeah Romans just looked at other religions, cathegorised their gods as versions of their own and called it a day. Pretty funny actually, even if very problematic for historiography.
Literally YES.
The Genesis 1 is a copy or Enuma Ellish.
Also, remember that the Yahwehist had to struggle to keep their people be under their influence, since we all know that a quick study shows how religions originate to maintain class submission since Mesopotamia, at least in the"West".
I mean it is pretty rational for war god to hate his people for constantly losing, but then why even worship him?
I guess to prove to him that they’re still worth something in some other way? As self-punishment for disappointing their deity?
We just had 06.01 holiday of Epiphany, in Poland called “Święto Trzech Króli” (“Three Kings’ Day”) and it’s… a state holiday, free from work, if you ever had doubts how much modern Poland is secular state.
What places were they kings of then? Also interesting that Kings would just show up on their own just to deliver gifts to a girl they know nothing about… unless, like I said, they were her simps. (But even then wouldn’t they just send their men instead? Just to keep their reputation from sullying)
Also, can’t complain about a free holiday. But that gets me thinking, did Jesus ever teach/preach about Ethnonationalism? It’s honestly mesmerizing that for a Christian Nation, its people would rather be dicks towards people that aren’t exactly 100% them.
Christianity, especially catholicism, is in fact the most syncretic religion in history full of things taken from pagan religions, and then put under the single hegemony. but it did immensely helped it spread and they did it even centuries later. In this case, read about resurrecting gods, there was many of them and especially Dionysus and Mithra were straight up competition for early christianity. If not for emperor Constantine, we might be as well discussing about Mithraism right now (which would be probably very much identical to christianity).
I guess to prove to him that they’re still worth something in some other way? As self-punishment for disappointing their deity?
Well, martyrdom and mortification is very popular in abrahamic religions for a reason.
What places were they kings of then?
Unspecified. It is mostly folk thing that became popular for no reason.
It’s honestly mesmerizing that for a Christian Nation, its people would rather be dicks towards people that aren’t exactly 100% them.
Problem is, you can take the Bible, and by creative quoting, you will get justification for basically anything.
Well… The kings/wizards thing we can assure never happened, like Herodes “killing of the innocent”.
And basically all the Jesus narrative neither, which is suspiciously simmilar to a lot of Hellenistic and not so Hellenistic heroes of ancient, about kings being rised in pastoral humility.
And… Well… Jesus himself was racist as fuck, and under the Christian visage, every non believer is like an animated corpse.
Oh, in Spain we have too the Kings’ Day too, which it’s the 5th(or 6th?) of January, and the eve is a parade of pseugo ancient parafernalia with horses and even sometimes camels, and like Santa Claus, they bring presents to children.
But I prefer our (Catalonia) originally pagan present bringer for children, i which on Christmas Eve, children give sweets to a log with legs, face and a barretina (a traditional hat), cover it with blanquets, wait for the “log to eat the sweets”, and then, congregate around the log and performing a BDSM ritual which consists in children beating the fuck out of the log while chanting “Tió, Tió, shit out nougat and presents”, and then, supposedly the log shits out presents and Christmas food.
Funnily enough in Poland nobody really fest that holiday. it was unremarkable and pretty much disappeared during the socialism era, even priests who traditionally made tours around their parishes around that time (“kolęda”) started to do it even month before.
So when the modern bourgeois government (liberal!) introduced it as state holiday in 2010 most people were kinda baffled why even, the resons were apparently to demostrate bootlicking of the church and pre-war fash Poland (a lot of stupid things and some catastrophical were done in post 1989 Poland from sole reason of “it was like there before the war”).
Of course free day is welcomed, nobody would argue that. Well except bourgeoisie who did, but our national bourgeoisie also bootlick church hierarchy so they only grumbled somewhat.
Tbh he was not harmless deity. Think more of a late antique Dionysos or Mithra, he was born, fought with his enemies, die and then be resurrected as many other antique gods which were ultimately hijacked to form the myth of the resurrection of Christ (this always seemed to me like loosely fitting magic addition put there to entice the pagans to join).
Well he once did send
Engels (whoops, german version)angel to kill hundreds of thousands Assyrians, but later he seems to cool off on that. I mean it is pretty rational for war god to hate his people for constantly losing, but then why even worship him? The Lost Tribes did exactly that i bet.They did it. They might not be some high noble but local gentry, so by that epoch standards avoiding the scandal while not killing or exiling anyone was pretty successful from the society point of view. And since Jesus was apparently also part of local gentry the scandal was avoided. Well if we go along that line i bet there was no scandal at all and Mary was just wed to Joseph quite conventionally and Jesus was concieved also pretty conventionally :)
Traditionally they are Magi i think, but also very often called and depicted as “kings” in catholicism at least. We just had 06.01 holiday of Epiphany, in Poland called “Święto Trzech Króli” (“Three Kings’ Day”) and it’s… a state holiday, free from work, if you ever had doubts how much modern Poland is secular state.
So if I read your posts right, the Hebrews coped and seethed so hard over getting their asses kicked repeatedly they made up stories about their imaginary friend genociding the ones who beat them? If so, that is a literally a cope of biblical proportions.
Well they did outlasted Assyrians so they had the last word.
Anyway that siege of Jerusalem did really happened, circa 701 BCE, Assyrians under king Sennaherib against Judeans of king Hezekiah. Unknown what happened, but the city was not captured. Most likely the besieging army suffered sudden and horrible plague (Herodotus also note the event, though he wrote about mice infestation) like bubonic plague or something like this. Judah was nominally vassalized and paid tribut but was not conquered. Also Assyrian army was no way 200000 strong, even 20000 was streching it.
Overall, it is pretty normal in those times to attribute sudden plague saving their skin (NeoAssyrian empire was not very merciful conqueror) to their god. Hell, a lot of Poles even said the same about victory over Soviets in 1920 and that battle was pretty good documented as genuine rational conclusion by even Soviets.
Assyrians perdured too, but they were culturally converted already into neo Babylonians, and then when the Persians came, the people regarded Cyrus the great like a hero, since it was the first emperor to abolish slavery since the conception of religion in the middle east. There was also a sort of “super proto socialist” revolution in some Sumerian city-state, but it falled rapidly to Sargon of Akkad, tho. (If I remember well). Meaning that it was anecdotal.
Ah, and it was during the Zoroastrian(Persian) influence that the Hebrews started to bootleg monolatry.
Neo Assyrian empire were destroyed by Babylonians and culturally they were very similar at this point due to millenia of history they had with one another.
I don’t think there was any protosocialist revolution in Sumer, it was more or less the decay of primitive communism as the palace economy developed into full blown theocratic monarchy and this in the empire. I mean right before Sargon conquered Sumer, one of the local rulers (Lugal-zaggesi) managed to finally unite it and it would not be probably end since even his titulature suggest imperial ambitions, and he had at least one predecessor who did expanded beyond the Sumer. But alas we will never know, Sargon did to him what he probably wanted to do to Sargon, just faster.
I wonder how much influence that had, since Achaemenids weren’t pushing their religion on their subjects.
While I’m starting to remember what you said abour Sargon and all that as correct, the thing about Zoroastrians, is that they were in great consideration and loved and admired by a lot of people by their teachings, but never held a propagandístic teaching, and was ethnocentric,meaning that the responsibility of adoration was over the Persians themselves, but that salvation was universal, for Ahura Mazda would save everyone good enough, and who were not with redeeming qualities, sent to hell to purify themselves, and then go to Paradaija(the word Paradise is from Persian origin, yes), because the main perpetrator of wickedness is Angra Mainyu, the rest are victims (which, by the way, the notion we have of Satan is also copied from Angra, sincr Satan was literally just a god of judgement to see if people were actually good or not).
Ah, yes. Zoroastrianism is also escathologic, and wait for a savior born from a Virgin, without sin, to form an army to destroy Angra Mainyu once and for all, so Ahura Mazda can make the Earth into a paradise. Pretty much like Deutero Isaiah.
Yeah basically every religion is more or less syncretic due to how culture generally work.
I mean… According to Romans, Yahweh was Bacchus, and even had commemorative coins of “Baccvs Iueus” kneeling, as a symbol of the deity admitting defeat.
Yeah Romans just looked at other religions, cathegorised their gods as versions of their own and called it a day. Pretty funny actually, even if very problematic for historiography.
Literally YES. The Genesis 1 is a copy or Enuma Ellish.
Also, remember that the Yahwehist had to struggle to keep their people be under their influence, since we all know that a quick study shows how religions originate to maintain class submission since Mesopotamia, at least in the"West".
Hijacked? How?
I guess to prove to him that they’re still worth something in some other way? As self-punishment for disappointing their deity?
What places were they kings of then?
Also interesting that Kings would just show up on their own just to deliver gifts to a girl they know nothing about… unless, like I said, they were her simps. (But even then wouldn’t they just send their men instead? Just to keep their reputation from sullying)Also, can’t complain about a free holiday. But that gets me thinking, did Jesus ever teach/preach about Ethnonationalism? It’s honestly mesmerizing that for a Christian Nation, its people would rather be dicks towards people that aren’t exactly 100% them.
Christianity, especially catholicism, is in fact the most syncretic religion in history full of things taken from pagan religions, and then put under the single hegemony. but it did immensely helped it spread and they did it even centuries later. In this case, read about resurrecting gods, there was many of them and especially Dionysus and Mithra were straight up competition for early christianity. If not for emperor Constantine, we might be as well discussing about Mithraism right now (which would be probably very much identical to christianity).
Well, martyrdom and mortification is very popular in abrahamic religions for a reason.
Unspecified. It is mostly folk thing that became popular for no reason.
Problem is, you can take the Bible, and by creative quoting, you will get justification for basically anything.
Well… The kings/wizards thing we can assure never happened, like Herodes “killing of the innocent”.
And basically all the Jesus narrative neither, which is suspiciously simmilar to a lot of Hellenistic and not so Hellenistic heroes of ancient, about kings being rised in pastoral humility.
And… Well… Jesus himself was racist as fuck, and under the Christian visage, every non believer is like an animated corpse.
Oh, in Spain we have too the Kings’ Day too, which it’s the 5th(or 6th?) of January, and the eve is a parade of pseugo ancient parafernalia with horses and even sometimes camels, and like Santa Claus, they bring presents to children.
But I prefer our (Catalonia) originally pagan present bringer for children, i which on Christmas Eve, children give sweets to a log with legs, face and a barretina (a traditional hat), cover it with blanquets, wait for the “log to eat the sweets”, and then, congregate around the log and performing a BDSM ritual which consists in children beating the fuck out of the log while chanting “Tió, Tió, shit out nougat and presents”, and then, supposedly the log shits out presents and Christmas food.
Ah, I love it.
Funnily enough in Poland nobody really fest that holiday. it was unremarkable and pretty much disappeared during the socialism era, even priests who traditionally made tours around their parishes around that time (“kolęda”) started to do it even month before.
So when the modern bourgeois government (liberal!) introduced it as state holiday in 2010 most people were kinda baffled why even, the resons were apparently to demostrate bootlicking of the church and pre-war fash Poland (a lot of stupid things and some catastrophical were done in post 1989 Poland from sole reason of “it was like there before the war”).
Of course free day is welcomed, nobody would argue that. Well except bourgeoisie who did, but our national bourgeoisie also bootlick church hierarchy so they only grumbled somewhat.
Oh, I see.