Do you know the actual truth of the Holodomor or Xinjiang? Are you willing to know?
Comrades who are jumping straight to retorting are unwittingly making it seem like, “well yes, there was a genocide, but it was worth it.” Please do not allow any gap in our response that allows this interpretation. There has never been a genocide committed by a socialist country and we should make it clear we will not cede that atrociously false accusation.
In the United States, for over a hundred years, the ruling interests tirelessly propagated anticommunism among the populace, until it became more like a religious orthodoxy than a political analysis. During the Cold War, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.
– Michael Parenti, Blackshirts And Reds
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Do you call the Dust Bowl and Great Depression a genocide? Words have meaning.
You love to present overdramatic accusations when a famine occurs in a socialist country, and there’s usually only one big one.
Edit: If you’re talking about something else, please elaborate as to your specific allegation. I asked you for a source earlier and you didn’t respond.
Edit 2: I stand corrected; I conflated you with a different user, but I’d still appreciate your source. Unfortunately, due to the lateness of this edit, the instance admins have already banned you, so I probably won’t find this out.
You didn’t ask me for shit earlier. This is my first comment here.
The Dust Bowl and Great Depression is a thing that happened. What occurred in Stalin’s reign is a pattern, that included famines. Were the famines specifically engineered to kill off specific groups? I don’t know. But when you take a holistic view, and look at executions, gulag assignments, forced resettlement, deportations, and, yes, famines, there was very clearly a genocide under Stalin.
Millions of people died as a direct result of Stalin’s policies and actions. I don’t know if they were all with intent, but many definitely were.
I don’t understand how anyone can defend Stalin. I guess people deny the Holocaust too, so there’s that.
Millions of people died as a direct result of Stalin’s policies and actions.
And the dust bowl was the direct result of the US governments policies and actions, so why is only one of them “a thing that happened,” you raging hypocrite?
Are you capable of reading and processing information? Nevermind that the Great Depression was a worldwide catastrophe. Nevermind that it’s thousands vs millions of people. Did you notice where I talked about the larger pattern in the USSR? There wasn’t just one famine, but a shitload of things causing the deaths of millions of people, many of which were fucking executions.
Are you capable of reading and processing information?
Are you?
Nevermind that the Great Depression was a worldwide catastrophe.
Point to where I mentioned the Great Depression.
Nevermind that it’s thousands vs millions of people.
What methodology did you use to determine your numbers? And why would it matter anyway? Is it not a genocide if it’s bellow a certain amount?
There wasn’t just one famine
Yes there was, unless you’re counting the one caused by the Nazis flattening half of it, in which case I’m just going to write you off as a Nazi apologist.
but a shitload of things causing the deaths of millions of people, many of which were fucking executions.
Yes, that is indeed true of the USA, so why is the Dust Bowl “Just a thing that happened”, but the famine that happened in the same time period in the USSR not?
Apologies for the confusing wording above. That’s because I was comparing two similar events to see if you would call it a genocide when the U.S. did it. If you did, I’d question your definition of genocide, but at least accept you’re applying it consistently.
I absolutely agree with you on that basic fact — the US has engaged in countless successful genocides against indigenous peoples.
Stalin, through his policies and leadership, killed millions of Soviet citizens.
False.
First of all, to attribute deaths solely to one individual (even to Hitler) denies anyone else responsible of their free will in doing so.
@ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml, would you mind holding this lib up to scrutiny since the one on Hexbear didn’t respond?
First of all, to attribute deaths solely to one individual (even to Hitler) denies anyone else responsible of their free will in doing so.
Fair, but this is just kind of a thing we do with language.
If we can’t agree that millions of people in the USSR were killed, sent to gulags, and died of famine during Stalin’s leadership, then I’m not sure there’s anything worth discussing.
Similarly, the article you linked about 7 million US deaths in the great depression doesn’t even take itself seriously. It’s just trying to discredit counts for deaths in the Holodomor. I suspect you don’t think that many people died as a result of the great depression, and, if you’re not going to argue in good faith, then again I believe we are at an impasse.
Finally, there is no need for name-calling. While I do not consider “lib” nearly as much an insult as you likely intend it, I would still not categorize myself as such.
if you’re not going to argue in good faith, then again I believe we are at an impasse.
Unfortunately, I’m suspecting that whatever your sources are similarly aren’t arguing in good faith, but since you won’t provide them, I can’t know for sure.
While I do not consider “lib” nearly as much an insult as you likely intend it, I would still not categorize myself as such.
I don’t intend it as an insult, but if you’re actually a socialist, I apologize. I hope though if you were, that you might consider that the US has a clear bias against socialism, so it’s pretty hard to consider it a trustworthy source on this matter at face value. There’s not a neutral party, but we should at least consider what the other side is saying instead of just blindly accepting the US government narrative.
It’s crazy - we all actually tend to agree on most things. We all sort of agree that the US government has committed atrocities, that wealth redistribution is what we should be striving for, that billionaires suck, that universal healthcare is good, all that good shit.
But they are stuck on the idea that their favorite governments can do no wrong.
“I agree that the U.S. is evil and has been the objective bad guy in every war it’s ever been in (and the US has almost never not been at war) but I believe the U.S. wholeheartedly in matters of foreign policy”
Of course they can do wrong. We acknowledge legitimate criticisms, but we’re going to refute slander against socialist governments.
I apologize for the bad terminology, but I’ll stick with it to answer your question. Even in WW2, the Soviets were the “good guys” and the US only intervened when it was obvious the Soviets would win to stop a communist Europe.
Got it. In any war, communists are “good”, everyone else is “meh” or “bad”. It’s real telling that you’ll call the Soviets the “good guys” but not any other European nations.
If the U.S. really cared about stopping Nazis, shouldn’t they have joined the war back in 1939? You also can’t possibly defend the two nuclear bombs on Japan (who was already ready to surrender) was anything other than to intimidate the USSR.
You’re jumping all over the place and it’s funny. Let’s go back to your earlier claim: “The US has been the bad guys in every war it’s been in”. Were the US the “bad guys” in WW2? Yes or no?
Not really; we have no problem with actual, reasonable, criticism of AES nations, we just have no time for “100 MILLION DEAD! AUTHORITARIANISM! GENOCIDE! REDFASCISM!” nonsense.
What genocide?
Do you know the actual truth of the Holodomor or Xinjiang? Are you willing to know?
Comrades who are jumping straight to retorting are unwittingly making it seem like, “well yes, there was a genocide, but it was worth it.” Please do not allow any gap in our response that allows this interpretation. There has never been a genocide committed by a socialist country and we should make it clear we will not cede that atrociously false accusation.
Agreed. Unfortunately, they didn’t respond to me, so they probably won’t respond to you.
I’ll hijack this comment to try to summon Parenti quote bot
The quote
– Michael Parenti, Blackshirts And Reds
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Your contention is that Stalin committed no genocide? What do you call it, sparkling ethnic cleansing?
Do you call the Dust Bowl and Great Depression a genocide? Words have meaning.
You love to present overdramatic accusations when a famine occurs in a socialist country, and there’s usually only one big one.
Edit: If you’re talking about something else, please elaborate as to your specific allegation.
I asked you for a source earlier and you didn’t respond.Edit 2: I stand corrected; I conflated you with a different user, but I’d still appreciate your source. Unfortunately, due to the lateness of this edit, the instance admins have already banned you, so I probably won’t find this out.
You didn’t ask me for shit earlier. This is my first comment here.
The Dust Bowl and Great Depression is a thing that happened. What occurred in Stalin’s reign is a pattern, that included famines. Were the famines specifically engineered to kill off specific groups? I don’t know. But when you take a holistic view, and look at executions, gulag assignments, forced resettlement, deportations, and, yes, famines, there was very clearly a genocide under Stalin.
Millions of people died as a direct result of Stalin’s policies and actions. I don’t know if they were all with intent, but many definitely were.
I don’t understand how anyone can defend Stalin. I guess people deny the Holocaust too, so there’s that.
By trying to paint the Soviet Union as genocidal, you are denying the Holocaust. Simple as.
Woof, that’s some leap.
A ‘leap’ made by literal jewish Holocaust scholars.
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
That’s right bark again you fucking lapdog for the establishment.
And the dust bowl was the direct result of the US governments policies and actions, so why is only one of them “a thing that happened,” you raging hypocrite?
Are you capable of reading and processing information? Nevermind that the Great Depression was a worldwide catastrophe. Nevermind that it’s thousands vs millions of people. Did you notice where I talked about the larger pattern in the USSR? There wasn’t just one famine, but a shitload of things causing the deaths of millions of people, many of which were fucking executions.
Are you?
Point to where I mentioned the Great Depression.
What methodology did you use to determine your numbers? And why would it matter anyway? Is it not a genocide if it’s bellow a certain amount?
Yes there was, unless you’re counting the one caused by the Nazis flattening half of it, in which case I’m just going to write you off as a Nazi apologist.
Yes, that is indeed true of the USA, so why is the Dust Bowl “Just a thing that happened”, but the famine that happened in the same time period in the USSR not?
I’m all ears, buddy. Paint me the picture of this dust bowl genocide. My mind is open. Convince me.
You know that picture you paint of the holodomer? it’s literally just that, but the USA.
Prisoners in the United States jumped from 120,284 in 1923 to 210,418 in 1933. (Source (p. 210))
Executions increased to 197, the highest number in US history, in 1935. (Source)
The U.S. forcibly deported one million of its own citizens to Mexico in the 1930s. Source
Since you’re probably using an intentionally ridiculous US estimate, I’ll use an intentionally ridiculous Russian estimate and say that seven million people died from the Great Depression. This Russian estimate uses the same intentionally ridiculous methodology of the U.S. one.
Put together, why isn’t this enough to declare that a genocide happened in the U.S.?
Nice whataboutism. But fuck it, I’ll bite. A genocide has absolutely happened in the US, funny that you didn’t hit on it.
Let’s play a game. I’m going to call it, “can we agree on some basic facts?”
Stalin, through his policies and leadership, killed millions of Soviet citizens. True or false?
Apologies for the confusing wording above. That’s because I was comparing two similar events to see if you would call it a genocide when the U.S. did it. If you did, I’d question your definition of genocide, but at least accept you’re applying it consistently.
I absolutely agree with you on that basic fact — the US has engaged in countless successful genocides against indigenous peoples.
False.
First of all, to attribute deaths solely to one individual (even to Hitler) denies anyone else responsible of their free will in doing so.
@ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml, would you mind holding this lib up to scrutiny since the one on Hexbear didn’t respond?
I’m okay. Sorry.
Fair, but this is just kind of a thing we do with language.
If we can’t agree that millions of people in the USSR were killed, sent to gulags, and died of famine during Stalin’s leadership, then I’m not sure there’s anything worth discussing.
Similarly, the article you linked about 7 million US deaths in the great depression doesn’t even take itself seriously. It’s just trying to discredit counts for deaths in the Holodomor. I suspect you don’t think that many people died as a result of the great depression, and, if you’re not going to argue in good faith, then again I believe we are at an impasse.
Finally, there is no need for name-calling. While I do not consider “lib” nearly as much an insult as you likely intend it, I would still not categorize myself as such.
Can we agree that millions of people in the USA were killed, sent to gulags, and died of famine during FDR’s leadership?
And do you think that people died during the Holodomor?
Unfortunately, I’m suspecting that whatever your sources are similarly aren’t arguing in good faith, but since you won’t provide them, I can’t know for sure.
I don’t intend it as an insult, but if you’re actually a socialist, I apologize. I hope though if you were, that you might consider that the US has a clear bias against socialism, so it’s pretty hard to consider it a trustworthy source on this matter at face value. There’s not a neutral party, but we should at least consider what the other side is saying instead of just blindly accepting the US government narrative.
So you’re denying genocide now.
Sorry what?
The line I quoted; it’s you denying genocide.
It’s crazy - we all actually tend to agree on most things. We all sort of agree that the US government has committed atrocities, that wealth redistribution is what we should be striving for, that billionaires suck, that universal healthcare is good, all that good shit.
But they are stuck on the idea that their favorite governments can do no wrong.
“I agree that the U.S. is evil and has been the objective bad guy in every war it’s ever been in (and the US has almost never not been at war) but I believe the U.S. wholeheartedly in matters of foreign policy”
Of course they can do wrong. We acknowledge legitimate criticisms, but we’re going to refute slander against socialist governments.
I trust international investigation and evidence uncovered by reputable journalists.
If a country refuses to allow international investigators to do their job, that is a significant red flag.
Are you talking about when the I.C.C. was sanctioned by the U.S. for investigation of Afghanistan war crimes?
If you compartmentalize counties in war to “good guys” and “bad guys”, you’re really going to claim that the US was the bad guy in WW2?
I apologize for the bad terminology, but I’ll stick with it to answer your question. Even in WW2, the Soviets were the “good guys” and the US only intervened when it was obvious the Soviets would win to stop a communist Europe.
Got it. In any war, communists are “good”, everyone else is “meh” or “bad”. It’s real telling that you’ll call the Soviets the “good guys” but not any other European nations.
If the U.S. really cared about stopping Nazis, shouldn’t they have joined the war back in 1939? You also can’t possibly defend the two nuclear bombs on Japan (who was already ready to surrender) was anything other than to intimidate the USSR.
You’re jumping all over the place and it’s funny. Let’s go back to your earlier claim: “The US has been the bad guys in every war it’s been in”. Were the US the “bad guys” in WW2? Yes or no?
Yes
In general, communists are good and everyone else is meh or bad, not just war.
Not really; we have no problem with actual, reasonable, criticism of AES nations, we just have no time for “100 MILLION DEAD! AUTHORITARIANISM! GENOCIDE! REDFASCISM!” nonsense.