Who you agree with more? Kollontai’s Glass of Water theory or Zalkind’s Twelve Sexual Commandments of the Revolutionary Proletariat? Were they good for 1920s-1930s Soviet Union? What about current implementations, which one would you lean closer to and why?

    • @cfgaussian
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      41 year ago

      For what it’s worth, Lenin calls the “Glass of Water” theory “completely un-Marxist”: https://www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1920/lenin/zetkin1.htm

      I think he comes off as a bit of a prude in this. Maybe Kollontai sometimes goes a little too far but on the whole I think she has a much more progressive position on the topic of sex than Lenin does.

  • @cfgaussian
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    51 year ago

    Could you elaborate on those theories or provide sources where one can read about them?

    • @smrtfasizmu
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      71 year ago

      Here are the 12 commandments:

      1. Sexual life shall not develop too early among the proletariat.

      2. Thou shalt exercise sexual restraint until marriage, and marriage shall take place only upon full social and biological maturity (20-25 years).

      3. Sexual relations shall be the culmination of a deep and comprehensive sympathy and attachment to the object of thy sexual love.

      4. The sexual act shall be the final link in a chain of deep and complex experiences binding the lovers together at that moment.

      5. The sexual act shall not be repeated often.

      6. Thou shalt not often change thy sexual object. There shall be less sexual variation.

      7. Love shall be monogamous and monoandrous (one wife, one husband).

      8. Every sexual act must be committed without forgetting the possibility of conceiving a child – thou shalt always remember thy progeny.

      9. Sexual selection shall always be conducted along the lines of revolutionary-proletarian class objectives. Elements of flirtation, skirt-chasing, coquetry, and other particular methods of sexual conquest must not be introduced into love relations.

      10. Thou shalt not be jealous.

      11. Thou shalt not engage in sexual perversions.

      12. In the interest of revolutionary expedience, class shall have the right to interfere in the sexual life of its co-members; the sexual shall always be subordinate to class interests, never interfering with the latter, but shall always serve it.

      • @cfgaussian
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        101 year ago

        Sounds like it was written by a medieval monk.

      • @CannotSleep420
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        71 year ago

        Sexual selection shall always be conducted along the lines of revolutionary-proletarian class objectives.

        Maybe this sounds better in context, but this comes across as proletarian eugenics. What did Zalkind mean by this?

        • @alligatorturtlesnailOP
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          41 year ago

          https://lemmygrad.ml/post/574021 IX. Sexual selection must be along the lines of class, revolutionary-proletarian expediency. Elements of flirtation, courtship, coquetry, and other methods of specifically sexual conquest must not be introduced into love relationships.

          Sexuality is seen by the class as a social function and not as a narrowly personal one, and therefore it is social, class virtues, and not specific physiological-sex lures, which are in the vast majority either a relic of our pre-cultural condition or developed as a result of the rotten effects of exploitative living conditions, that should attract and win in love life. The sex drive itself is biologically strong enough that there is no need to excite it with additional special methods.

          Since the revolutionary class, which saves all of mankind from destruction, has exclusively eugenic tasks in its sexual life, that is, the task of the revolutionary-communist recovery of mankind through progeny, obviously it is not those traits of class-less “beauty,” “femininity,” and grossly “muscular” and “mustached” masculinity, which have little place and are of little use under the conditions of industrialized, intellectualized, socialized humanity, that should reveal themselves as the strongest sexual stimuli.

          The modern human fighter must be distinguished by a subtle and precise intellectual apparatus, a great deal of social flexibility and sensitivity, class courage and firmness, whether male or female. The powerless, fragile “femininity,” which is the product of thousands of years of servitude to women and at the same time the only supplier of material for coquetry and flirtation; Just as the “mustachioed,” “muscular-boned” masculinity, more necessary for a professional loader or a knight of the pre-armed period than for the dodgy and technically educated modern revolutionary,-all these traits, of course, correspond minimally to the needs of revolution and revolutionary sexual selection. The notion of beauty and health is now being radically reconsidered by the fighting class in terms of class expediency, and the class-futile so-called “beauty” and the so-called “strength” of the exploitative period of human history will inevitably be pulverized by bodily combinations of the best revolutionary device, the most productive revolutionary expediency.

          It is not without reason that the ideals of beauty and power differ deeply in various social strata, and that the aesthetics of the bourgeoisie, the aesthetics of the bourgeois intelligentsia, are far from appealing to the proletariat. But the proletariat does not yet have its own aesthetics; it is in the process of its victorious class struggle, and, therefore, it would be a terrible mistake on its way to forming the methods of new class sex selection to use the old, putrefied methods of sex enticement, as far as their class validity is concerned. What will the offspring be like in class terms, created by parents whose main virtues, which were the main sexual stimulants, were: the powerless and coquettishly lively femininity of the mother and the “broad-shouldered muscularity” of the father? Revolution, of course, is not against broad shoulders, but it is not by them that it ultimately wins, and it is not on them that revolutionary sexual selection should be built at its core. The powerless fragility of women is of no use to it at all: economically and politically, that is, physiologically, the woman of the modern proletariat must approach, and is increasingly approaching, the man. It is necessary to achieve that harmonious combination of physical health and class creative values which is most expedient from the point of view of the interests of the revolutionary struggle of the proletariat. The embodiment of this combination will be the ideal of proletarian sexual selection.

          The basic class-values should be the basic sex-bait, and only on them will the sex-union be built in the future. It is not without reason that not only the concept of beauty, but also the concept of the physiological norm, is currently the subject of such passionate scientific discussion.

      • @boston_key_party
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        51 year ago

        I’m an antitheist in no small part to prevent this type of person from wielding power.

      • @nour
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        31 year ago

        Interesting. Did Zalkind write anything about the reasons for these specific commandments, or did she only posit them without giving a reason?

        • @smrtfasizmu
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          41 year ago

          This is what I got from some light googling:

          “A. B. Zalkind attached great importance to the sexual question in issues of the hygiene of party work. He believed that modern man in everyday life suffers from sexual fetishism, which should be overcome with the help of science and that sex should be returned to the right track: “It is necessary that the collective is more attracted to itself than to a love partner.” It was in this way that The Twelve Sexual Commandments of the Revolutionary Proletariat were born. The general meaning of these sexual commandments was to ensure that the energy of the proletariat, as an integral class, was not wasted on sexual relations that are useless for its historical mission.”

          • @nour
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            1 year ago

            Very interesting, thank you for the additional information. Turns out he is a different Zalkind than the one I found when I tried to search the name.

            Judging from that last article, I can see how the commandments made sense in the context of the time period they were written in. But I don’t believe it would be of advantage to strictly enforce these in the current society I live in, as the issues we are dealing with are different, and it would alienate many people without a significant improvement in productivity. Though, it is true that excessive sexual relations can be a distraction and damage the cohesion of the collective… But also, I think having a sexuality before 20-25 years is natural, and it’s better if they can live it in a healthy way, considering the evidence that making young people abstain before marriage either doesn’t work or results in marriages with unhealthy dynamics…

            (Once again, just my opinion. I haven’t extensively researched this topic.)

    • @alligatorturtlesnailOP
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      1 year ago

      Someone just posted the abbreviated version, but the full version is only in Russian (as far as I know). I posted a DeepL translation here: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/574021

      Here is also a article about the writer, also translated with DeepL: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/574022

      And a English article on Soviet Union’s 1920s sexual revolution and eventual pull back, turning more to Zalkind’s position: https://www.rbth.com/history/328265-russian-sexual-revolution

    • @redtea
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      51 year ago

      Sex should be as easy as drinking a glass of water. That’s Kollontai. I’m unsure about Zalkind’s commandments.

  • QueerCommie
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    01 year ago

    The commandments seem somewhat reasonable, but it would be reactionary to rigidly enforce it. The other just seems kind of absurd, and as someone mentioned, it’s doubtful Kollontai actually said that.