I’ve heard this claim make the rounds, but I’m pretty sure there’s more to this concept, or rather misconception, than it seems?

I do not wish to ask in bad faith.

I mean, even if this were true, I wouldn’t support the settler state in the Middle East, and its crafted mythology…

  • GlueBear [they/them]
    11·
    2 months ago

    Not Jewish, but commenting to bump the thread.

    Another question I’d like to pose: what do Zionist Jews who don’t believe in God use to justify their colonialism?

    • Commissar of Antifa
      11·
      2 months ago

      The early Zionists were secular and just said they were “civilizing” part of Asia and creating “an outpost of Europe in Asia.

    • Anarcho-BolshevikEnglish
      10·
      2 months ago

      It flatters me when others mistake me for being Jewish! But to answer your question, diaspora Judaists are not supposed to all return to the land of Israel or Palestine until their messiah comes, and even then, they must never seize the land by force. Anticolonial Judaists can explain this well:

      Nowadays, during Exile, even according to the Ramban there is no obligation on all Jews to go and live in Eretz Yisroel, because if they were to do so it would be violating the Three Oaths. The Oaths are:

      1. The Jewish people may not go up en masse to take over Eretz Yisroel.
      2. They may not fight with the nations of the world.
      3. They may not attempt to force an end to the exile and bring the redemption on their own. (Kesubos 111a.)

      Individual Jews may live in Eretz Yisroel, but not as part of any organized effort to control the land. When the Ramban says the mitzvah applies in all generations, he means that one who lives there fulfills this mitzvah, not that there is an obligation to go and live there. (See Igros Moshe Even Hoezer 1:102.)

      Now we come to your question: it is forbidden to fight against gentiles who wish to control Eretz Yisroel. It was forbidden for the Jews to take it away from the gentiles in the first place. Our refusal to fight in the [IOF] is not because we want to rely on others, but because we object on principle to any Jewish control over the land, even if all the Jews were religiously observant.

      It is true that the gentiles who wish to control Eretz Yisroel might pose a physical threat to the Jewish population. The solution is for us to find safer places to live, not to remain there and fight them, which is a serious violation of Jewish law.

      As for why Jewish Zionists disagree, I suspect that it has to do with poor education or maybe even willful misunderstandings on their part. For example, referring to an ancient struggle to justify modern conquest, omitting vast sections of context in the process as if the ancient context and the modern one were identical. The land of Israel has certainly fallen to nasty conquerors before, but Palestinians aren’t one of them.

      I recommend consulting @AYJANIBRAHIMOV@lemmygrad.ml for subjects like this one. He is a Judaist.