• robot_dog_with_gun [they/them]@hexbear.net
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    2
    arrow-down
    8
    ·
    1 year ago

    I’m saying nations under genocidal conditions are going to have kids because they want their society to continue, i

    and those kids grow up where, under what conditions? My childhood wasn’t nearly as shitty as what palestinians are made to endure and decades on I would still have rather been an abortion. it is out of compassion for their suffering that i suggest having kids in dire circumstances is immoral because of what you’re knowingly forcing someone to live through.

    Do you shame, pity them for having more kids?

    i feel bad for the people who have to live that life. i feel bad for parents who didn’t have the right to choose. i endorse the destruction of the oppressor state and the (trial if you have enough stability to have them) execution of the perpetrators of apartheid and genocide.

    Why should they let Israel succeed in killing the idea of Palestinians?

    why is the idea of some cultural group worth the suffering of my children? Oppressed people have a morally righteous fight against our oppressors, but condemning another person to live under that oppression is not righteous.

    people are people and if i can choose not to condemn someone to a life of suffering why should I value a group identity over my child’s quality of life? I wouldn’t subject a child to life here and we even have running water.

    no hedonistic pleasures or satisfaction from achievement could make my torture worthwhile, how the fuck is it OK to subject someone to far worse than what i’ve had?

    • Kaffe
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      8
      ·
      1 year ago

      This is clearly the words of someone who has no community or culture to cling to, one born nation-less and with a position to lose. For me contributing to my community in what’s necessary of me benefits everyone and all children. For colonized peoples there is a collective worth protecting as it protects ourselves as individuals.

      It’s honestly sounding like you have internalized individualism. Like I said it’s fine to not want children and to not have them, but know that people having children is necessary for your survival, and you have a role to play in the survival of their children.

      Everyone has a role to play as we are social beings. Our society as structured alienates us from the benefits of socialized production but these conditions are definite and mutable. Have some revolutionary optimism.

      • porcupine
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        I’ll put it bluntly because there’s a lot of assumptions that are easy to make when you’re talking in English on a primarily American platform, and maybe there’s some misunderstanding about the conditions people in this conversation are actually living in:

        If you’re a white American, you have no culture or nation worth reproducing or clinging to. If you’re a white American and you believe that you, your children, and your fellow enlightened settler whites will usher in a revolution in the United States of America in your lifetime: that’s not revolutionary optimism, it’s delusional cosplay. The only revolutionary role that a white settler can play on colonized land is to betray his fellow settlers and work toward the destruction of their empire. Communism will be built on the grave of this empire by those who come after.

        • Kaffe
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          9
          ·
          1 year ago

          I’ve written in my comments that my people are colonized and subject to genocide, I’m not a white settler, I’m Black. I understand the outlook that settlers have a false nation unworthy of upholding, I agree, but I do not think they need to be stripped of living their lives as human beings in the manner they choose as long as it fits the framework of Decolonization.

          I comment on my predictions and expectations of settlers a lot, this time I’m on the optimistic side that we’d hope for more settlers to be deeply concerned about the future generations. It’s fucked up for settlers to come here, trash the place, and when it comes time to clean up they’d rather die out than join the multi generational effort to fix this place. We don’t plan for their help but it would be a quicker process with more hands. 🤷🏽‍♀️

          Decolonization also means restoring the humanity of the colonizers.

          Albeit not peacefully 😏

          • porcupine
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            7
            ·
            1 year ago

            My apologies then, for approaching your comments without the appropriate context in mind. I don’t mean to suggest that I think settlers have no responsibility to the future (I haven’t killed myself after all). I hope to do everything I can to leave a better world for other people’s kids than my parents left for me. Without getting too deep into personal detail, my parents come from generations of white American evangelicals. My parents’ decision to have kids was not a net positive for the world or for their kids. If I ever unexpectedly find myself with the means to provide a decent life for someone beyond my own immediate survival, I’ll consider adopting.

      • robot_dog_with_gun [they/them]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        It’s honestly sounding like you have internalized individualism. Like I said it’s fine to not want children and to not have them, but know that people having children is necessary for your survival, and you have a role to play in the survival of their children.

        if other people putting children in harm’s way is necessary for my survival then i would prefer not to survive and for the cycle of suffering to end with me. there’s no social unit worth damning generations of children to lifetimes of suffering and bitter struggle.

        Have some revolutionary optimism.

        fight now and maybe having a kid later won’t be equivalent to putting them through hell, but in the meantime we have no moral standing for conscription.

    • QueerCommieM
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      6
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      “Just give up to genocide already, it will hurt less in the long term.”

        • QueerCommieM
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          So you just think colonized colonized people should just collectively choose to end their own cultures and stop existing?

          • robot_dog_with_gun [they/them]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            i think that oppressed people should fight back against their oppression but we do not have the right to bring children into dire circumstances and conscript them into a fight they did not and could not consent to.

            If a monster is beating down your door and you can’t defeat it on your own you shouldn’t push a kid into its jaws. The monster should stop, but it won’t. The other villages should come make the monster stop but they won’t. Feeding more children to the monster is not in line with any of our other morals.

            • QueerCommieM
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              1 year ago

              So if a genocide can’t be stopped in a generation give up?

                • QueerCommieM
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  I’m not defending conscription of children. I’m defending colonized people’s right to continue having children as both an act of resistance and a way to further your own culture rather than giving up to the genociders. Your argument implies Palestinians and First Nations people are morally wrong for having children as they are actively genocided.

                  • robot_dog_with_gun [they/them]@hexbear.net
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    2
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    . I’m defending colonized people’s right to continue having children as both an act of resistance and a way to further your own culture

                    what right does someone have to make someone else’s life their act of resistance? how is that not literally conscription?