Funny, my grandfathers used to kill Nazis.
You know how “If you see someone stealing food, no you didn’t”?
If you’re on a jury where the defendant is accused of killing a Nazi, not guilty. Jury nullification.
I hadn’t heard that first one before, but ok, sure.
Well, now you know. If you see anyone shoplifting food, no you didn’t
I agree with that adage, but, as I live in America, if I see someone stealing anything, no I didn’t because I don’t want to get shot.
What about stealing baby food to resell in China?
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Are you going to stop the person and ask that? Because there’s no way you’d know. It’s far better to just let a potential parent get food for their kids
I’m not going to ask because I don’t give a shit about a company losing profits.
Maybe I’m slow but what exactly is your point then?
Some family traditions should be upheld.
Which is the only proper way to deal with them.
We didn’t go far enough the first time and look where that got us. Let’s do.it right this time
Sure; in one view, the free folk should have kept going on past Berlin after liberating Germany from Hitler … and liberated Poland, Ukraine, and Russia from Stalin’s rapists. Then maybe Russians wouldn’t still be getting murdered by their government today.
However, the genocidal rape-murder-fanatics who called themselves Nazis were a clearer target than the genocidal rape-murder-fanatics who (falsely) called themselves Marxists.
The solution would have been not placing “former” Nazis in positions of power after the war.
That would be good too, yeah.
Notably, it woulda been nice if the occupying powers had focused on permanently removing the “former” Nazis rather than starving the German populace as collective punishment.
That’s not how we do things here. We generally use crippling sanctions that punish people, mostly poor people , while also trying to find a back room deal or overthrow legally elected governments.
“free folk” is a weird way to describe the US/UK/etc., given what civil rights in those places were like at the time, and the fact that the US now has the highest incarceration rate of anywhere in the world (and a prison system that kills a higher percentage of prisoners than the gulags in the USSR did).
what’s your evidence that
a) the US got involved in the second world war for any reason other than to fight communism (US businesses continued to trade with the Nazi regime right until the end of the war),
b) that the US had any capacity to push further east than they did,
c) that anyone in the USSR wanted their “liberation” (polls in all of the places you mentioned had huge support for the USSR all the way to its dissolution, and even the CIA admits that calling Stalin a “dictator” was misleading propaganda
a) the US got involved in the second world war for any reason other than to fight communism
Lmao what
The US got involved because Japan attacked the US. At no point in WW2 did the US every fight against communists. They allied with communists - and they literally referred to themselves as the Allies
??? The USA could of absolutely kept pushing east but didn’t because it still had all of its forces divided on 2 fronts. If you count just the European theatre, yeah Russia had more tanks and men but they were also being supplied by the Americans. Americans stop supplying war material and SU has to scramble to fill the voids ala now in Ukraine “Special Operation” war. Would it have been a slam dunk easy victory? Absolutely not, but considering the state of everyone’s shit like factories, useable materials, and population loss, America comes out on top every time. If America had attacked the Russians afterwards there is a real possibility the Soviet Union collapses just under its own population drain. By the end of the war SU lost an estimated 8-10 million soldiers and an estimated 24 million civilians. Not to mention having their future soldiers grow up on malnutrition diets. America had also been full steam ahead war manufacturing shit for 5+ years at that point while the SU barely got its factories back up in 42/43 from the initial Nazi invasion.
I’d love to see your evidence though that American Companies kept trading with Germany after the attack at pearl harbor and the subsequent declaration of war by Germany in 1941.
As to the ability to push east, don’t forget we were also pushing west, and why we decided to stop. If we hadn’t, allied forces surely could have pushed until they met.
They did push until they met.
You should take after him
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Not to be a grammar Nazi but we gave him and his friends parades for doing so
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It may be time to learn the family trade
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we really need to become intolerant of intolerance in this country
This is Florida. I’m surprised no one has shot them or run them over already. No one likes Nazis
I don’t know that the state that elected Ron DeSantis as their governor is especially intolerant of Nazis.
He barely won. 8 million odd votes cast, he won by 30,000. Had to suppress votes and lie constantly to do it.
Well no one in Florida seems to be stopping them so maybe Floridians do like Nazis? I mean they elected Ron DeSantis…
Florida is a bastion of progressive thought…(suppression).
Except about 30% of the US. They don’t like Nazis by name, but they sure are buddy buddy with them
spoiler alert: the people who would shoot and run people over are also right wing extremists. Same reason no cops showed up to stop these Nazi’s, it’s the same people.
The only thing a tolerant society can’t tolerate is intolerance. Nazis have no place on American land and either need to be driven from it or buried in it.
Tolerance is an agreement, not a suicide pact. If someone refuses to abide by the terms of tolerance, then they have no right to be protected by it.
If someone refuses to abide by the terms of tolerance, then they have no right to be protected by it.
Yes. Although it’s correct to point to Popper’s paradox of tolerance, it’s better to regard tolerance to be the terms of the contract that provides your rights and protections. Oh, you want to void someone’s rights? Don’t expect the protections of the contract if you’re in breach of its terms.
This (treat it like a contract, or like a treaty) doesn’t just avoid the mind-boggling that some people experience trying to get their heads around a paradox, it provides tools by which to restore a broken peace.
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What does greater punishment have to do with a threat to society?
Harsh penal systems cause more crime.
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Only persue suppression if they ignore logic and use force as an argument.
Is that not exactly where we are right now?
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Tal with them.
Groups like that typically have a core with a number of insane leaders they just have to be locked up, key thrown away, but most of the people around it are just… well, lost, really. These are people that really feel they’re thr good guy, trying to protect from what they’ve been taught is evil.
Show then they’re wrong. Show them that the evil doesn’t really exist but in their heads. You can talk with them, at least TRY to reason with them…
You can’t use reason to convince someone out of a position they didn’t reason their way into… I agree that should still be the first step, but I wouldn’t expect it to work for the majority of them. Cognitive dissonance is a removed to overcome, especially if they aren’t willing to accept the possibility they might be wrong.
What’s the alternative?
Jail them? Forever? If not, one day they’ll be free and angrier than ever.
Deport them? Where?
Ignore them? That doesn’t sound like a good idea either
The only real solution I see is reason with them. It’ll be hard, it’ll be stupid, bit I don’t see ma y other solutions
You know, I’m generally willing to let everyone share their opinions even if they’re awful, but I feel like if you’re proudly waving a nazi flag you should be shot in the face. Stop wasting oxygen on those scum.
willing to let everyone share their opinions even if they’re awful
The question always should be: “Will they show the same courtesy for you?”
And the answer with Nazis is “no”, obviously. They’re willing to use the democratic process to rise to power. Five minutes later they’ll kill it off.
I feel the same way. I’m tolerant of many different opinions. Basically, as long as you’re not hurting yourself or other people, go for it.
But when someone calls for the death of someone else, I draw the line. I’m Jewish and, sadly, dealt with Nazis before. Back in high school (about 30 years ago), I started talking with a kid. This kid (unbeknownst to me when we started talking) worshipped Hitler. He told me outright “the only thing Hitler did wrong was not finishing the job.” Yes, the kid knew I’m Jewish and no he wasn’t "just being edgy.
Now, I’ve always been an easy going person. I’m not prone to violence at all. However, when this kid essentially told me that my family and I should be killed, I lost it. A friend of mine had to hold me back because I was going to punch Nazi kid in his face.
Unfortunately, these people fell comfortable being open about their Nazi views. That’s because the Republicans have decided to drop all dogwhistles and fully support the bigots of the country in their goal of oppressing anyone even slightly different.
See a nazi, punch a nazi
Culture Warlords: My Journey Into the Dark Web of White Supremacy
Talia Lavin is every skinhead’s worst nightmare: a loud and unapologetic Jewish woman, acerbic, smart, and profoundly antiracist, with the investigative chops to expose the tactics and ideologies of online hatemongers. Culture Warlords is the story of how Lavin, a frequent target of extremist trolls (including those at Fox News), dove into a byzantine online culture of hate and learned the intricacies of how white supremacy proliferates online.
I had already purchased this book after hearing a podcast interview. Then, I heard another interview where Talia stood her ground against some kinda shitty interview tactics by Brianna Grey Joy and realized, oh, I have that book, and I immediately started reading it. It was excellent.
Shitty podcast interview (which is excellent because of Talia and shitty because of Brianna)
here(I tried to find a link to the audio podcast, but it was a pita. You can see part of it on a YouTube link or look for the true audio from Sept 2021 by loading the RSS of the Bad Faith podcast.).I won’t thump my chest. I fear violence. But violence is called for and justified regarding these pieces of shit. I’m posting this twice because I want it to be in the main thread and because I’m responding to the Talia-method: see => punch
I’d like to say I’m surprised that Grey asked a Jewish woman if she learned anything useful for building coalitions with white supremacists and Nazis… but I’m not. A certain section of the terminally online left seems convinced that all bigotry and supremacy is “economic anxiety”, and if you propose good economic policies then Nazis will be cured.
Come at me people but I think if you are a neonazi then life in prison would suit you well.
Oh lord. “The order of the black sun”, “the hammer”, “blood tribe”… it’s all edgy manchildren, ain’t it?
Perhaps something ought to be done while they’re gathered in the same place?
I find it so weird that fascists pick such obvious comic book villain names for their groups.
Like, they have to know.
They do, but their minds are so stunted they think it’s cool.
They like to pretend they’re tough. They’re really into their LARP.
Who else would it be?
Why are they even wearing full face masks?
I thought they can’t breathe tho.
That’s only if you wear a mask to prevent a deadly viral infection from spreading. Apparently, masks are perfectly safe if you’re using them to prevent yourself from being identified when you publicly proclaim your extreme bigotry.
Because they’re cowards.
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And what to be responsible fellow citizens and set a good example for the rest of us
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Take off the masks, cowards.
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So Nazis are good because they don’t loot?
They haven’t gotten to looting yet.
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You mean what the vast, vast majority of BLM protesters didn’t do?
Maybe don’t focus on what the media chose to show you with camera angles and editing.
They are still subscribing to Nizism, one of the only pure evil ideologies
What have the good people of Niza, Croatia ever done to you?
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This is really fucked up. These people’s grandparents will be rolling in their graves, wanting to strangle their descendants.
Hopefully they get that chance soon
In the afterlife? Yes.
Pussy ass removed have to wear masks. We should just follow them home and post their addresses
I’d like to think that when people in the center and on the left look at stories like this they realize how little our differences are compared to the lunatics on the right. I’d love to see liberals and centrisfs finally fall in-line and combine to fight these fascist fucks, but then I wake up and realize it will never happen.
the american liberals are mostly conservatives by european standards and the centrists are right wing populists. Then you got the fascists, that are the republican party nowadays.
Noone of them will see a risk in the rise of fascist violence, until it will be their family that will be murdered.
Why don’t people realize we aren’t kidding around? The GOP is being lead by fascists. It’s going to be 10 years from now and people are going to say, “if we only knew!”
the american liberals are mostly conservatives by european standards
Where does this fall on the spectrum by European standards?
Conservatives by European standards have nothing in common with liberals in the US unless you are solely talking about, like, Norway.
Spain, Italy, Hungary, Turkey, Germany, France and more all have Conservative parties that are vastly different from and opposed to American liberals.
The centrists are the liberals. The Rep party and most “centrists” are now fascist and fascist-tolerating. There are many people who aren’t outwardly bigoted or authoritarian and only care about a few issues such as abortion (religious people), guns (rural people), or taxes (higher income people). These people will vote on these issues and tolerate any amount of bigotry and fascism as long as they don’t think it will affect them.
Care to point out any lib fascists?
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You literally just slapped “pro-fascist” on the first one with 0 actual evidence
#2 is a grey point that of course can be argued any which way. (Classic)
You’d think if this was a strong point you’d have some better examples :)
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The mental gymnastics lmfao.
Taking away the ability of the government to control a public option = fascism because people made money off it.
The word you’re looking for is capitalist pig and I agree with you.
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What shows?
Who wanted more conservative voices? Why is that fascist?
Why is (yet again) capitalism being equated directly to fascism.
I just think you like saying that word tbh. May I ask what age demographic you’re in by chance?
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Conservative talk radio predates Clinton by over 2 decades, and is what led to the rise in Trumpism.
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I got permabanned from Reddit for saying the only good nazi is a dead nazi.
This take holds no water
These removed have no idea what they’re playing with. They should visit WWII memorials or concentration camps. What a sad, sad sight
Yeah. I think treating them the way nazis did for a few months would change them. And if they die suring it then they die.
Is this a new, new wave?
It’s the old new wave with a fresh coat of paint.
Culture Warlords: My Journey Into the Dark Web of White Supremacy
Talia Lavin is every skinhead’s worst nightmare: a loud and unapologetic Jewish woman, acerbic, smart, and profoundly antiracist, with the investigative chops to expose the tactics and ideologies of online hatemongers. Culture Warlords is the story of how Lavin, a frequent target of extremist trolls (including those at Fox News), dove into a byzantine online culture of hate and learned the intricacies of how white supremacy proliferates online.
I had already purchased this book after hearing a podcast interview. Then, I heard another interview where Talia stood her ground against some kinda shitty interview tactics by Brianna Grey Joy and realized, oh, I have that book, and I immediately started reading it. It was excellent.
Shitty podcast interview (which is excellent because of Talia and shitty because of Brianna)
here(I tried to find a link to the audio podcast, but it was a pita. You can see part of it on a YouTube link or look for the true audio from Sept 2021 by loading the RSS of the Bad Faith podcast.).I won’t thump my chest. I fear violence. But violence is called for and justified regarding these pieces of shit. I’m posting this twice because I want it to be in the main thread and because I’m responding to the Talia-method: see => punch
So I did this but I don’t have a book deal for it, I have a fake white supremacist Facebook account and I infiltrated white supremacists. Have done it since 2015. It’s quite hilarious because they’re all so stupid and they have yet to figure out why they keep getting their accounts banned.
It’s going to keep happening until someone gets fed up and sticks some of them in the ground.
OTOH - First amendment. Unless they behave violently, nothing that can really be done.
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Hate speech absolutely is protected by the first amendment.
This is incorrect. Hate speech does not exist in the US on a federal level.
If I key your car and write “go back to [place] you dirty [racial slur]” I will get charged with vandalizing your car and an increased penalty because it’s a hate crime.
But if I’m not committing a crime I can go around saying all sorts of hateful things and the 1st amendment protects me. That same sentence from above can be freely said with no legal penalties.
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They do have the First Amendment right to march and wave their flags around. Now, if all major political parties quickly denounced them and the police treated them as the potential threats that they are, then their “peaceful marches” would be ridiculed and they would be driven back into the shadows.
The bigger problem isn’t that they have a First Amendment right to march. It’s that one of the two major political parties watches them match and says “these guys have some good ideas.” Instead of being driven into the shadows of society, they are being given positons of power. And we’ve seen what happens when Nazis are given power.
You know nothing about US law.
They probably passed the Lemmy Bar exam.
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It also sounds like something a whole lot of lawyers would say.
Not how it works. The first amendment explicitly allows you to disagree with the founding philosophy of the country. In fact it’s sort of the whole point.
Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech. - Chomsky
My opinion? It’s better to have these guys out in the open where you can see them. If you try and suppress them by shutting down their protests or arresting them you have
A) opened the door for the government to do that with any radically perceived movement in the future. Any leftist protest movement could easily be shut down under similar pretense
B) you turn the guys into martyrs for the cause. Just like Trump’s indictments improved his polling numbers, these Nazis would likewise see a surge in popularity.
C) suppressing ideas doesn’t make them suddenly go away. You just push it underground where it becomes even more radical without the moderating influence from the mainstream.
Why are people becoming open Nazis? Consider the source of the problem. The worse the economic situation is historically, the more radical people become. Florida has the highest inflation in the country, relatively low wages and relatively high cost of living.
It’s not a coincidence that the Nazis came to power right after the Great Depression. We need to fix the economic situation and fast.
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And Chomsky is a nobody
You might not like him or disagree with him but if he was a nobody you wouldn’t have an opinion on him.
I dont think you know who you’re dealing with
The government should not be the arbiter of truth. Do you trust the FBI? Do you trust the CIA? You think they are the good guys? The dozens of coups all across the world? The endless spying and surveillance?
You’re advocating that these people should have even more power over you.
Do you also let cockroaches and rats run wild out in the open in your home?
To avoid cockroaches, you stop leaving food and water in the open. Turning the lights off and scurrying them away won’t help the issue.
We need to solve the economic issues to get rid of Nazis. Anything else is just turning the lights off. As long as people are struggling to pay bills and have a sense of instability and fear for the future… we’re going to have fascists. It doesn’t matter if you make it so they can’t speak in public. They will just speak in private and continue to grow.
We need broad ranging economic reforms.
You just described everything that happened by letting them have free speech
Give me specific examples. I don’t follow what you mean.
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Have you ever actually dealt with cockroaches? They survive nuclear blasts. You need to remove the source of food and water otherwise all the traps in the world don’t make a difference. You leave one or two alive and they will just repopulate.
Plus consider the implications of what you’re saying. Let’s say we arrest and imprison every single Nazi. What’s going to happen? The ones that remain are going to stay real quiet, aren’t they? What then? Is the government going to be actively spying on every single communications in the country to try and find them?
That’s what it’ll take. And maybe it’ll even be possible. But consider what you have created. A massive surveillance state with broad ranging legal powers to detain and imprison “enemies of the state”. What happens when a far-right party gets elected? Remember, we are a democracy. What happens when the next Trump gets elected and says BLM are fascists?
Actually, we don’t need to imagine. If you look at his recent interview with Tucker Carlson that’s exactly what he said. He said the fascists are out to get him.
You don’t see any potential issues with this? None at all?
Honestly, we’re screwed. Unfortunately I think your wish will ultimately become reality and we will live in a brutal authoritarian surveillance state. I’m just glad I got to grow up before it became that way.
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Nazis believe in the genocide of a racial group. Genocide is not normalized in the USA. It was not normalized by the Telecommunications Act.
Can we stop saying crazy things that didn’t happen?
Christianity has nothing to do with fascism. It can be used by fascists, sure. But if you look at Nazi Germany for example Hitler hated the church and there’s speculation he had plans to totally destroy it. Fascists don’t like groups of power that aren’t controlled by them. So for example the Catholic Church had to go. He tried to create a Protestant church called the “Reich Church” that was sort of a state religion but once that failed he gave up and suppressed the religious movements.
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I don’t think you really know anything about Chomsky’s corpus of work. I believe this because you didn’t mention any of his critiques of US imperialism or the propaganda model he outlined in his most famous book - Manufacturing Consent.
You speak confidently about things you don’t really understand. I’m going to stop engaging unless you start addressing the things I’m saying. I’m starting to think you might be a ChatGPT bot. Or maybe just a teenager, I don’t know.
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Something I learned about the Rwandan genocides in 1994 is that comparing humans to insects is one of the first steps of genocidal ideology.
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Why do you think I’m arguing with you?
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I would just like to quickly point out you said it was built on the idea that all are created equal
The Constitution was written in 1787, put in effect in 1789
The Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves was signed in 1807, and the 13th Amendment in 1865
Women gained the right to vote nationally in 1920
Just because they said all people are equal, does not mean they actually thought all people are equal.
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Not true at all. There’s nothing in your comment indicating even the most basic knowledge of the law.
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Right. There’s nothing difficult about your idea and I definitely get it.
My point is only that it has no basis whatsoever in the reality of US jurisprudence.
It’s nice that you have these ideas, just know that they are completely irrelevant in a legal context.
Are threats protected by the first amendment? I think there’s a legitimate argument to be made that flying a nazi flag is inherently threatening. It says to me that that person wants to hurt me, that they will hurt me if I give them the chance. It is threatening enough to cause me fear, to cause me to change my behavior for my safety. Why should public declaration of their desire to hurt me br protected speech?
You would be shocked at what’s covered under the 1st amendment. The language has to fall under a “True Threat” definition in order to not be covered.
https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1025/true-threats
More:
Tbh I’m not surprised at all. I’m well aware that, as a trans woman, I have no right to safety in America. Police, landlords, and employers have all made it clear to me that the rights of bigots to hurl slurs and threats at me supercedes my right to safety or freedom from harassment. When I worked at Walmart, multiple witnesses reported another employee specifically and directly threatening to cut me with a knife, a knife of a sort that was against company policy to carry on site to begin with. Because no member of management heard the threat and they couldn’t quite see the knife on camera, they did nothing. Wait, I take that back, they reduced my hours so I would be in the building with him less. So yeah, I’m not surprised at all that threatening minorities is protected in America. I’ve been threatened and seen those people protected…
These are hate groups - they would love it if you killed one of them since it would justify their hate even further.
