A Georgia school board voted along party lines Thursday to fire a teacher after officials said she improperly read a book on gender fluidity to her fifth grade class.
why the fuck is a schoolboard voting “along party lines.” I know it’s been this way for a while, but it doesn’t make it any less stupid that your godamn political party decides your EVERY attitude in life.
“I’m a Republican because I want small government! Government so small it fits in my head and determines literally everything I do! I’m also a free-thinker by the way, or at least that’s what Sean Hannity says I should call myself.”
It’s a republican strategy decades in the making to “fix” the phenomenon of liberal schools. School board members now campaign on national right wing outlets.
You’d also love to know that some hospitals boards are public and therefore elected positions are available to the community.
In Sarasota County in Florida they tried to get enough votes to take over the board to change the hospital policy from following CDC policy and best practices to the sole discretion of the doctor. This would of allowed the hospital to prescribe ivermectin to treat COVID.
It ultimately failed so they are now opening a clinic in Venice Florida that follows no guidelines. The other half of the building is a podcast studio.
I’m trying to wrap my head around the intent.
Is this a case where she was fired because the book didn’t have anything to do with the class she’s teaching? Or because a bunch of parents went Karen and it made the school district look bad?
If a history class references passages from the bible, I think that is inappropriate in general but it depends on context. If it’s using the bible to explain say the history of the Holy War, that makes sense. Having the context about the why does help.
If she was teaching Sex Ed and talking about gender fluidity, in that context it makes sense to me.
Like you can’t talk about Hitler’s philosophies without being up Mein kampf even at a shallow level. And to ignore it is disingenuous to education.
The thing is: You need the kids to have this information before puberty really starts to take off so they know what’s going on with them when they start to feel things that are related to gender fluidity/homosexuality/whatever, so they grow up without the self-doubts and such but with the feeling that what they are is just another human being.
Things related to sexual attraction (e.g. homosexuality) might start around puberty, but things related to gender itself can start even earlier than that. This source claims that about ¾ of folks with gender dysphoria first experience it by age 7.
The intent is transphobia, anything else is an excuse.
I mean they have a very logical point, it’s probably unlikely but for example you would have to admit if it was a maths class and there was an important standardized exam coming up, such unrelated material would be a highly unusual waste of time and in contempt of the time sensitive curriculum. We can’t just politicize every headline and grab our pitchforks before we get the full picture - details and nuance are important for categorizing things like this. Perhaps it is though, the headline sounds bad but the actual article provides very little further context. Did she know it was a violation of policy and opt to be fired anyway? Why?
Everyone says this but I remember my teachers wasting our time pretty often. I can still tell you about my 7th grade English teacher’s time he met his future daughter-in-law but not the difference between an adverb and a verb.
The thing I remember the most from 5th grade was the day we learned the names of all the NBA teams
Except it isn’t a fucking logical point, it’s whataboutism and an army of strawmen.
And by playing devils advocate with these empty fallacies (and admitting you haven’t even bothered to read the details, or know anything about this book that has you running scared), you are actively (and to my personal impression, deliberately) contributing to the problem.deleted by creator
there is a nuanced difference between transphobia and not wanting to discuss topics that cause arguments in a school
It’s still transphobia, the only reason it’s viewed as a political topic is because of transphobia. It’s pretty cowardly to say we should avoid talking about gender/trans issues just because it makes people uncomfortable, and might cause arguments. Trans people exist, but you’re arguement kinda says to me “They aren’t worth the trouble, id rather sideline them to avoid disagreements.”.
Abortion is a rough comparison, it’s a heavy topic and I think it would probably be inappropriate for more reasons than just being a “Political” topic.
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The ‘insubordination’ part is especially confounding. She’s insubordinate by reading a children’s book to children? What?
She’s insubordinate by reading a children’s book to children? What?
If it’s "insubordination’ then it’s safe to assume either (a) she was explicitly told not to do this by a superior, or (b) there must be a rule or regulation against it in the school district.
Or (c) they’re making up bullshit reasons to fire her.
Applying logic to bigotry is a waste of time. It’s just ingroup loyalty. The rest is mouth noises. They won’t be clever noises, and they won’t be consistent noises.
I did some digging to see if she was teaching a particular subject or anything. She was a teacher in the schools gifted program and per her Wikipedia page “According to the Cobb County School Board, Rinderle read the book during a time block that was supposed to be dedicated to mathematics instruction and enrichment, but Rinderle denies this allegation.”.
I’m going to keep looking but it seems like their schooling is structured differently than I have any experience in. When I was in 5th grade we had 3 teachers that we rotated between for different subjects. It seems like she was responsible for several subjects or the entire curriculum for her students. Either way, the school boards intent is clear and malicious.
Thanks for looking into this.
Reading an off topic book during a particular time block isn’t an offense deserving of termination to any same person, either.
The book, My Shadow Is Purple is one I have had the pleasure to read thanks to my wife’s job as a school librarian. The theme of the book is acceptance of differences, centered around a child’s parent who at first seems unaccepting but who surprises the child and the reader at the end for a happy, wholesome outcome.
The board went against the recommendation of a panel and fired her over this book, voting along party lines, for an offense that would not ever warrant termination in an even marginally sane world. To me, this strongly suggests that this is another case of extremist right wing / regressive people trying to silence and further marginalize people different from them. Out of fear and hate, as usual. The effect of which is detrimental to each of the children who are not gender conforming. I personally think this school board needs to hear from people opposed to their decision en masse. They have already gone too far with their harmful ambitions.
This is the dumbest reason to fire a teacher. The education system is already hurting for teachers.
Ain’t that what they want? No education and kids that work factories for pennies.
same people rolling back child labor laws and campaigning against unions so… yeah. Remember when Florida decided it didn’t need educated people as teachers, and instead made it so anyone who was in the military (or had been married to a military person) eligible to be a teacher?
They’re all fucking morons, actively hurting everyone around them
They’re all fucking morons, actively hurting everyone around them
Stop attributing to stupidity that which is better explained by malice.
These people aren’t morons; they know exactly what they’re doing: deliberately trying to create an underclass to exploit.
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In what way could this be remotely worse then pushing a Bible on to a class
In no way, for those who consider everyone of equal value.
The Bible has many disturbing stories and isn’t appropriate for children in my view, having read the whole thing as a kid.
For those (i.e. bigots, fascists, …) that feel humanity is a hierarchy of value where the in group is at the top and the out group are below that, they are opposed to validating the perfectly normal and human experiences of people with a range of gender identities. For the subset of those that consider themselves Christian, they believe (without evidence) that the Bible is somehow better for kids than allowing them to be themselves and be validated and accepted by others.
A friend of my kid is exploring their gender identity. We have known the family since they were a baby. My wife is friends with the mom. They are religious we aren’t. Unfortunately the mom insists on rejecting their identity and new chosen name. I personally cannot comprehend how one can prioritize anything over my own child’s happiness.
Sigh… of course it’s fucking kkkobb county.
Cobb county has actually turned pretty solidly blue over the past decade.
So what? The school board and other elected officials haven’t.
It will be soon
I hope so, but that’s cold comfort to this already-fired teacher.
Also, even if it flipped today (and “soon” isn’t that soon), it’d still be decades and decades before Cobb gets MARTA rail. Cobb’s influence on metro Atlanta as whole is an unmitigated catastrophe and probably will be for the rest of my lifetime.
Cobb might join MARTA sooner than we think, but sadly you’re mostly right. I have no hope for any rail expansion in my lifetime, and I’m not even old.
Unfortunately, “joining MARTA” and “getting rail” are far from synonymous, as Clayton is learning the hard way. But the United States in general’s comprehensive inability to build infrastructure in a reasonable timeframe these days is a rant for another thread…
Depressing truth
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The baller move here would be to show up and keep teaching anyways.
Got em
She violated district policies on controversial , so she’s wrong. If she was teaching any subject other than human growth and development, she’s doubly wrong.
Elementary school teachers should be teaching their assigned subjects, not their personal politics.
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You know what actually makes aggressive sales pitches and pushes? Religion.
Books like the one the teacher read do NOT force or influence children to become trans. They teach them about being open minded and to love everyone around us, no matter how they choose to express themselves.
Religion, on the other hand, DOES force children to pick a life of close-mindedness by threatening the fear of eternal damnation if they don’t follow the rules in a book.
Kids need to be protected from this stuff. Sorry.
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Usually, people who speak out against teaching kids about gender typically have a religious agenda. I apologize for making that assumption about you.
However, I do think it’s important to teach kids about what it means to be human and that nothing is ever exactly one way or the other. Most things in this universe operate on a spectrum. Nobody is “chest-thumping about trans stuff”. As I mentioned in my previous message, most people are just trying to teach kids about loving and caring for everyone and that it’s okay to be different.
It shouldnt be “normalized” since it really isnt.
And why should trans people not be normalized? If we only operated based on “this is wrong because it’s different”, then we would still believe that the Earth is flat, the Sun revolves around us, women shouldn’t vote, and white people have a god-given right to own slaves. The point is “It isn’t normal” is not a good excuse. Anything can be normalized.
I think having that kind of mindset is based purely on fear of the unknown. A good education where we learn about other people and other cultures would vastly improve how we think about those around us.
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In fifth grade I knew my gender for sure. Did you not? Maybe you could’ve used the book so you understood yourself.
The concept of gender is a social construct. Humans are a complex matrix of innate and learned behaviour. Our prefrontal cortex hasn’t fully matured until age 25, meaning you continue to change and develop your sense of identity until then. I don’t believe for a second you had a strong, stable and unchanging realisation of self and ego at age 10. Part of human maturation is exploring these changes, testing psychological boundaries, and filtering and accepting external influence. We should definitely not be placing kids into any kind of boxes, either explicitly or implicitly.
Kids spend their entire lives learning our social constructs and self selecting into them. It’s going to happen. Some people have no interest in exploring, some do, and both are ok.
I knew at the age of 13 that I never wanted children and have held fast to that decision. I would say it’s not unreasonable for someone at a young age to know early on what gender they identify with even if they don’t know the specific term for it.
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You haven’t, you at best knew at age 2, typically 2.5. If you were a parent you could see the process. Why is it that the anti-LGBT crowd knows the least about childhood development? Is it because you think a book written for and by goat herders in the bronze age contains any value?
It’s because people who are anti-free thought tend to be lacking critical thinking capabilities. That’s why they need to be told who to hate and why they are able to move on to the next set of “others” to hate just as quickly as their media bubble steers them. They don’t have to waste time in forethought or hindsight.
Part of it may be because that crowd has limited curiosity, mental flexibility, empathy, and humility.
Whereas the rest of us are fascinated watching our kids develop into whoever they become and learn new things and modify our beliefs and understanding based on reflecting on what we observe.
I suspect that the right leaning crowd wants to force everything around them to fit what they already believe, rather than updating their beliefs based on what they experience. And so the daughter who says “actually, I feel like a boy and also my name is John” is rejected and/or forced to conform with the outdated, incorrect beliefs of the parents.
What is your earliest memory…?
Patting themselves on the back for knowing their gender.
Although I’m sure it was tough to reach right as they were coming out of the birth canal…
My eldest is going into 4th grade and it took me about 30 seconds to explain that her aunt was born male. It really isn’t that baffling of a concept.
Adults who have trouble understanding basic concepts (or those who need to be told how to feel about them) often assume everyone also has trouble understanding them.
So I can see how someone - someone who doesn’t understand other people’s capabilities - would have a hard time understanding that most grade school-aged people do not also have a hard time understanding those concepts.
In short, some people are too dumb to realize other people aren’t dumb, too.
I will go with that, basic projection.
By that age kids know if they are a boy or girl or other. And much younger, actually.
The book^1 is about being accepted for who you are and what you like Instead of being rejected and hated.
How can anyone defend rejecting and hating a 5th grader for any reason much less merely because of how they dress or what they like to do??
1 I’ve read the book, have you?
I just don’t understand why 5th graders should even be exposed to that that early. For kids that haven’t even gone through puberty yet I think gender identity is a pretty mature topic, and I don’t think I’d want a teacher being the one to discuss it with my child.
And before someone says that I just want to suppress the info keeping it out of school, what about the flip side where a nut job teacher decides 2 genders is part of the lesson plan?
Edit: Never been so dogpiled about a comment before. In MY OPINION I just think 5th grade is too early. According to the hive mind I am wrong.
I also get nervous having government agencies (schools) involved with anything lgbtq+. We all know the government and our courts always side with the compassionate and accepting side. And would never suppress people’s rights. /S
Some of you are out of control, I never thought that comment would cause people to assume my gender, orientation, political affiliation, hell one of you assumed my race (wtf)
5th grade seems like an appropriate time to start educating students about this as part of their health curriculum. That’s the grade when they gave us the puberty talk in my old school district.
Some early bloomers absolutely start puberty during or before 5th grade.
For people outside the US how old would 5th graders actually be?
11 usually
That seems like a perfectly reasonable age to introduce a person to a topic like puberty.
Like I’m pretty sure I was taught the basics of it and what it does to your body when I was that age.
Isn’t that a bit late to be starting basic health education? For girls, that’s above the average age of beginning puberty and for both, it’s years after the cutoff for it being consider precocious.
It is a bit late, but for what it’s worth, we started the puberty lessons at 10 years old and I was one of the older kids in class. Most were 9.
Nowadays a lot of girls at that age already menstruate. It is not only appropriate, you might even argue it is a tad late.
Maybe it’s just how I was raised or taught, sex ed didn’t start till 7th/8th grade for me, and looking back seemed like an appropriate age to me.
But this isn’t sex ed. Discussing gender doesn’t mean discussing having sex.
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Of course I’m not an expert, that’s why I’m on this site having a discussion. Wasn’t aware being an expert was required to comment here.
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Notice how i didn’t say, “And thats the age it should stay” i said to me it SEEMED appropriate, that is my opinion, I never claimed my life experience should dictate how all children should be taught. Im not arguing in bad faith, merely expanding on where my thoughts and opinions come from.
The teacher was fired for teaching gender theory, not sex education. Those are very different things and I suspect you know that.
Yes they are two different things but they are related. Puberty can be devastating to a child who isn’t comfortable with their body. In some cases puberty blockers are prescribed to delay the physical changes for children with gender disphoria. So educating gender identity along with puberty isn’t a bad idea.
And yes, some children do start questioning their gender before they start puberty.
But this is all speculative. We don’t know what the context for this teacher reading the book, but calling it inappropriate for their age is wrong.
I think it’s wrong. Gender theory is pretty radical. It has no factual basis. Reinforcing delusions is universally destructive in psychology. As long as those delusions aren’t reinforced, most kids reconcile without intervention. This study found that only 37% of children still identified as dysphoric five years later. This study found that 88% had desisted (they were no longer dysphoric). This mirrors other historical research into various areas of child psychology. Children frequently change identity and beliefs around identity.
As for puberty blockers, they don’t just delay puberty. They also have devastating side effects, including osteoporosis and diabetes. That is why puberty blockers for gender dysphoria have now been banned in Sweden, the United Kingdom, and other European nations.
“When we asked him regularly how his back felt, he said: ‘I’m in pain all the time’,” she added.
This topic is rather personal to me, so I’ve researched it to the best of my abilities. I’m happy to concede this isn’t settled science, but must reinforce that this isn’t settled science. It’s not clear that affirmation is beneficial, and in fact, research indicates the opposite.
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Google tells me that NYRAG stands for the New York Regional Association of Grantmakers. I’m sorry but I don’t understand how that relates.
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My sister “knew” she was trans when she was around 8. Granted, we didn’t have the terminology back then so…
That being said, how is it a “mature” topic? We teach children the concept of “this boy” and “this girl” much earlier than that. And I’m confused how the concept has anything to do with puberty either.
Same with my younger sibling. It was very obvios early in their life, but we didn’t had words for it either. Didn’t understand and didn’t took it that serious.
I had my period with 11 years, but suffered till i was 30. Cause it was a tabu to talk about that. I need to Suffer, i was told. BS.
It is crucial to give kids knowledge that they are not wrong. That they are not weird. That they know everything is okay and their parents are here guiding them. AND they need to know that other people are not weird so they can learn empathy.
Said it in another thread on this:
I’m trans.
I figured it out, literally in the fifth grade.
It’s not too early. It’s not too hard. It’s not bad for them. Not having proper knowledge of things has made my life harder and worse than it had to be. If you want to help kids, teaching them things is how you do that. Hiding things from them hurts trans kids, and it makes it easier for predators to predate on kids. If you want to hurt kids, that’s on you, but say it with your fuckin’ chest. Don’t hide behind this line that you know is false.
Oh, and re nutjob teachers:
We teach evolution in school, because the data backs it. We don’t teach creationism in school, because the data doesn’t back it. It’s not that hard, this argument is pointless chaff.
As someone who grew up on the home school christian cult side of things.
I’ve done the abstinence only teaching, to the point I was in my teens and thought all girls had a penis.
Ya, ya, laugh it up.
Only thing I can say is, it doesn’t work, it never did. Once body changes start happening kids have tons of questions and when the answer to those questions is “Do nothing”, that’s not going to be enough.
Especially when we grow up in a society that encourages asking questions and giving answers. Until it gets into this one topic.
“I’m privileged enough to have been born cis and straight in this cis-heteronormative world where my gender and sexuality have been openly discussed and supported (if not enforced) since birth, but when those who are trans and/or gay want to talk openly about how they’ve also known their gender and orientation for just as long, it’s suddenly a sensitive topic I don’t think children are ready to hear”
And you know what that says about you?
That you’re not as tolerant or progressive as you like to tell yourself you are.Jesus Christ I just thought 5th grade was too young. I think your reading my comment a little too deep.
No, I’m really not.
Because I guarantee that you have no issue with cis-heteronormative fairy tales being told to kids, nor cis-heteronormative gender stereotypes enforced on them, from significantly younger than the 5th grade. I also guarantee that you don’t give a shit about how those who aren’t cis or hetero are impacted by only ever learning about those who are.
You’re only clutching your “think of the children!!1” pearls now because you’ve been socialised to other trans and gay people and to believe that their entire existence revolves around the act of sex, so in your mind teaching kids about gender (something we all have an experience of, even if we conclude we don’t have one, and are aware of from as early as infancy) is the equivalent of somehow exposing them to porn or some other “immorality” (when the book literally just teaches kids about accepting others).
So you can keep telling yourself whatever you like to make yourself feel better, but the reality is that you are buying in to, and actively perpetuating, transphobia and homophobia.
Most of these discussions don’t really get into the details of it. It isn’t like a 5th grade teacher is going to go into exactly how the surgery and hormon injects work. It is a pretty top level PG rated discussion. I agree if that strawman was happening it would be if nothing else very strange.
There is a difference between telling a kid that two guys can marry and showing a kid a hardcore gay porno.
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It’s clearly a children’s book. Do you really think it’s presented in any sort of inappropriate way?
I mean I remember taking biology that went over reproductive anatomy in 6th grade. I feel like gender identity isn’t any more mature of a topic than penises and vaginas. Maybe my school was an outlier though? Either way I think letting kids who might not feel comfortable with their gender know that their feelings are valid is important enough to warrant mentioning in elementary school
You can easily talk to preschoolers about this stuff. A little bit of information about the world they live in doesn’t hurt them in the least.
Except gender is a much less mature topic than sex and sexual attraction, something that should be taught around 5th grade if not earlier, before children have confusing feelings and their bodies undergo confusing changes. The media atmosphere already leaves impressions about sexuality in the minds of children much earlier, so there isn’t much harm for parents or teachers to discuss the topic in a much healthier way.
Gender on the other hand is something impressed upon and experienced by even toddlers, so the topic of gender isn’t all that mature, it’s only treated as mature because of the social taboos regarding trans individuals.
People are gender non conforming from a young age, not after puberty. Making them wait to learn about it just means they will be confused about it for longer, whether it’s themselves or their peers
My daughters went through puberty at 9 and almost 9. That’s 4th grade. The older one knew she was gay by 11. I had sex ed starting in 5th grade back in the fucking 80’s.
Yeah why tell kids about puberty until they’re done with it?
In response to the edit: I notice you pivoted from it being a function of “maturity” and placement relative to puberty, to now wrapping it in concern of the gov’t - some how - surpressing “lgbtq rights” by teaching about their existence, which is a contradictory stance, but w.e.
Look, my sister’s trans, my mothers are gay, and I’m the straight dood in my family. I’m not in a hivemind, and my experience watching them wade through life informs my thoughts. Your appeal that people who disagree with you are in one is troubling, to say the least.
Heck, you didn’t even address a few anecdotes of people being precisely in the age range you had issue with, and instead chose to take a different tact – instead doubling down you are correct.
I didn’t “pivot”, i didnt brink up the age aspect because it is pretty apparent that i’m in the minority (at least on here) with my opinion, The government / school aspect was before the edit if you look again. I only brought that back up because I felt i could expand my train of thought on it, i didn’t feel there is anything to add about the age when such education is appropriate, especially when me and the other commenters disagree so strongly that nothing will come of it.
Yeah, you think they should wait until the trauma really sets in? That’s the right time?
I think it’s common to conflate Gender Dysphoria and sexual maturity since hormone therapy is a common treatment. Here is a study from the nlm about the age transgender adults first experienced symptoms of GD. It’s only one study so maybe do some additional reading.
What does puberty have to do with the topic? Should we wait til puberty to teach people that the flu or covid exists? It’s a topic connected to many deaths, so surely it’s a mature topic. Otoh, gender is a pretty basic topic parents force onto children, often before the child is even born. Why do we allow such inappropriate behavior towards literal children?
Well, some kids in 5th grade will start to wonder about themselves so it sounds pretty age appropriate to be taught differences exists.
I was in catholic school and started sex ed (well what counts as sex ed for a catholic school) in 5th grade. They told us about some of the most extreme cases of what some.of the worst sti’s do and we watched video of an actual birth so if we could handle hearing and seeing those things in a catholic school, I think 5th graders can handle learning about how people express their genders.
what about the flip side where a nut job teacher decides 2 genders is part of the lesson plan?
They already do that in every school I know of. These idiot say they are indoctrinating kids to be homosexual or trans ( tbf not sure if there is a real difference besides body look) yet all “health” classes focus on the male and female reproductive system. I remember parents getting In an uproar over high schoolers being given condoms in the class.
Yea some children are rebellious against the norma, however I truly believe that if the parents want to control the schooling so bad, then their asses should quit their jobs and home school. Otherwise they should all just STFU.
Edit: Never been so dogpiled about a comment before.
Let’s keep going. Hope you disabled notifications.
In MY OPINION I just think 5th grade is too early. According to the hive mind I am wrong.
Just cuz you had a bad take doesn’t mean we’re a fucking hive mind. I didnt even bother reading others’ replies before giving you my piece. But way to be condescending to cushion your ego!
I also get nervous having government agencies (schools) involved with anything lgbtq+. We all know the government and our courts always side with the compassionate and accepting side. And would never suppress people’s rights. /S
So you support government censorship as a tool to protect against… government censorship?
Some of you are out of control, I never thought that comment would cause people to assume my gender, orientation, political affiliation, hell one of you assumed my race (wtf)
Still haven’t read what others had to say, it’s probably quite disgusting yes
Look you had a bad take and now you’re lashing out to protect your ego. its fine
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You are 100% correct. Absolutely no reason to be bringing up any of this nonsense to 10 year olds.
But good luck having a logical conversation with some about this - just because you don’t want 10 year olds exposed to this, they immediately (and quite wrongly) accuse of you being some bible-thumper or some right wing nazi or a MAGAt or someone along those lines. Maybe you just know your kid and know it is too early to discuss this stuff with them? This teacher forced the hand of the school board panel to fire her because she specifically pull this stunt against parent wishes.
It is obnoxious to see that many on the far-left act the same way and use the same attack techniques as those on the far-right. They both are just as stubborn and just as closed-minded to altering viewpoints. What makes it especially bad is that liberals at least like to pretend that they are open-minded to differing viewpoints, but the reality is that for many, that is absolutely not the case.
This shit has no business in schools, especially at this young age. Those who are stubbornly pushing this nonsense are doing way more harm than good to liberal causes. These people are painting a terrible picture to the country of what the far-left wants to do and that they will do it regardless of what parents agree to.
You all are setting the movement back, not helping it move forward. You come off as clowns.
