It’s when stuff like this happens that I always question the possibility of Marxist unity. How could I call those “comrades” who wish to demonise and take away rights from marginalised groups even if we do ultimately agree on the same economic system?
At the same time though, I understand that it’s almost impossible for Marxists to gain traction in a reactionary society if they rail against the reactionary zeitgeist too hard. Marxists need to be in tune with the proletariat but that’s hard when the minds of the proletariat have been poisoned by reactionary propaganda such that the zeitgeist contradicts progressive values.
So what can be done? It’s easy to say “We should educate people away from reaction” but actually doing that seems almost impossible, it’s not as if you have legions of reactionaries who are completely open to changing their minds through reasoned and factual debate because if their critical thinking skills were up to par then they wouldn’t be influenced by bourgeois media in the first place. Yes this task may not actually be impossible but only in the sense that it’s technically not impossible for a Marxist party to win an election under FPTP, we still know it’s realistically never going to happen so is it really worth banking our hopes and dreams for the future on succeeding in this way? Certainly we don’t want to risk being viewed by the proletariat as a bunch of out-of-touch middle class bookworms, sitting on a high platform to lecture down to people about their “inferior morals and political education” but we also have to be mindful to not abandon our principles for the sake of populism.
So maybe there’s an argument for tolerating some degree of reaction in society for the sake of a Marxist party making some kind of progress and gaining ground by appearing to be in tune with the proletariat, but then at what point does tolerance to reaction, or other deviations from ML principles, become liberalism? Mao Zedong needed the support of rural peasants to win the revolution in China but if you think these peasants were all well-educated Marxists then you’ll be sorely disappointed as the vast majority of them were entirely illiterate and full of reactionary sentiments regarding things like patriarchy and superstition. Nobody (worth listening to) calls Mao a reactionary or a liberal, yet he had to rely on a base of non-Marxists to achieve a proletarian state.
However, you also get groups like patsocs in America who have been trying to align themselves with MAGA chauvinists and they’ve been roundly crapped on in ML circles for trying to appeal to this crowd. So I feel we really do need to answer the question of where we draw this line if we do want a grand revolutionary success. Yes these are very “online Marxist” problems but at the same time I think there’s only so much work you can do at the grassroots community level before you and your party have to start thinking a bit more about the bigger picture.
Working with people that have no clue about marxism or even who, on some point, have some different views is not necessarily a bad thing. Your average factoryworker may not be all that interested in, for example, trans rights or fighting patriarchy. But that does not mean they should not be in our party.
However, if you actively work against the rights of minorities you should not be a part of the movement. I think you need to have a pretty solid base line that you won’t cross. Otherwise we would just betray the LGBTQI+, non-white and other minority groups fighting on the marxist side. Nor should they accept that.
If my party would declare support to some homophobic group because they want another ally, my fellow comrades and I would hopefully rise up to protest it. And what would be next? Adapting liberal ideologies because we want to appeal to liberals? No, we don’t do that as well.
It’s one thing to have some backwards views because you are misinformed, but to actively work against the interests of minorities is not marxist at all and should not be accepted. It’s a tough challenge to persuade other people for our cause when they have backwards views, but through education, action and other forms of outreach it’s certainly possible. I’ve seen it happen myself.
I understand what you’re saying and the way that you and your party feel about these matters is the same way that I feel. However, I’m willing to bet that you’re speaking from the position of someone in a liberal Western country where society is not so reactionary/bigoted. In Russia and other countries, this kind of bigotry is a lot more normalised and also backed up fully by both state and private media, such that many in Russia consider the notion of “LGBT propaganda” to be factual.
Like imagine if you wanted to run a Marxist party in Saudi Arabia; assuming it wouldn’t be outlawed immediately you’d have to go up against the entirety of Islamic culture regarding things like homophobia and patriarchy and I can’t help but feel like if you rail against these ideas on Day One you’ll probably never gain much ground, if any.
What I’m saying is that it might be possible or even easy to educate and not tolerate reaction in countries with a weaker reactionary base among the proletariat, but in societies where reaction and bigotry are simply the norm and have been for centuries now then is it not universalist abstraction to say that Marxists in these societies should expect the same success as Marxists in your society?
It’s when stuff like this happens that I always question the possibility of Marxist unity. How could I call those “comrades” who wish to demonise and take away rights from marginalised groups even if we do ultimately agree on the same economic system?
At the same time though, I understand that it’s almost impossible for Marxists to gain traction in a reactionary society if they rail against the reactionary zeitgeist too hard. Marxists need to be in tune with the proletariat but that’s hard when the minds of the proletariat have been poisoned by reactionary propaganda such that the zeitgeist contradicts progressive values.
So what can be done? It’s easy to say “We should educate people away from reaction” but actually doing that seems almost impossible, it’s not as if you have legions of reactionaries who are completely open to changing their minds through reasoned and factual debate because if their critical thinking skills were up to par then they wouldn’t be influenced by bourgeois media in the first place. Yes this task may not actually be impossible but only in the sense that it’s technically not impossible for a Marxist party to win an election under FPTP, we still know it’s realistically never going to happen so is it really worth banking our hopes and dreams for the future on succeeding in this way? Certainly we don’t want to risk being viewed by the proletariat as a bunch of out-of-touch middle class bookworms, sitting on a high platform to lecture down to people about their “inferior morals and political education” but we also have to be mindful to not abandon our principles for the sake of populism.
So maybe there’s an argument for tolerating some degree of reaction in society for the sake of a Marxist party making some kind of progress and gaining ground by appearing to be in tune with the proletariat, but then at what point does tolerance to reaction, or other deviations from ML principles, become liberalism? Mao Zedong needed the support of rural peasants to win the revolution in China but if you think these peasants were all well-educated Marxists then you’ll be sorely disappointed as the vast majority of them were entirely illiterate and full of reactionary sentiments regarding things like patriarchy and superstition. Nobody (worth listening to) calls Mao a reactionary or a liberal, yet he had to rely on a base of non-Marxists to achieve a proletarian state.
However, you also get groups like patsocs in America who have been trying to align themselves with MAGA chauvinists and they’ve been roundly crapped on in ML circles for trying to appeal to this crowd. So I feel we really do need to answer the question of where we draw this line if we do want a grand revolutionary success. Yes these are very “online Marxist” problems but at the same time I think there’s only so much work you can do at the grassroots community level before you and your party have to start thinking a bit more about the bigger picture.
Working with people that have no clue about marxism or even who, on some point, have some different views is not necessarily a bad thing. Your average factoryworker may not be all that interested in, for example, trans rights or fighting patriarchy. But that does not mean they should not be in our party.
However, if you actively work against the rights of minorities you should not be a part of the movement. I think you need to have a pretty solid base line that you won’t cross. Otherwise we would just betray the LGBTQI+, non-white and other minority groups fighting on the marxist side. Nor should they accept that.
If my party would declare support to some homophobic group because they want another ally, my fellow comrades and I would hopefully rise up to protest it. And what would be next? Adapting liberal ideologies because we want to appeal to liberals? No, we don’t do that as well.
It’s one thing to have some backwards views because you are misinformed, but to actively work against the interests of minorities is not marxist at all and should not be accepted. It’s a tough challenge to persuade other people for our cause when they have backwards views, but through education, action and other forms of outreach it’s certainly possible. I’ve seen it happen myself.
I understand what you’re saying and the way that you and your party feel about these matters is the same way that I feel. However, I’m willing to bet that you’re speaking from the position of someone in a liberal Western country where society is not so reactionary/bigoted. In Russia and other countries, this kind of bigotry is a lot more normalised and also backed up fully by both state and private media, such that many in Russia consider the notion of “LGBT propaganda” to be factual.
Like imagine if you wanted to run a Marxist party in Saudi Arabia; assuming it wouldn’t be outlawed immediately you’d have to go up against the entirety of Islamic culture regarding things like homophobia and patriarchy and I can’t help but feel like if you rail against these ideas on Day One you’ll probably never gain much ground, if any.
What I’m saying is that it might be possible or even easy to educate and not tolerate reaction in countries with a weaker reactionary base among the proletariat, but in societies where reaction and bigotry are simply the norm and have been for centuries now then is it not universalist abstraction to say that Marxists in these societies should expect the same success as Marxists in your society?
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