I recently made a post about this topic but it caused a lot of controversy. I did not specify and used the broad term of sex work which probably made the interpretations so varied. For the purposes of this conversation, I want to focus on work that is consensual because obviously human trafficking or coercive sex is inherently wrong and exploitative. Some people even said that sex work is not valid labor which I personally found strange. I’m personally not a fanboy of the sex industry at all, but most people involved would say that the illegality of it exacerbates the bad situation that they find themselves in, and I cannot personally find a reason to be going against what the people involved are saying. And yeah it probably wouldn’t exist under socialism but at the same time, I think it is a huge mistake to go in with an iron fist and just say “I’m going to make everyone stop sex work right this instant because it’s not socialist” because this does not treat the underlying causes of it, which will only make it spring back up anyway.
And I’m not just expecting one type of answer but if I am making an error in applying dialectical materialism or Marxism-Leninism please let me know.
One last thing, asking active “sex workers” for their input on it is not the end-all-be-all. People deny exploitation all the time. (Hello, where are we? Capitalism)
To go back to the grooming example, victims of pedophiles who have been groomed extensively can spend quite some time in denial despite society shouting at them collectively that it is wrong and despite being in counseling. How long can someone live in denial when society validates their denial and attacks those who question it? Probably their whole life. We live in a system where people deny they are exploited. Patriarchal gas-lighting of women is older, as or more sophisticated than gas-lighting of workers, because it predates capitalism let us remember. It hurts to think of oneself as exploited, it hurts your pride, your sense of self. You want to say, no I chose that, I had power, I wasn’t victimized because that’s scary. Because for many that makes you feel weak and helpless and awful instead of empowered. Denial.
Women are taught to lie. To not hurt men’s feelings so they don’t hurt or kill us, to spare boys for the sake of not being labeled nasty, mean, a dog. That includes lying to ourselves. Saying we’re okay with something when we’re not. Lots of women have stories of only realizing they were sexually assaulted years after the fact because society and their own desire not to have experienced that, not to confront it convince them it didn’t happen. Aversion.
Maybe it doesn’t always hurt all of these women themselves. But it hurts women as a whole and children, and men. And Marxists are concerned about the whole picture not your fucking individual liberty to do whatever the fuck you want and damn the consequences to society.
This has been one of the best explanations of the issue that i have ever read and honestly should be made into its own post and pinned somewhere for everyone to read who is still confused on this subject!
Thank you so much! It means a lot to hear this from you as you’ve made so many insightful posts yourself that I enjoy and feel enlightened by.
Aw. That’s sweet of you to say. Thanks comrade!
By the way if you or anyone else ever wants to appropriate my writing for any reason, please feel free. I’ve been thinking lately that prolewiki could use a page on and against prostitution and sex work (but of course delineating the situation under capitalism and solidarity with members of the proletariat). I do not think what I’ve written is quite it. If someone wants to steal it and post it as an essay there in that section they can though it could probably use some clean-up. What stops me from trying to do such an article is that I’m busy, don’t have the written works presently on-hand I’d need to cite and overall it’s very intimidating and frankly I expect a shit-storm out of it from among other places hexbear. And I’m not sure I want to deal with that. I just do not know that I want my mental health to be impacted by these frankly vicious people and their slanderous attacks, accusations, etc.
Unfortunately this is not a subject that i feel remotely qualified to write about, as i am still just trying to learn as much as i can (and i really do try to apply to myself the principle: no investigation, no right to speak), which is why i find comments like yours so valuable. But i do know that listening to what you and other comrades have had to say on this has helped me see things more clearly and unlearn some of my own liberal misconceptions. I can only agree with you, and say that what you wrote in this short essay makes more sense than all of the radlib, pseudo-marxist commentaries on the subject i have ever read/heard.
Your term “prostitution aristocracy” in particular captures perfectly one of the main gripes i have always had with those on the left who point to the statements made by some of some of the most prominent and financially successful persons in the industry in order to defend it.
I look forward to reading yours or others’ contributions to prolewiki if you ever do get around to writing that article.
One more thing:
Now some foolish people will claim they’re like therapists, but they’re not, they’re not trained and no psychology body Marxist (or liberal so far to my knowledge) would say this is an ethical thing to do that will help patients. And people claim some guys pay to talk to them but if guys really need someone to talk to it should be other men they know not strangers, women they have pre-existing platonic relationships with, and professional trained psychiatric professionals because you should get people the help they need, not exploit them for money and leave them dependent on you (which is the necessary action of these workers, to continue to draw an audience, to make people dependent on them for something they don’t need to survive nor does industry need it to keep the economy going). So the charade falls, these people are selling bodies, women’s bodies.
It is at best in the case of those who “want to” a case of people trying to turn a hobby into a career. I don’t think professional-career-gamers will exist under socialism, not unless it’s a formal televised or ticketed sport, without capitalist ad dollars and sponsorships the whole thing dries up. I think only a tiny handful of people will get there and it’ll be as unattainable as being a rock star. I also don’t think masturbating and chatting casually with strangers counts as necessary labor. It begs the question, these women are no better than others at erm their sexual tasks, basically none of them have any formal acting training, they aren’t trained therapists. The value is overwhelmingly in sexual interests and stimulation.
Which brings up a segue, and this isn’t entirely related but I’ll preach, I am tired of everything being charged for and this perpetuates that late capitalist mentality. Human companionship should absolutely not be in that list of things to monetize. I miss the days of free software, now every jerk with every little piece of software that they spent a few hours on is charging $5 on patreon to use it. Why? Because of hustle culture, because of the idea nothing should be free. That society is owed jack shit by you. That you have no responsibility beyond what you are paid for. It’s a cynical, alienating, anti-social thought pattern.
Now I’m absolutely not saying women are obligated to help men out in this area, because we’re not and goodness help you if you say otherwise as men need to help themselves first. I am saying if you like as a hobby being an exhibitionist then go and do so but don’t perpetuate the idea of paying for women and access to our bodies.
Besides that it obviously provides cover for exploitation. Who’s to say for certain that person on the camera is 18? Hell, 18 year olds shouldn’t be able to do this. Brain development doesn’t really complete until you hit 23-25 or so. The very idea it is legitimate, not anti-social, normal, accepted will further encourage underage teenagers to attempt to find ways to do it. It’ll seem easier, something they can do alongside school, something not regulated. The open market provides cover for the black market, we see that in the flesh markets of the Netherlands. Already there are girls who do this, they use social media, they use code words. This is an abomination.
Without revealing too much about myself, I’ve experienced some of the stuff you’ve written about, and I thank you for putting it into concrete words the feelings and thoughts I’ve had over the years growing up battling with these issues. Even if you don’t pursue writing it up for prolewiki, you helped me by writing this, and I’m sure it’ll help others too. ♥️
I’m really glad to hear that. I hope you’re alright comrade.
Maybe more effort should be focused on banning misogyny and re-educating people who exploit others for their personal pleasure instead of putting all of the effort into infantiziling women and speaking for them as a monolith. It looks to me that the (rightful) contempt you harbor is actually more about patriarchal control and violence by men towards women. That’s the real issue. If that were dealt with, sex work in the huge, huge part would resolve itself, especially as long as there are abundant resources available for women to access. Maybe it will disappear completely, naturally.
Women getting the iron fist, especially in a time where they HAVE been brain washed, as you say…Feels extremely misogynistic. I don’t often see women advocating and pushing or FORCING other women to get into sex work as this great, glamorous career. Why are you putting so much effort into saying this about women instead of focusing on violent, manipulative men who coerce women and do horrible things to them? This perspective just serves to perpetuate violence and misogyny to me.
Also men and people of different genders engage in sex work. Perhaps that’s brainwashing as well but just wanted to throw that out there.
Please, try and engage honestly with all of what I have said in the paragraph you are referencing. It’s all right there at the top of my post. Act in good faith. Thanks.
What did I say? Did I say right now? Did I say under capitalism? No. I said under socialism. I said under socialism after their material needs have been met, they aren’t going to lose a home or food, or medical care for sake of ceasing to do this “work”. I said after not only that but intervention, therapy, re-education. If both of those things fail you have people willingly engaging in anti-social behavior, they’ve been brainwashed by communists (do you know the origin of brain washing? It literally means to wash the brain, to wash out the lies, to capitalists and imperialists who were frightened by their soldiers in Korea being woken up to what they were doing of course they’d conflate it with indoctrination, I don’t hold it against you that you use it that way, many people do, but I did want to point it out as it’s an interesting fact), that is cleansed of indoctrination while being provided for and they still choose to defy the line we’ve set, then and only then does anything happen. That is extremely lenient, extremely caring, we are under my proposal taking great pains to avoid having to be harsh. We are doing everything we can to materially meet needs, and educate. But you must understand. There is a tiny fraction of the population who refuse re-education. Who refuse to be deprogrammed of the old superstructure, of old social structures.
To address the second part briefly. I am engaging in a conversation with people who take as a given that pimps and men profiting off women selling sex is bad. I am engaging in a conversation with people who deflect with, well it was the woman’s choice, it wasn’t men, she likes it, she chose it. Etc. My post does go over men but it is huge as you can see no doubt. I didn’t want to pad it out going over something everyone already agrees with and I really do not appreciate your insinuations towards me which are little more than personal attacks and cheap shots from someone who has no argument to offer.
Women perpetuate misogyny and this must be recognized and dealt with in any conversation where people pull out token women to excuse something. Men are primarily responsible, overwhelmingly responsible for misogyny and patriarchy and upholding it with incredible violence. It is their job, their fault and I expect them as comrades to shoulder primary responsibility which includes not perpetuating things like what we are discussing. However we cannot ignore in desiring to abolish it that there are women who will resist us actively, who will aid, abet, and join with those men seeking to uphold it. And this conversation got into that territory. And I have addressed their existence as best I could in brief without getting bogged down into a dissertation on the matter.
Absolutely men and people of other genders engage in sex work and prostitution. However it is a primarily women’s issue and it is from that perspective of feminism and women’s rights I address it. I do not want to distract from the fact prostitution was not built and is not a structure primarily of oppression to men, LGBTQ+ people, etc, that any such oppression came later, often as part of, ancillary too the structure of patriarchy and misogyny. Overwhelmingly women are those who do it and men are those who consume it. That includes trans women and the issue of trans-misogyny by the way. Fetishization, degradation, de-humanization. Trans-women are women and women are not your fetish or kink they are people my friend. That said, if one were to abolish it only among women and leave men and other genders in it, you’d have the same issues I raised which would form around them. So don’t think I favor only saving women. I am talking about snatching back human sexuality from capitalism and this vile industry.
Oh my fucking god I just wrote out a big huge thoughtful response to what you said and to your other comments AND IT ALL GOT DELETED FUCK.
Ugh I really cannot bring myself to type it all up again but I definitely want to say: I wasn’t trying to engage in bad faith, and I’m sorry if I came off as inflammatory, I wasn’t trying to attack you but the language of your posts rubbed me the wrong way. Either way I do owe you an apology for that so my bad.
I went back and more carefully read through all of your posts. Over all, I definitely agree with your positions in general on exploitation, abuse, objectification, etc. I just disagree that the focus on sex work will ameliorate all of those problems as women and others are objectified and abused outside of sex work, that abuse wouldn’t stop if sex work were to stop, violence will be perpetrated in other ways. To me addressing misogyny is the bigger fish to fry as that could either make sex work obsolete, or make it into something safe where people can engage in it with actual consent and agency. But we have no idea what the outcome would be until we are in a position where the impositions of capitalism and the patriarchy are addressed. Also I did appreciate your points about women and misogyny and that got me thinking about women being willing accomplices to men in trying to perpetuate violent oppression against women in order to be “not like the others”. I also appreciated your point about treating a hobby as a job and that’s something I want to think about, and learn more about necessary vs unnecessary labor.
This kinda feels like an insinuation that I don’t think trans women are women and that’s not my position. I mentioned “people of different genders”, I didn’t single out trans women in that sentence.
edit: another thought: so I definitely believe that the voices of sex workers should be front and center in these conversations, but under communism, generally, it would be the voice of the greater majority that would dictate what is and isn’t good for the group, right? I would assume that the majority of sex workers would want to abolish it since many are forced either by another individual or by economic circumstance. In that case we can absolutely do without it, and that small minority that engage in it because they just enjoy it, should be able to sacrifice it for the betterment of the community.
Double edit: eesh I went back and re-read my comment and yeah that was a rude ass comment, embarrassing
It’s a lovely lemmy bug. I’ve had to teach myself, never stop to vote on things elsewhere or kiss your typing goodbye, also hope the thread being updated with a new comment doesn’t bork things.
I never said any particular focus on sex work is needed. I am not seeing sex work as this great big threat at the forefront some people seem to presume I am saying it as. I am simply pointing out, the Marxist position on sex work. Sex work perpetuates misogyny. You cannot abolish misogyny without abolishing it. People act like because I push back against the notion with vigor that this is okay and guys can guilt free have sex with women for money, that I’m spending all my time seething at sex workers, that I have a little book and it’s numbered enemies of women and the proletariat and at the top in red underlined 5 times with angry faces is sex work and that’s simply not the case. It is a common point of liberal infiltration in thinking I think. It’s not perhaps the most common one in the western left, but it’s up there and it really seems to stir some passions and not for wrong reasons.
I am not interested in trying to make anyone trying to survive under capitalism feel bad. I am simply stating the Marxist, feminist position on what must come after. I am attacking those who insist one of the following: a) that it is okay to pay for sex, comrades do not do that, if a woman is in need of money and in that industry and you can afford to pay her, you can afford to give her the money as aid, b) that sex work is not problematic, it’s totally feminist and should and will exist after the revolution. Which is false, dangerous, misleading.
There are those who perpetuate these things out of ignorance, genuine misogyny, material self-interest, and guilt and who are quite insistent upon spreading this frankly incorrect thinking that is damaging, dangerous, wrong, and perpetuates misogyny as I have outlined at length.
Now, frankly I have to say I’ve by this point said my piece (at great length) and I don’t think further conversation is likely to alter my thinking, change your mind, or the minds of on-lookers. So I hope this has been constructive and perhaps educational as I will not be replying further here. Thanks and good luck.
I see what you’re saying. I didn’t intend to make you feel that you needed to explain yourself in the way you did here; I think after reading through your comments again I understood much more clearly where you were coming from, and I appreciate you expanding on that even further for my benefit. My mind isn’t changed completely, but you do make very good points that I’d like to reflect on. I also wasn’t under the impression that you were trying to make anyone feel bad, and I’m sorry if I came off that way after this last response. I think a lot of my questions and statements were more rhetorical, I wasn’t trying to challenge you or change your mind, genuinely. Sometimes the way I express myself can come off more confrontational than it’s meant to be (to the exclusion of my first comment to you that was a dick comment and I feel bad for that). Anyway I respect the disengagement, and I appreciate your effort especially if it was frustrating for you, wish it wasn’t
If I understand what you are saying, and correct me if I am wrong, is that you feel as if the underlying conditions are fixed there would be no reason for sex work to be a thing. and secondly that you feel as if this proactive banning of sexwork comes off as misogynistic. would this be correct?
I also would like to ask you to not make personal attacks in GZD.
Third, some of the points you have brought up I do not, to my reading did not appear in the origional comment. The Comment you are replying to, to my reading appears to be saying. 1) People do not like thinking they are exploited so they mention it as empowering even if they still are exploited. 2) they are in society made to feel as if they cannot speak up 3) Exploitation and socity pressuring women to stay quite is unjust and 4) we as marxists must oppose injustice. @darkcalling@lemmygrad.ml please correct me if I am wrong
Sorry, I didn’t mean to come off hostile but in re-reading what I wrote I can totally see that, I’ll try to do better moving forward.
To the first thing, I think I was framing this with the context that sex work is a creation of the patriarchy and serves to perpetuate misogyny, sexism and exploitation. In response to this, I would think that focusing on the patriarchy, re-educating men and providing a much bigger emphasis on dismantling those violent concepts, then the nature of sex work would be fundamentally changed. It may even resolve itself, since there wouldn’t be pressure, coercion, and potentially there would not be a want for it as it stands now.
I think some of the points that I was speaking to was not just in the comment that I replied to but within the whole thread. The points that you enumerated I’m absolutely in agreement with, make no mistake about that. There were points that I interpreted as having an undercurrent of misogyny, I wasn’t trying to claim that darkcalling was doing that intentionally but that’s how it felt to me.