I would like to think the compromise is just improving the conditions for animals that are pets or in zoos to a golden standard.
Zoos should be as open air, integrated and, most importantly, natural and large as possible. I think it can be a invaluably positive experience for humans to see exotic animals and interact with them where possible, and if zoo conditions were excellent I don’t think the animals would mind too too much. Most zoo conditions presently, though, I would agree are insufficient at best.
As far as pets, I mostly follow Italian Messiah. I would even be good with measures some would see as extreme, such as requiring a pet license and making a social service to ensure the quality treatment of pets (when resources for such a thing are easy to spare, of course). When pets are treated well they are often indistinguishable from family and lead very happy lives. I know our cats love us and my only treatment of them that I hate is that we don’t let them go outside (coyotes, lots of traffic, petnappers; they would be gone very fast here), and I would definitely also want a world where pets have more autonomy where possible–transitioning from cars to trains/other public transport would make a huge difference in this regard. I already think, as an example, indoor-outdoor cats are essentially free individuals who stay in houses of their own free will, to whatever extent they possess it. What you call “entertainment” or “gratification” I would call love on par with having a child, which many people also certainly have for very poor, selfish reasons–many, not all. I have seen pets (and children, but I digress) all across my life who are treated in a way that greatly disturbs me. I would like to think the goal should be ensuring proper treatment, though, not abolition, just like I would want parents to teach their kids right, not to sterilize them (minus when I’m making raunchy jokes).
I do respect your perspective and I have even been there myself at some times. But it’s a tough call to make. Which is worse, being trapped in a confined area or dying of disease and swallowing a bone? Which is better, complete freedom or human love? How exactly emotional and intelligent are animals (I’m definitely not saying zero)? The ethics of either can be argued for.
I am uncomfortable with the concept of loving a living being that you consider property. Regardless how comfortably a slave lives, they are still a slave, no? Plenty of slave owners said they “loved” their slaves. Some maybe genuinely thought they did.
That’s why for me it is important to draw a distinction between humans and animals and why i find the comparison with children disturbing. I do not own my child, they are not my property. If animals are to be property then they are not “family”.
I know it’s clichee but don’t you think the expression “if you love them, set them free” applies?
I can respect that perspective.
For me it’s different because most animals are not very smart. We certainly don’t give a 4 year old child the same freedom as a 17 year old child, for example.
That being said, I do agree that I think animals should be given as much autonomy as they can. But it’s hard when, in many parts and places, that essentially just means instant death.
I would like to think the compromise is just improving the conditions for animals that are pets or in zoos to a golden standard.
Zoos should be as open air, integrated and, most importantly, natural and large as possible. I think it can be a invaluably positive experience for humans to see exotic animals and interact with them where possible, and if zoo conditions were excellent I don’t think the animals would mind too too much. Most zoo conditions presently, though, I would agree are insufficient at best.
As far as pets, I mostly follow Italian Messiah. I would even be good with measures some would see as extreme, such as requiring a pet license and making a social service to ensure the quality treatment of pets (when resources for such a thing are easy to spare, of course). When pets are treated well they are often indistinguishable from family and lead very happy lives. I know our cats love us and my only treatment of them that I hate is that we don’t let them go outside (coyotes, lots of traffic, petnappers; they would be gone very fast here), and I would definitely also want a world where pets have more autonomy where possible–transitioning from cars to trains/other public transport would make a huge difference in this regard. I already think, as an example, indoor-outdoor cats are essentially free individuals who stay in houses of their own free will, to whatever extent they possess it. What you call “entertainment” or “gratification” I would call love on par with having a child, which many people also certainly have for very poor, selfish reasons–many, not all. I have seen pets (and children, but I digress) all across my life who are treated in a way that greatly disturbs me. I would like to think the goal should be ensuring proper treatment, though, not abolition, just like I would want parents to teach their kids right, not to sterilize them (minus when I’m making raunchy jokes).
I do respect your perspective and I have even been there myself at some times. But it’s a tough call to make. Which is worse, being trapped in a confined area or dying of disease and swallowing a bone? Which is better, complete freedom or human love? How exactly emotional and intelligent are animals (I’m definitely not saying zero)? The ethics of either can be argued for.
I am uncomfortable with the concept of loving a living being that you consider property. Regardless how comfortably a slave lives, they are still a slave, no? Plenty of slave owners said they “loved” their slaves. Some maybe genuinely thought they did.
That’s why for me it is important to draw a distinction between humans and animals and why i find the comparison with children disturbing. I do not own my child, they are not my property. If animals are to be property then they are not “family”.
I know it’s clichee but don’t you think the expression “if you love them, set them free” applies?
I can respect that perspective. For me it’s different because most animals are not very smart. We certainly don’t give a 4 year old child the same freedom as a 17 year old child, for example. That being said, I do agree that I think animals should be given as much autonomy as they can. But it’s hard when, in many parts and places, that essentially just means instant death.