I truly hope he doesn’t turn out the way I think he will turn out. I know we have a lot of people on here who love Mamdani, and I’m not trying to pick a fight. But goddamn, he’s not beating the allegations these days.
You must log in or # to comment.
Zohran will remain better than both of these provided his foreign policy takes remain in line with anti-imperialism. The main difference between these two and someone like Corbyn is that the two of them consistently support imperialist foreign policy while Corbyn lands on the correct side of basically every foreign policy issue.
i was at the rally, honestly, he really pushed the fact that people need to show up to push for what they need, which is something i’ve grown to believe in. He wont have the answers, he wont be able to affect all the change, but he implored people to show up, to bring solutions.
Even as an ML, we still have to get our asses out there and being present doing shit, even among lib spaces. We can do a lot more vs complaining online.
Lenin relentlessly advocated for electoralism. He did so at the start of his revolutionary path, and defended that position 20 years later, after the Bolsheviks succeeded. The through line between “What I’d to be done?” and “Left-Wing Communism” is that electoralism as a strategy of agitation should be utilized. America doesn’t even have a working class electoral party. The strategy of entryism into the Democratic Party is only driving a wedge between the DSA and the Dems. Especially as the Dems become more openly fascist. Its not going to last so long as strict anti-zionist lines are maintained. What happens after that is up to the different factions within the DSA.
deleted by creator
Yes, and I 100% agree with you on all points. There is no party doing point A, like you said, only doing point B. I simply get the feeling that some comrades in this thread who would still see point A and still tell you you’re falling for it.
Im not saying DSA is doing A, that much is true. They have the ability to start doing A however, and caucuses inside the DSA want to do A, and are lobbying to do A from what I’ve been lead to believe by people in the organization.
But again, some people think any electoralism is falling for it, and draw no distinction between A and B.
that stresses the importance of showing up. otherwise we’re doing “pales in comparison to my strategy of blowing up walmarts, and not blowing up walmarts” which is that most valid criticism of western leftists on online platforms. People who do things talk a lot differently than people who ruminate on their keyboards wishing for a better world.
Yeah I tend to agree. Honestly I don’t know how someone could read Lenin and not feel compelled to show up. I know that’s the feeling I have after cramming all his works for the last two months.
people think that thoughts are easily distilled in memes like they aren’t swirling messy things that take a while to figure out, even for yourself. It works for reactionaries because they only need to prod the swirly cloud of incoherence towards something and emotions do the rest, and philosophy and political texts are hard to read when you dont have the frame work set up to understand it.
So people just dont read the works sometimes. You can always tell. Hell, i haven’t finished many of the readings admittedly.
I try to keep in mind that Zohran was endorsed by Norm Finkelstein in June. I don’t think the Norm Finkelstein supports Bernie or AOC.
I sincerely hope he doesn’t crap out on us, I do. I’m just having a hard time staying positive about it.
he’s running for mayor and can’t be president (until after arnold i guess) there’s a ceiling on how bad he could be
actual genuine open question: do any Mamdani boosters/supporters actually think he will be able to do his programme? Albany AND Washington are diametrically opposed.
But I am a Mamdani booster because there hasn’t been a spotless candidate like him in the national consciousness. Literally no real people dislike him or disagree with his policies. when he loses (not the election, doing the platform), which he WILL, it presents an unavoidable question to masses of yankeeland who are forced to pay attention to new york.
if bougie-ass NYC can’t do it peacefully, nowhere can. that’s what this actually represents.
it presents an unavoidable question to masses of yankeeland who are forced to pay attention to new york.
Yup, the pile of unavoidable questions can only get so big before people will be forced to start a new pile.
hey he’s hardly Al Gore let me hope
gonna be on back orderIf you never hope for anything to go right you can’t be hurt when it goes wrong. We’re all very impressed with your gloomy forecasts and how cool and indifferent and definitely not hurt you are.
Please read reform or revolution and stop being so patronising with this attempted psychological profile of me because I don’t believe voting for liberals achieves the aims of the working class. It isn’t about manifesting something good to happen this time vs having a negative outlook, it’s about a historical materialist understanding of past events likely predicting future events. I feel like hitting you with a “deeply unserious” for that comment tbh but I can’t quite be that guy.
And you can go read Left Wing Communism: an Infantile Disorder, and see Lenin talk about working with electoral socialists.
I don’t even have a dog in this fight, I’m just tired of people calling everything a failure without the epistemic standing to do so. It’s an experiment in progress and some of your comrades here are directly involved in its execution. Some critical support seems the least we can afford them until it has concluded. In the mean time it reeks of sectarianism or doomerism to me, and that too might qualify as deeply unserious.
Wild that you’re leveling death wishes on comrades for finding this shit grating.
I’d love for you to find a single line of Lenin that endorses supporting liberal candidates running in bourgeois elections representing a capitalist imperialist party. It doesn’t exist which is why you just gesture vaguely towards it.
Shall we actually quote Left Wing Communism?
Frankly acknowledging a mistake, ascertaining the reasons for it, analysing the conditions that have led up to it, and thrashing out the means of its rectification—that is the hallmark of a serious party; that is how it should perform its duties, and how it should educate and train its class, and then the masses. By failing to fulfil this duty and give the utmost attention and consideration to the study of their patent error, the “Lefts” in Germany (and in Holland) have proved that they are not a party of a class, but a circle, not a party of the masses, but a group of intellectualists and of a few workers who ape the worst features of intellectualism.
Even if only a fairly large minority of the industrial workers, and not “millions” and “legions”, follow the lead of the Catholic clergy—and a similar minority of rural workers follow the landowners and kulaks (Grossbauern)—it undoubtedly signifies that parliamentarianism in Germany has not yet politically outlived itself, that participation in parliamentary elections and in the struggle on the parliamentary rostrum is obligatory ON THE PARTY OF THE REVOLUTIONARY PROLETARIAT specifically for the purpose of educating the backward strata of its own class, and for the purpose of awakening and enlightening the undeveloped, downtrodden and ignorant rural masses. Whilst you lack the strength to do away with bourgeois parliaments and every other type of reactionary institution, you must work within them because it is there that you will still find workers who are duped by the priests and stultified by the conditions of rural life; otherwise you risk turning into nothing but windbags.
You want to create a new society, yet you fear the difficulties involved in forming a good parliamentary group made up of CONVINCED, DEVOTED AND HEROIC COMMUNISTS, in a reactionary parliament!
Emphasis mine. Lenin explicitly states that yes, as long as the parliamentary form remains relevant to less class conscious sections of the working class, it can be useful for proletarian revolutionary parties to enter those parliaments, even if just for agitational/propaganda purposes. Members of a proletarian party (call it a CP, call it whatever you want, a democratically central organisation for proletarian revolution) who are elected to those offices are beholden to proletarian party discipline. They can’t just win office and immediately betray the workers like every liberal politician does - at least it is less likely and has some consequences for the class traitor.
Literally nowhere in Lenin does it say “communists should throw their support behind milquetoast social democrats running in the party that stands for murderous imperialism and capitalism in its worst form”.
Now I am going to call you deeply unserious. Please go to bluesky or something if you’re going to be this liberal and hold such indefensible positions then attempt to defend them with vibe based analysis.
Also, death threats? I literally have no idea what you are talking about lol. Grow up.
So I’m the idiot for knowing the extremely common meme. I didn’t say death threats, I said death wishes. What the fuck did you think you were evoking? Check yourself and your moment of being the asshole.
We’re both on 5 year accounts, let’s not let a simple disagreement turn into actual bad blood. I appreciate you contributing interesting and educational analysis to the conversation above. That’s a lot more useful than essentially calling our comrades here working with the campaign now liberals out of hand. Frankly, I was just turning your invocation of theory around on you because if you’re going to pull it as a cheap dismissal so will I. You didn’t offer the suggestion in good faith and neither did I, so don’t pretend you’re on the high ground on that lmao. My interjections across this post is to say the dooming and disrespect being shown to people putting in real work on this is uncomradely and unnecessarily divisive until the evidence is in, nothing more. It’s not all about you and your psycho social profile, simply meeting your glib energy. I’m not an electoralist or tailist myself so no, I’m not going to go digging for a quote for a position I don’t support.
There may be an interesting conversation to be had about whether the material conditions of Lenin’s time can even remotely be compared to our own given how meek and completely off the radar leftist theory is from public consciousness in America, and that may entail that previously unviable strategies might be worthwhile transitory ones at least until socialist theory gains wider recognition. I mean, just look at how many people radicalized after/during Bernie’s campaign. Did it achieve socialism? Of course not, but it shook off the brain worms from the word itself for a lot of people who were red scare polluted because it was just part of the cultural zeitgeist.
But I suggest we cool it and post again on better terms another day. You get what you put out into the world and we’re both tasting venom.
from not an American: I don’t see what is gained here by constantly going over whether he is a lib or Lenin reborn- how many people on this site can even vote in the NYC mayor election? Of those people how many are even going to vote? Anyone on this site who can and does vote in this election is going to vote for him. No offense OP cause I mean this for the general Zohran posting, but at what point does it just become shit stirring?
Not just that, but Bernie is a well-known and possibly the best-liked senator and AOC a popular rep whose district is in NYC. What, should Mamdani have just snubbed them? “Pack it up, it’s my show now”
How to lose an election: appeal only to a tiny sliver of MLs on a website.
Have you not been listening to the Lemmy Libs? Hexbear alone has the power to decide every single election in the US!
Hexbear alone has the power to decide every single election in the US!
You would think if leftists had the power to decide elections than we would get basic concessions to secure our support.
I would have voted for Harris if she had promised a ceasefire, even with her dog shit domestic policies. If you can’t even lie to get my support why should I give a shit?
their (lemmy libs’) enemy (us) is both weak and strong
I’d still rather NYC be governed by this guy than the other options
There is what appears to be a professional photographer/videographer set up on the decently-lit side giving an Office Jim look into the camera clearly thinking “this picture is going to look like shit.” She was right.
Holy shit he took a photo with people who endorsed him. Fuck! Its OVER! This is doomer behavior.
Touch grass.
while it’s understandable for him to seek to validate his image by associating with whatever “American left” exists, it’s obviously worth noting that the cost of pursuing an electoral strategy is that you have to constantly compromise on your principles for the sake of popularity, associating with ghouls like Alexandria “Defensive Weaponry for Israel” Ocasio Cortez and Bernie “I support Israel” Sanders. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.we know better but the majority of people think the healthcare guy is about the extent of the left in american politics (and they’re not that wrong electorally speaking). we could shout in public about how he’s a liberal zionist who won’t say it’s a genocide and won’t commit to an arms embargo (and we should, fuck bernie and fuck most of “the squad”) but that’s going to be incomprehensible to almost everybody else and is probably not a good way to campaign for mayor.
Zohran is not the revolution, nobody expects him to be the revolution. He literally campaigned in the primary on some of these “compromises” like the cop shit and previously said some weak ass shit about Israel when the racists kept pressing the muslim guy about it.
Mao quote.
Whelp, revolution it is then.
What are you going to do?
I know some MAGA folks in New York whose faces I’m laughing at when they panic about the rise of the Communist Ummah. Don’t know anyone from NYC who I could tell to vote or to bring up my criticisms to other people in, like, DSA circles or whatever. I think it would be nice if the people on the ground understood that this is a betrayal and not “hiding his power level” though.
allegations
What did he do or is accused of doing?
deleted by creator
“to beat the allegations” means to dispel negative ideas about oneself by acting better. If there are rumors that someone is misogynistic but his woman coworker describes him glowingly, one may say that he beat the misogyny allegations.
In this case, there’s a possibility Zohran will just be another AOC. He could beat the allegations, but he isn’t beating them yet.
He definitionally can’t beat the allegations until elected. It’s an empirical question. We didn’t sour on AOC and Bernie until they used their power and platform for sheep dogging, not before.
People who think appearing at a campaign event with other nominally left and, to a certain base, very popular politicians, is a betrayal to the working class and a hindrance to the revolution are maybe being ultras in my humble opinion. Hardcore failing the rule of “be normal.”
People who think appearing at a campaign event with other nominally left and, to a certain base, very popular politicians, is a betrayal to the working class and a hindrance to the revolution are maybe being ultras in my humble opinion. Hardcore failing the rule of “be normal.”
The criticism on Hexbear of AOC and Bernie are valid. But I also think that tends to lead a lot of users here to assume that means that sentiment is broadly shared with left-leaning voters. There’s way more voters out there that think they represent a workable vision for a better future than voters that will stay home on election day because they seem them as tainted.
100%. People compliment me when I talk about committed COMMUNIST political education by saying I remind them of big name Dem-Sucs, Bernie and AOC included. In one sense I of course know that’s incoherent, and in another sense it’s almost an insult lmao, but to the largely ignorant and incoherent “leftist” or liberal who I’m trying to convince, it’s their highest compliment. I smile and say thank you, and politely insist that I’m actually quite different and I’m happy to help them understand why.
It’s part of being normal.
He has already won the nomination in a blue city; November will be just to make it official. Yet even though he is essentially the de facto mayor already, he has made significant slides to the right since winning, all to appease the dnc bosses. I’m not sure how old you were during Bernie’s first presidential run, but that shit burned most of us on so-called “progressives”. I guess you all will just have to experience it for yourselves.
half or more of the dem establishment are still trying to stop him, there was another socialist mayoral candidate who won a primary in Buffalo, NY who the party undermined and backed their shitbag guy who she beat.
let him break fucking campaign promises before dooming.
Not going to comment on policy positions, but he certainly has not won the race outright. He won the primary handily, but an independent Cuomo is still a threat to him especially if Adams drops out. Trump was literally offering Adams a federal position to do so and Cuomo is the media favorite. The establishments of capital are organizing to sink Mamdani in the general and he has to run to make it past the finish line, not victory lap.
I don’t think it’s a clear race yet with Cuomo and Silwa still trying to triangulate some kind of spoiler upset. Winning a broad election means appealing to a broad base. Democrats lie about how progressive they are all the time and then carry the status quo, it’s about time the reverse happens. Either way, coming out into a general campaign with the idiocy of the average American and preaching about the merits of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism is a recipe for losing no matter the underlying circumstances, whether you won the nomination of the blue party or not. I’m not going to deny that the strategy and messaging moderated going into the general, but isn’t that exactly what you would do if you were a committed communist trying to get into a major political office to use its power to advance the workers struggle? Who cares if you have to lie and smile next to some ghouls if it let you do real good? Still though, the allegations are all tea leaf reading and speculation until proven. Awfully silly to start counting rotten eggs before they’ve even been laid.
And I was old enough, don’t you worry. I’m on a 5 year old account after all. I just find doomers dooming to be tiring and will point out the unfalsifiable nature of the allegations until they’re settled, because that’s all we can do. Don’t see the point in casting such venom on a hypothetical.
Is anyone around here sating that this is a betrayal to the working class and a hindrance to the revolution? I’m among the most Zohran-critical users here who haven’t been banned and I’ve just been saying that all the compromises he’s made are compromises all the same, regardless of how reasonable they are in the context of his campaign. Once he’s mayor he’ll keep making more compromises because he’ll want to be re-elected.
Does that mean people shouldn’t vote for him and work for the campaign? Absolutely not. But obviously people need to know the difference between an electoralist strategy and a revolutionary strategy, and understand that if they’re pursuing a revolutionary strategy they can’t be married to Zohran either (as much of an outlier as he is).
“Ultra” was a term coined to critique those that refused to work with electoral socialists on the mission towards revolution, ironically enough. Critique the viability of electoralism all you want, but some electoralists see that as a viable strategy to advance the militancy and political education of the working class in service to eventual revolution. Pitting electoralism and revolution against each other is misrepresenting their position.
“Once he’s Mayor he’ll keep making concessions…” Maybe. That’s another empirical question that can’t be predicted at this point. I don’t see the point in continuing to bemoan the demon-rattification of him before he’s even elected and thus insulated by statutory structures of the office. If I were a militant communist seeking to undermine the US government, I certainly wouldn’t lead with that in my public campaign. I’d wait until I was in office to start actually pulling levers of power, and that seems almost so obvious it shouldn’t need to be stated, unless for some reason you think the average USian is ready for that kind of messaging… In which case I’m going to call you an Ultra. This time in the sense of “advocating a strategy beyond the conditions of the current readiness of the working class.”
Ultra" was a term coined to critique those that refused to work with electoral socialists on the mission towards revolution, ironically enough. Critique the viability of electoralism all you want, but some electoralists see that as a viable strategy to advance the militancy and political education of the working class in service to eventual revolution. Pitting electoralism and revolution against each other is misrepresenting their position.
You’re misunderstanding me. When I said “electoralist strategy” I meant the strategy of using bourgeois elections to elect socialists and achieve socialism. The tactic of using elections to serve the needs of a revolutionary organization is 100% valid as part of a revolutionary strategy. Don’t confuse tactics and strategy, that’s also a classic Ultra thing.
Well, is that not the confusion you’re potentially making critiquing Mamdani’s current tactics? I wouldn’t presume to know his closely held political convictions, because unless you’re an idiot and believe the stupid shit that you have to say to get elected, you’re not going to get into office without moderating the message somewhere along the way. I suspect only his closest advisors and DSA peers know his actual political convictions. The rest is all hearsay or speculation of one kind or another, whether it be wishcasting or dooming.
My skepticism comes from certain unforced errors like how he’s moderating his message now that there’s less pressure on him than during the primary. Walking back “globalize the intifada” after it had already played out and hadn’t hurt him in the primary, meeting with NYC business leaders that the pigs were happy with, and similar worrying things (and yes, as you said, this could all be a disguise, but I don’t know how many times I’m gonna allow myself to get burned thinking that). Obviously his campaign staff know the situation better than I do, but it seems more like the local Dems are letting him win then will screw him once he’s mayor, it in which case there is little reason to triangulate now.
If he had the backing of an organization that didn’t have DSA’s bad reputation I’d give him more of a benefit of the doubt.
Also, hold on, he’s never claimed to be anything but a DemSoc. I don’t see why I should make a headcanon that he’s a secret Leninist. Again, that doesn’t mean that getting him in power isn’t helpful to the broader strategy, but it’s also not central.
i don’t understand what people are shocked about with this photo. the demsucc running for election is standing with the big elected demsuccs. why was there ever anyone who ever thought he wasnt this type of dude? and thats not even me saying anything bad about him. he’s in american politics and the cia hasn’t murdered him yet. what else is he going to be?
In other news, ideology that has literally never failed in its predictions since its invention continues to make predictions that will be proven right much to the dismay of liberals
