Hey, tankies, decent countries don’t have to violently suppress their populations and then lie about it. Oh, and socialism is worker ownership of the means of production, not whatever the fuck they’re doing in China.
(inb4 people assuming I must support the US since I hate China)
Decent countries. What a slippery slope for supremacist thoughts.
It’s really amazing to see just how racist mainstream liberals are, and now the masks are just coming off because they see they don’t have to hide their racism anymore.
Ah yes.
Being against China’s racist genocide is racist.
China, the imperialist ethno-state, is clearly innocent.
the alternative reality you inhabit sounds fascinating
Lol. Thinking some countries have better governments than others is supremacist? Whatever, dude.
By the way. If there are any countries with decent governments, I don’t know of them. But like. If there were decent countries, they wouldn’t behave like China.
Saying “decent countries” clearly has a perverse slip within the thought, the idea of a collective I in the our countries and an objectifying negation of the I in the other group. Basically good ol’ civilisation and barbarians. The same rhetoric you and your people have been using to oppress me and my third world brothers and sisters all around the world. You really think you need to do the missionary work of educating the beasts, don’t you?
Removed by mod
Eyeroll. Literally said in the first message that I don’t support the US, but yes, clearly it’s us (countries I don’t support) vs. them (countries I also don’t support). The only possible reason one could think China is an oppressive hellhole is racism, I guess. Never mind that I also think Western countries are oppressive hellholes. But clearly thinking two things are bad at once means you actually like one of them. Christ, you’re like the bizarro world version of conservatives who think that hating America means you support China. Tankies really are just libs who simp for different countries.
Educating the beasts in third-world countries? I don’t have time for that. I’m too busy trying to fix my own shithole country. Are a lot of people in third-world countries wrong about shit? Yeah, obviously. But I think most people in the world are wrong about shit, because most of them aren’t libsocs. Me disagreeing with you doesn’t make you special. If thinking a specific group has it wrong means you’re prejudiced against them, apparently I’m prejudiced against 99.7% of the world. And I’m pretty sure most people in third-world countries aren’t state capitalists, so I guess you must be prejudiced against them too for disagreeing with them.
Why is it that you tankies always ignore that anarchists, libsocs, and other non-tankie leftists spend much more time fighting libs and fascists than we do fighting you? We make fun of you online. We argue with you when you say dumb shit. We don’t march against you in the streets, except in countries where you rule over us. The effort we dedicate to you is really minuscule compared to how we fight and die trying to change the right-wing status quo. And yet, somehow that counts for nothing when you need to claim that our disagreements with you are rooted in bigotry.
decent countries don’t have to violently suppress their populations and then lie about it
Yeah, “decent” (read: western) countries can just do it and not talk about it because liberals will gladly work on their behalf and deny that it ever happens or deflect to repost lies about global south countries like they do with China.
A Wikileaks cable from the US Embassy in Beijing (sent in July 1989) also reveals the eyewitness accounts of a Latin American diplomat and his wife: “They were able to enter and leave the [Tiananmen] square several times and were not harassed by troops. Remaining with students … until the final withdrawal, the diplomat said there were no mass shootings in the square or the monument.”
https://worldaffairs.blog/2019/06/02/tiananmen-square-massacre-facts-fiction-and-propaganda/
https://www.workers.org/2022/06/64607/
https://videos.files.wordpress.com/mPSOWUUU/tank-man-2_dvd.mp4
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/89BEIJING18828_a.html
Here’s an interesting video that I hope will make you question if Marxist-Leninists are really the ones you should be calling “tankies”: https://files.catbox.moe/rpzgus.webm
All states are fundamentally violent, what are you imagining to be a “decent” country where there is no violence by the state?
Removed by mod
In a Marxist sense, any class society has a state, but that’s a little beside the point.
Removed by mod
Well, aside from that violence does still exist outside of states as you say, it was to explain my earlier comment about all states being violent, since their role is to mediate class antagonisms, which has historically manifested as the owning classes keeping the bulk of the working classes in a state of desperation for the sake of manipulating bartering power.
Removed by mod
It always frustrates me a little when people look at a problem and say “that’s just how things are.” Here it’s the thing about humans being violent. In a trivial sense, that is true, but I think that obfuscates that in most situations violence has a set of politically-meaningful sources, even if it’s personal violence. Being beaten as a child, being forced into crime, being taught that violence is appropriate to protect your “pride”, the Other being dehumanized, the list goes on.
There’s a difference between a country that has a monopoly on violence and can use that for enforcement, compared to a state that responds to people just making their voices heard with cannons and guns. A cat nipping my fingers is annoying. A lion gnawing my head off is deadly.
The crackdown wasn’t against the peaceful protestors who they let just kind of do their thing under supervision for somewhere around 6 weeks despite it basically being the equivalent of the section of Pennsylvania Avenue in front of the White House. The CPC became less friendly as it became aware of NED bullshit and, critically, unarmed soldiers being immolated and lynched by militants who were using naive protestors as cover. The CPC nonetheless gave everyone some time to clear out (I forget the time table but I think it was 24 - 72 hours) and even once it was over the deadline they didn’t just start blasting.
The problem with this is that we don’t really know if it’s true. It’s the CPC’s official story, but they’ve created an atmosphere so hostile to truth or transparency that it’s not trustworthy.
Really? West have been blatantly manufacturing atrocity and you say China created “hostile atmosphere”?
I do. Where’s the Chinese equivalent to the FOIA that allows citizens to force officials to release documents? There isn’t one, because the CPC doesn’t value that type of accountability.
That goalpost was moved so far the astronomy should go into that. There’s a lot of links posted here, but from previous conversations you have unique ability of completely ignoring everything, so what’s even the point?
See, this is a sort of epistemic nihilism that is used for question-begging the western narrative. I give you a counterproposition and you say “Well the CPC is so untrustworthy that we just can’t know that that’s true!”
Which part do you doubt? That the protest had been going on for many weeks? We have contemporaneous reports. That the CPC wasn’t very hostile to the protestors for most of that period? We have footage of the protestors and unarmed soldiers coexisting – sometimes even having something of a fun time together, each group singing songs!
We have photographs of the lynched corpses, with the protestors idly looking on (because what else could they do?). We have contemporaneous reporting on the CPC setting a deadline for the square to be fled. We have footage of one of the more radical student leaders, Chai Ling, saying that she will deliberately direct her clique to stay (even as she flees) so that they will shed blood.
We have a smaller amount of footage of the night itself, but that tells us many things. For example, there was a protestor (not a student) who was on a high-profile hunger strike. He negotiated the peaceful evacuation of a group of students who didn’t quite realize what they were signing up for by staying. We also have some distant footage of the fighting in the surrounding area (because the square itself didn’t see violence, as even western journalists confirmed).
The 1984 narrative Reddit spoonfeeds people is incredibly flimsy, even if all you do is look at reporting from Brits, Americans, and Germans.
Speaking of, have you ever watched the full Tank Man video? You can find it on Youtube quite easily. If you haven’t seen it, please do me a favor and predict what happens and write it down for yourself – no need to show anyone else, myself included. Then, watch what happens and compare that to your guess. I think you will find it to be an interesting exercise.
compared to a state that responds to people just making their voices heard with cannons and guns
Oh you mean the way your country does regularly at home and abroad?
Removed by mod
Yeah, China doesn’t do those things, like UK arresting anti-monarquie protestors. Or Canada arresting truckers. Or France arresting people who doesn’t want to work untill they die…
Removed by mod
Your instance doesn’t federate with the “tankies” so you won’t even see my comment. Who is suppressing who?
false equivalence much?
In the real world, vast majority of the population in China supports their government. You hate china because you’re brainwashed. Plain and simple.
Disgusting Anglo supremacists, I can count on you 11/10 times.
Don’t ever let anyone forget or brush under the rug the horrible acts that occurred in Tiananmen Square on June 4th, 1989.
https://www.history.com/topics/asian-history/tiananmen-square
deleted by creator
No thanks. I don’t give a fuck about getting ratio’d. Let the people decide. Assuming this platform ever gets more traction, which it seems to be doing, the vast majority of the people that come here won’t be tankies so… no, no I don’t think I will go somewhere else.
These people really want their echo chamber, not a good look for Lemmy imo
Indeed, the “they’re all a bunch of tankies over there” narrative is one of the more common objections I see to Lemmy when I mention it as a valid Reddit alternative over on Reddit. Bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, mind you - we need non-tankies to balance things out. Here’s hoping that there’s enough new blood coming in anyway to manage that.
One of the main reasons I’ve switched over to feddit.de. Hope more instances have the sense to block servers that are openly pro-imperialism and pro-totalitarianism.
Why make/go to another political echo chamber over potentially getting “ratio’d” (which is meaningless and doesnt say anything about one’s argument). Anyone has the right to post something no matter what people around think. Posting all this on an instance that would be INSTANTLY defederated by instances like lemmygrad is pointless and we’d just end up with less debate and more polarization.
Hey, I just wanted to clarify something because I wasn’t sure from reading your comment, but Lemmygrad federates with everyone by default, except instances that have caused us troll waves in the past. We federate with e.g. lemmy.one and beehaw.org, but they instantly blocked us on day one.
We do also block the nazis
I think that tankies, arguably, are hardly leftists at all.
Looking at the community, all I see is Red-Draped Reactionaries.
deleted by creator
Nice job trying to justify the Tiananmen Square massacre. Now can you justify the detention of 32 people and the restriction of the square itself which took place yesterday?
I call bullshit on this view of the things. I have no desire to explain in detail but I lived in one of those countries and my dad was in front of those tanks.
deleted by creator
Bold claim. Evidence?
The specific incident as remembered by the director of the “Ziemowit” mine in Lędziny: https://noweinfo.pl/chcialem-ich-ratowac-jak-gornicy-kwk-ziemowit-sprzeciwili-sie-stanowi-wojennemu/ just days after they killed 9 people in a close by mine called “Wujciek” https://ipn.gov.pl/pl/aktualnosci/38063,Pacyfikacja-kopalni-Wujek-najwieksza-zbrodnia-stanu-wojennego.html
I’m interested in Marx ideas of communism and find them intriguing, but Stalin and Mao, fuck those guys, and the people who try to cover for them fuck you too, you are terrible assholes and you don’t deserve to be engaged with.
What are you talking about this is clearly not in china.
I replied to the guy who wanted evidence that my dad was in front of the communist tanks. I never said it was in China, I said I lived in one of those countries, which in this case was Poland. I thought this is Worldnews so we don’t only talk about China.
But Ok, for some reason it got deleted by the moderator. I see. I guess it’s best to block that instance from my side, my involvment doesn’t lead to anything here.
So your polish dad was in front of chinese tanks?
I’m convinced you’ve never read the works that I, the Carl Marks, wrote.
My uncle’ works at Nintendo, you have no idea what’s coming your way!!!
Hey, that’s not possible because MY dad was in front of those tanks!
Your dad was a traitor to his country.
Wow. There’s a lot of CCP folks working the federated space.
One of the big instances, Lemmygrad, is basically dedicated to that crowd. If the influx of Reddit refugees doesn’t counterbalance them then at some point I’ll probably move to an instance that doesn’t federate with them.
I’ve already done the same, can recommend it
Could just block it, that way you don’t have to see it, and don’t have to start a new account.
Sure, though I like the idea of more explicitly supporting instances with better quality control.
Seems like there’s also no way around blocking individual users who openly support fascists.
Meanwhile in Taiwan, the island’s equivalent of the Tiananmen massacre from the KMT dictatorship (the 228 incident) has its own memorial park and museum.
No need for a self-inflicted legitimacy crisis when you respect your citizens’ basic rights.
When USA can have a China puppet government, just like US puppet DPP exists in Taiwan (part of China BTW), we can talk about legitimacy crisis. I wonder if Confederate States once again united to divide USA, how would Americans talk to outsiders having nuanced conversations, considering, losing to China in all kinds of fields already makes their citizens wish for nukes.
If you’re not Taiwanese yourself (i.e., one of the people who’s actually affected by what happens there), I definitely don’t care about your opinion on this topic.
I did not know other people could not shut down BS that gets spouted by ignoramuses or malicious state propagandists.
I’m not sure I understand China’s reactions here… if nothing happened, then why not just let them congregate and “remember” something that supposedly didn’t happen? What’s the harm? If they were blocking traffic or riots were involved, it would understandable to want to stop it, but if it’s peaceful, where’s the harm? Unless of course, something did happen that they want people to forget…
China doesn’t say nothing happened, what they say is that counter revolution happened, and it was effectively suppressed. Why would you let someone celebrate the equivalent of an extremist movement?
Corrupt, murderous dictatorships rarely tolerate accurate recollections of history.
You must have experience with that, it’s what you’ve been doing for the last 200 years.
It’s almost as if Chinese Imperialism, genocide and ethnic cleansing is still bad even if the West built its powerbase on Imperialism.
How many colonies does China have? How many countries has it invaded? How many wars has waged?
Fascists like you and followers of the capitalist death cult can only say this: Tibet, because they drove the feudal lords and dalai lama paedophiles; Taiwan, because the bourgeois dictatorship claimed that land as theirs, as if it isn’t historically all one China, a similar story with Malvinas, I guess you also think they belong to the British; Hong Kong, which was a British colony but for some twisted reason you think they should be it’s own thing, because again it historically has not belong to China; the Uyghur thing, which even Western sources deny and/or doubt of its veracity and which was propelled by a right-wing organisation pro US imperialism; and delirious ideas about China being “imperialist” in Africa or South America because it trades with them and builds infrastructure, instead of providing bogus “financial aids” which then end up in the hands of US puppets like you did in Argentina with IMF funds. So basically all of the “imperialism” you claim is China trying to recover its historical territories lost in the process of the proletarian revolution.
Meanwhile, I don’t see any of the likes of you denouncing the plethora of colonies Europe and the US has been having and continue having for centuries. Why are you no so openly in favour of a Hawai’ian independence movement but you are so fervently obsessed with China? I know why, because you have fascists freudian slips and you can’t even realise about it yourself, since you live surrounded by people who justify themselves, and you have never interacted with a person from the Global South that’s not a fascist. By the way, the things I’m telling you, this is not “tankie” stuff, I have Peronists friends, Trotskyists friends, and all over the spectrum in Argentina, and they all know what you people say is complete and utter disgusting, the thought that everyone agrees with this kind of thought is something only maintained in first world imperialist countries. Don’t fool yourself.
Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Tibet are all Colonies of China, which it treats as Colonial Territories, by -
Forcibly destroying the local culture. Forcefully extracting to harm of the locals. Genocide, abuse, kidnapping, rape.
But there is no point in engaging to you. You are a liar. You know you are. When you deny genocides, you put yourself on the same side as the fascists and reactionaries of the past.
Yeah, don’t bother. Tankies are red fascists.
Yup, tankies are fascists under a new name.
You’re a racist
Doesn’t that make you more seriously consider that the CPC’s position on this issue has been misrepresented?
Wow a post on lemmy denouncing the CCPs actions instead of denying them or even trying to justify them? Thats rare
I plan on actively posting to counter the constant barrage of tankie propaganda that is very clearly an issue here. Misinformation is a very real issue that we face in our society and unless we actually do something about it, it will only continue to get worse.
Removed by mod
It is a very real issue so it’d be nice if you’d stopped doing it yourself. Also this is not world news, this is a China news, world news is not whatever the US and its European eunuchs oppose to.
Also this is not world news, this is a China news,
Is china not part of the world? lmao
I’m not saying there can’t be news about China, what I’m saying, and I’ve seen this a multitude of times, is that there is something that Usonians and Europeans do a lot, is that they post news about their countries as if they would be the world. In my book “World News” means something the entire world should care about, not just the Anglosphere and Europe, the description seems just a silly thing to put as a placeholder, at least that’s how it has always worked in this community, news that the entire world cares about. It is a good rule that something global would involve at least 2 countries, or some event that it is really worth mentioning, like a natural disaster in some country, etc.
times, is that there is something that Usonians and Europeans do a lot, is that they post news about their countries as if they would be the world. In my book “World News” means something the entire world should care about, not just the Anglosphere and Europe, the description seems just a silly thing to put as a placeholder, at least that’s how it has always worked in this community, news that the entire world cares about. It is a good rule that something global would involve at least 2 countries, or some event that it is really worth mentioning, like a natural disaster in some country, etc.
A simple glance at the news articles being posted here is a direct contradiction to all of this, where are you in those those threads?
??? Give examples, I’ve recently reported various posts for similar issues and some have been removed.
You are the same redditor who loves r/worldnews and reddit frontpage chock filled with USA news 24/7/365. You are so used to living in your privileged echo chamber, that you cannot believe people outside of USA are not obsessed with koolaid culture, let alone talking critically and positively about non-USA/Europe countries.
Interesting since this post is about china not the USA but you are the ones butt hurt that it exists here
I gave reputable sources for my information. Please enlighten me as to how spreading this news and reminding everyone of the very real Tiananmen Square massacre that occurred on June 4th, 1989 is misinformation.
Here you have a list of different types of media that talk about what happened, in short it was a counter revolution backed by the bourgeoisie where they tried to basically bring back the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and overthrown the dictatorship of the proletariat. I don’t think we’re going to get to any conclusion because you already seem to have the neoliberal capitalist ideology too ingrained in your mind, which is okay I guess. I really don’t care about what you believe, but what I do think is reasonable is that this is not world news. It’s always what about, what about with you liberals. What about China, what about North Korea, what about Cuba, but why don’t you try and look a little bit under your own rug? Because there seems to be quite a bit of hidden corpses in your back lawn, they smell disgusting and you try to hide it with other countries inner struggles. If the world were to mass shit post like you people do every time an anniversary of a massacre, repression, illegal occupation or invasion, pillaging and destruction of a country, slavery and what not you have committed, every day would be memorial day of the countless atrocities you have committed. Let’s be a little less hypocrites, no country is perfect, but the US and Wester Europe are at the top list of the worst, so don’t come pretending like you are beacons of democracy and hope. In the Global South, where I live, you are considered butchers and beasts.
https://www.liberationnews.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/ https://leohezhao.medium.com/notes-for-30th-anniversary-of-tiananmen-incident-f098ef6efbc2 https://peds-ansichten.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/1989-07-12_Lilley_Gallo_Tiananmen_WikiLeaks.pdf https://vimeo.com/448970787 http://www.fightbacknews.org/2019/6/4/reflections-tiananmen-square-and-attempt-end-chinese-socialism https://frso.org/main-documents/looking-back-at-tiananmen-square-the-defeat-of-counter-revolution-in-china/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu3zmbFGwQA https://old.reddit.com/r/AskAChinese/comments/grdaqv/thoughts_on_tiananmen_square_massacre/g45hnv0/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6RT_s1T050 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqPI8xlnrwg
Okay, let’s go through this slowly and rationally.
First of all, this community is self described as being “News from around the world!” China is a part of the world and this is news from China. This is news from around the world. If you are trying to insinuate that any post involving news from China does not belong in this community then why did you not seem to take issue with this post that was also about China and was posted in this community?
Clearly you take issue with the fact that this news paints China in a bad light, not with the fact that it is about China to begin with. So your claim of “I really don’t care about what you believe, but what I do think is reasonable is that this is not world news.” VERY CLEARLY does not hold water.
Let’s move onto the next issue that I have with your thought process. You just spent quite some time defending the Tiananmen Square massacre and didn’t even respond in any way to the actual news article that I posted which is about restricting access to the physical location and detaining 32 people. This isn’t just a post saying “it’s the anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre” which you seem to be defending.
You also state “It’s always what about, what about with you liberals. What about China, what about North Korea, what about Cuba, but why don’t you try and look a little bit under your own rug?”
I never said “what about” a single time. In fact, this post is not a response to anyone telling me anything so it wouldn’t make any sense for me to say “what about, what about”. Furthermore, I never claimed in this post or anywhere else for that matter that America is perfect. I even take issue with many of the things going on in America too. However, that is in NO WAY relevant to the news that I posted or the Tiananmen Square massacre.
So lets review, your claim that this post doesn’t belong in this community is absolutely ridiculous. You refuse to address the actual article that I posted about and instead just tried to justify the Tiananmen Square massacre instead. And finally, your last point was “well what about under YOUR rug” while claiming that I was the one saying “what about, what about”.
I’m not saying there can’t be news about China, what I’m saying, and I’ve seen this a multitude of times, is that there is something that Usonians and Europeans do a lot, is that they post news about their countries as if they would be the world. In my book “World News” means something the entire world should care about, not just the Anglosphere and Europe, the description seems just a silly thing to put as a placeholder, at least that’s how it has always worked in this community, news that the entire world cares about. It is a good rule that something global would involve at least 2 countries, or some event that it is really worth mentioning, like a natural disaster in some country, etc.
The post you mentioned, as you see, involves two countries, Argentina and China in joint cooperation as how they are going to go around doing trade and commerce. I’m sure that if you look a bit you’ll see a post I did a long ago where I talked about this issue and proposed some rule so that actual World News would be posted, since the same thing always happens where Usonians post stuff like “Some US state does something”, and that’s most definitely not world news. I don’t have any issue with you posting news that contain a pro-Western imperialist point of view, I will not report those, I may debate with you on the comments but that’s it. But this is by no means a world news scenario, as I mentioned, if the world would start shit posting every day would be memorial day to remember atrocities committed by your own government on your own people, and there is plenty, every day there would be posts on world news about that. Maybe it’s better to keep that sort of thing in communities dedicated to their own countries.
You don’t need to say the literal words to mean something. By adhering to the Western narrative and highlighting a very specific and not so big of a history event (compared to for example the bombing of Laos, the most bombed country on Earth by the US government), you are actively contributing to the image of the US and its lapdogs as good guys, and the Global South as some kind of sub-humans who commit atrocities, while the reality is that countries that struggle due to first world imperialism will always end up in bad situations.
Enjoy my “shitposting” then. I won’t be engaging with someone that refuses to actually address the points that I raise. Again, this is not a post stating “yesterday was the anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre” so your claim this time that “if the world would start shit posting every day would be memorial day to remember atrocities committed by your own government on your own people, and there is plenty.” makes no sense.
“You don’t need to say the literal words to mean something.” - By criticizing the CCP I am not in any way implying that America is good. It’s true that you CAN imply things without actually saying them, but it is disingenuous at best to assume that me criticizing the CCP is the same as me “actively contributing to the image of the US and its lapdogs as good guys”. I am very much able to hold the belief that the CCP is in the wrong and that USA isn’t perfect at the same time.
Goodbye.
