I agree with you. I think everything you said here is correct, and i can’t argue against the points you are making. Indeed communists should not tail behind the masses, and you are also right to differentiate between the different requirements that we have of someone who is just “in the movement”, i.e. a supporter, a sympathizer or an ally, vs. the more strict requirements that we must impose on cadres. In this sense i think the CPC absolutely has the right approach…for China’s specific conditions where theistic religions are not so deeply rooted in the society and instead more atheistic philosophies like Taoism and Buddhism dominate (though these too are not rooted in materialism). In other countries the history and culture is different and thus, like i have said already, the communist party’s policies will have to be different too.
All i’m saying is that we needn’t always be so…pushy…for lack of a better word about this subject in spaces where we have a diverse international community. The reason why a lot of people get so touchy about when atheism is being pushed very aggressively and all religion gets painted with a broad brush is two fold in my opinion: on the one hand many of us have comrades who we care about and respect who do hold religious views, and it’s natural to get defensive even if we ourselves are atheists because there are a lot of reactionaries out there who use criticism of religion (usually of Islam specifically) as a cover for bigotry, racism, etc. On the other hand i think many communists are nervous about this subject because of the seeming impossibility of succeeding in building a popular movement while taking an uncompromising anti-religious stance.
There has been a lot of portrayal of the USSR in anti-communist propaganda as having persecuted religious people, and while that is not true historically, it still means we have to be careful not to give rhetorical ammunition to anti-communists that they can use to turn the masses against communism. The association of communism with atheism is one of the big reasons why it had such a hard time gaining a foothold in the Muslim world. That being said i do think it would be great if we also had an atheist community here where we can discuss such works as the ones you mentioned that elaborate on why a dialectical materialism world outlook logically leads to rejection of religion.
And i’m sorry for the, as you call it, “wall of text” type replies, but i think this is an important topic that deserves a thorough discussion. Thank you for taking the time to write such a well reasoned reply.
On the other hand i think many communists are nervous about this subject because of the seeming impossibility of succeeding in building a popular movement while taking an uncompromising anti-religious stance.
Weirdly enough, it succeeded many times in the past.
it still means we have to be careful not to give rhetorical ammunition to anti-communists that they can use to turn the masses against communism
Yeah, but then again, this is way from being only and worst nonsense reactionaries say and what reactionaries say should not and do not stop communist from saying other things, like we don’t stop mentioning collectivisation of means of production despite it being even more controversial etc. etc.
Important part get lost in the dust, class characteristics of religion as tool of opression.
The association of communism with atheism is one of the big reasons why it had such
Well that associacion is pretty easy to make because it is true, no matter how much we endorse religion, the fact still remains that the philosophy is still out there for everyone, it’s not illuminati conspiration theory. Btw communists telling lies about communism is yet another thing commonly used again communists, and sadly, it’s true somtimes especially nowadays when we have entire mass media against us. Still there should be difference between conspiration on a personal level for personal safety, tactics for agitation targeting certain groups and having unmentionables in internal discussion.
a hard time gaining a foothold in the Muslim world.
I wonder, how much did that really played a role, probably did, but then again if you look at history marxist in muslim countries also did not had problems with being materialists but then they were murdered by the west and western-backed fundamentalists (similar with South America, though there religion play lesser role). So it’s rather obvious that the next wave of resistence against empire will recruit from often the very same people (Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq etc.). Note despite the loud “based” cries those people, along with the ones on south America, are not marxists and even the label of “socialism” is more or less optimistical in most cases there.
Anyway this again strikes me as odd stance “muslims are not ready for ML because religion”. Also, this will come and bite us in the ass when the biggest contradiction of US imperialism gets resolved and the lesser ones will get more urgent. It will happen though, so i’m not actually this worried.
And i’m sorry for the, as you call it, “wall of text” type replies, but i think this is an important topic that deserves a thorough discussion.
It definitely is, especially there is a visible problem here
Because there is elephant in the room, what about alienating atheist comrades? It’s not 1500’s, there are millions upon millions of atheists, and contrary to the reddit stereotypes overwhelming most of them do not wear fedoras (again back to Marx, Engels, Lenin and others, all of them were hardline atheists but still wrote against vulgar liberal atheism) but are left leaning and could be influenced way easier if not getting banned and dogpiled when coming to reddit or lemmygrad. As you noted every discussion turns problematic rather fast, and in previous ones bans and dogpiles were rather one-sided. At least one person who clearly could used help got harshly rebuked and i never seen them since here. I’m basically the only one left that have strenght to speak and i do feel alienated in such cases.
Thank you for taking the time to write such a well reasoned reply.
Just wanted to say that both yours and @cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml replies in this thread was/is pretty much a reflection of the ongoing arguments I have had with myself about religion throughout the years.
It feels refreshing seeing it typed out and I am glad you both took it with the seriousness it deserved.
And of Islam, I also am very weary and hesitant mentioning it in western spaces. It faces a predicament where it either gets fetishized and patronized, or caricatured into Eurocentric “just as bad as Christianity” thought-terminating idioms. (In left-wing discourse of course, we all know of the right-wing propaganda.)
Denying the nuance it deserves for a “civilization“ spanning across Afro-Eurasia. Especially when we consider the role of European colonization in manipulating, and exterminating indigenous religions and cultural practices, which includes Islam.
Not saying that this happens here though, but just something I have observed generally in online Marxist spaces.
Everytime this religion vs Marxism debate flares up I am reminded of when a local comrade was deriding what they saw as online Western (muslim) Marxists fetishizing Islam, when it has always been an organized reactionary force in our own country, except maybe before colonization and some small currents during and after colonization. So for any Marxist here, saying Islam and Communism is compatible is like saying Capitalism does not contain contradictions.
Regardless, I do agree that we should be unapologetic about what Marxism says about religion. We should be clear about our stance, appreciate nuance where it matters and remember that on the other side of the screen is another person. Calling religion a “dumb opinion” like in the original comment in this thread is unproductive, when we consider that for many, religion-culture-identity-philosophy is the same thing, and merely calling it an “opinion” is insulting.
Thing is, we can’t tiptoe around some things, even trying hard as we can, sometimes it does erupt with force and the more we pretend there is no contradiction, the more it will erupt. We are not in the liberal marketplace of ideas where everything is equal, marxists do subscribe to a certain philosphy and ideology.
I agree with you. I think everything you said here is correct, and i can’t argue against the points you are making. Indeed communists should not tail behind the masses, and you are also right to differentiate between the different requirements that we have of someone who is just “in the movement”, i.e. a supporter, a sympathizer or an ally, vs. the more strict requirements that we must impose on cadres. In this sense i think the CPC absolutely has the right approach…for China’s specific conditions where theistic religions are not so deeply rooted in the society and instead more atheistic philosophies like Taoism and Buddhism dominate (though these too are not rooted in materialism). In other countries the history and culture is different and thus, like i have said already, the communist party’s policies will have to be different too.
All i’m saying is that we needn’t always be so…pushy…for lack of a better word about this subject in spaces where we have a diverse international community. The reason why a lot of people get so touchy about when atheism is being pushed very aggressively and all religion gets painted with a broad brush is two fold in my opinion: on the one hand many of us have comrades who we care about and respect who do hold religious views, and it’s natural to get defensive even if we ourselves are atheists because there are a lot of reactionaries out there who use criticism of religion (usually of Islam specifically) as a cover for bigotry, racism, etc. On the other hand i think many communists are nervous about this subject because of the seeming impossibility of succeeding in building a popular movement while taking an uncompromising anti-religious stance.
There has been a lot of portrayal of the USSR in anti-communist propaganda as having persecuted religious people, and while that is not true historically, it still means we have to be careful not to give rhetorical ammunition to anti-communists that they can use to turn the masses against communism. The association of communism with atheism is one of the big reasons why it had such a hard time gaining a foothold in the Muslim world. That being said i do think it would be great if we also had an atheist community here where we can discuss such works as the ones you mentioned that elaborate on why a dialectical materialism world outlook logically leads to rejection of religion.
And i’m sorry for the, as you call it, “wall of text” type replies, but i think this is an important topic that deserves a thorough discussion. Thank you for taking the time to write such a well reasoned reply.
Weirdly enough, it succeeded many times in the past.
Yeah, but then again, this is way from being only and worst nonsense reactionaries say and what reactionaries say should not and do not stop communist from saying other things, like we don’t stop mentioning collectivisation of means of production despite it being even more controversial etc. etc.
Important part get lost in the dust, class characteristics of religion as tool of opression.
Well that associacion is pretty easy to make because it is true, no matter how much we endorse religion, the fact still remains that the philosophy is still out there for everyone, it’s not illuminati conspiration theory. Btw communists telling lies about communism is yet another thing commonly used again communists, and sadly, it’s true somtimes especially nowadays when we have entire mass media against us. Still there should be difference between conspiration on a personal level for personal safety, tactics for agitation targeting certain groups and having unmentionables in internal discussion.
I wonder, how much did that really played a role, probably did, but then again if you look at history marxist in muslim countries also did not had problems with being materialists but then they were murdered by the west and western-backed fundamentalists (similar with South America, though there religion play lesser role). So it’s rather obvious that the next wave of resistence against empire will recruit from often the very same people (Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq etc.). Note despite the loud “based” cries those people, along with the ones on south America, are not marxists and even the label of “socialism” is more or less optimistical in most cases there.
Anyway this again strikes me as odd stance “muslims are not ready for ML because religion”. Also, this will come and bite us in the ass when the biggest contradiction of US imperialism gets resolved and the lesser ones will get more urgent. It will happen though, so i’m not actually this worried.
It definitely is, especially there is a visible problem here
Because there is elephant in the room, what about alienating atheist comrades? It’s not 1500’s, there are millions upon millions of atheists, and contrary to the reddit stereotypes overwhelming most of them do not wear fedoras (again back to Marx, Engels, Lenin and others, all of them were hardline atheists but still wrote against vulgar liberal atheism) but are left leaning and could be influenced way easier if not getting banned and dogpiled when coming to reddit or lemmygrad. As you noted every discussion turns problematic rather fast, and in previous ones bans and dogpiles were rather one-sided. At least one person who clearly could used help got harshly rebuked and i never seen them since here. I’m basically the only one left that have strenght to speak and i do feel alienated in such cases.
Likewise
Just wanted to say that both yours and @cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml replies in this thread was/is pretty much a reflection of the ongoing arguments I have had with myself about religion throughout the years.
It feels refreshing seeing it typed out and I am glad you both took it with the seriousness it deserved.
And of Islam, I also am very weary and hesitant mentioning it in western spaces. It faces a predicament where it either gets fetishized and patronized, or caricatured into Eurocentric “just as bad as Christianity” thought-terminating idioms. (In left-wing discourse of course, we all know of the right-wing propaganda.)
Denying the nuance it deserves for a “civilization“ spanning across Afro-Eurasia. Especially when we consider the role of European colonization in manipulating, and exterminating indigenous religions and cultural practices, which includes Islam.
Not saying that this happens here though, but just something I have observed generally in online Marxist spaces.
Everytime this religion vs Marxism debate flares up I am reminded of when a local comrade was deriding what they saw as online Western (muslim) Marxists fetishizing Islam, when it has always been an organized reactionary force in our own country, except maybe before colonization and some small currents during and after colonization. So for any Marxist here, saying Islam and Communism is compatible is like saying Capitalism does not contain contradictions.
Regardless, I do agree that we should be unapologetic about what Marxism says about religion. We should be clear about our stance, appreciate nuance where it matters and remember that on the other side of the screen is another person. Calling religion a “dumb opinion” like in the original comment in this thread is unproductive, when we consider that for many, religion-culture-identity-philosophy is the same thing, and merely calling it an “opinion” is insulting.
Agree about pretty much everything.
Thing is, we can’t tiptoe around some things, even trying hard as we can, sometimes it does erupt with force and the more we pretend there is no contradiction, the more it will erupt. We are not in the liberal marketplace of ideas where everything is equal, marxists do subscribe to a certain philosphy and ideology.