It’s a manufactured conflict. It’s not that it’s not happening, but when you look at the whys it IS a nothing burger, just a smokescreen to get us fighting each other or some bullshit about culture which is determined by economics not street fighting, instead of fixing the real cause of the issues both artificial and organic.
Are you REALLY saying that massacres at queer bars as just… A street fight?
Homework assignment, comrade. Show me ANY moment in history where minorities of any stripe massacred a white conservative church.
I will fucking wait.
Please show us the injury inflicted on conservative white christians by the hands of dastardly blacks and faggots. Please. Show us the equivalent harm. Im fucking begging you.
Wow what a rabid radlib lol. You understand the first layer of an onion isn’t the entire onion yes? That if you peel back the layers, you’ll find the most oniony part is actually the core and not what’s first seen? Your argument seems to be ignoring the substance of my argument and trying to overcompensate by hyping up the emotional impact of the distraction that’s been organized. The culture war nonsense is no different than the Johnny Depp story, only the story has changed but they’re both created to do the same thing - get everyone to focus on something other than the real issue, and the people responsible for it all.
Couldnt find and equivalent injury, could you. 🤔 It’s almost as if there is some kind of strange material connection between the structures of capital and white identity motivations. 🤷♂️
Maybe I dunno; dont equate white supremacist violence as just an illusory street fight? Maybe not call marginalized being asked to not be killed or targeted by the state as active participants in a silly culture war “street fight”.
If you wanna go down this road; then explain to us why the targets of white violence needs to treat white feelings with kid gloves? Are white workers incapable of not falling for the Fox News and Stormfront grift?
Since we are here. What do colonized workers owe white workers? How are colonized and marginalized workers failing the white worker?
Look at you go assembling and then tearing apart strawman after strawman. If only you applied that energy towards studying and building alternatives instead of attacking the left online. This I expect from Reddit, I expect more from Lemmygrad. Toting IDPOL and mentioning workers while slinging accusation after accusation and never stop being offended or tone policing. Now I have some questions for you: Explain what capital is, how it accumulates, which structures reinforce it, what the base and superstructure are, and the role of a vanguard. Are you actually a leftist or are you simply another radlib who follow us like fanboys/girls, let’s see.
Capital - The means of which bourgoisie levels command over economies usually represented by “the amount of money” they possess but also includes rent seeking, owning of assets, owning of the means of production, resources, and distribution lines, and financing; typically.
Capital accumulates classically by owning the means of production and paying labor less than the value of said labor. That surplus is profit. It is also modernly accumulated through rent, debt collection, super profits from the global south, unequal exchange between an imperialist core and a colonized area, expansion of markets outward, and monopolizing sectors of the economy into private hands.
The structures that reinforce it are states that represent the interests of capital and level the monopoly of violence, legal deeds, and courts, and military expeditions to protect the rights of private property and the opening up and monopolizing of markets and resources.
The base is our material conditions. These can be work conditions, living conditions, the means at which we transport people and resources. The base informs the superstructure. And through superstructure, the base can be altered.
Superstructure is usually cultural things, religion, arts, and labor relations and how we explain the material contradictions of capital and how we negotiate those contradictions.
And example is we live in a base material condition of abundance and yet we have a superstructural discussion of why we “live in a state of scarcity” and of course those of us who are arguing against that in hopes to change the relationship to the means of production. The base informs our superstructure, but it isnt absolute because it also informs the negation of bourgoisie thought and class consciousness.
A vanguard is a party of professional revolutionaries whose job it is to help guide one class to realize their material interests over another class; in this sense a vanguard class that helps working masses realize their material interests and seizing that moment at the expense of the idle, passive, and parasitic capitalist class.
You havent answered my questions. But I answered yours.
But that doesnt change the fact that you came off like a tactless, insensitive prick and calling the violence of culture war as a nothing burger street fight. As if those who are having the violence done to them are somehow equally responsible for what you called… “A street fight”.
Calling reactionary terrorism and right wing agitprop a culture war is a misnomer. It’s terrorism pure and simple. It’s stochastic terrorism pure and simple.
The existence of Black Wall Street wasnt terrorism or even an equal participant in a “street fight”. The existence of Stonewall wasnt a terrorism and those people werent rolling out brutalizing breeders on the weekend cause “damn the straights”.
But the actions of those angry white workers and petite bourgoisie crackers that firebombed Black Wall Street was terrorism. The cops that raided Stonewall and… Picked a fight with those patrons was a terrorism and a self defense against that terror.
B+ on the base and superstructure part but I’m impressed. I’m sorry for raging you but it will at least our interaction will serve the cause of self improvement for us both. You seem to be confused by my use of the term street fight. I would consider anti-fascists brawling with the proud boys a street fight, yes. What would you call it? A tea party? This is what I meant, an actual street fight. I am being a tactless and rather blunt dick but I’m allowed, especially when someone comes at me acting like a rabid radlib despite not actually being one. I don’t have any interest in carrying an ounce of water for the democratic party’s culture propaganda, and whether you realize it or not you are doing so. The fact that violence is happening and needs to be defended against isn’t the problem, making the problems of the day end there is which is when it becomes a meaningless culture war against the fascists, something the 3 arrows crowd would be satisfied with, is. We all know who put them up to this, and why they listen to them, thus we know what is for us to do and what isn’t for us to do. Your arguments were filled with personal attacks, the enemy only raised to the fascists when that is never the end to the situation, and your splicing of popular liberal argumentative style of infusing outrage, expectations for your opponent, and over the top emotions are red flags to any leftist who has debated them which not only sets off a bad tone but most importantly doesn’t convince anyone of anything. The argument is authoritative and coercive instead of helpful and insightful. Do you see how you got stuck in a loop of specific histories of workers and the actions of the fascists from misunderstanding my argument, and can you imagine how it looked to me? Read back and see if you can understand what I’ve said. Even though it’s coming from a tactless dick, you should consider expanding your approach to debating such as reducing how much you rely upon emotions to drive you (you’ll end up missing things and it can lead you off on a tangent), and try to make your argument more based in your studies than identity. The liberals do that enough for us all.
You know what? You know what’s pretty interesting about the culture war thing?
This is anecdotal of me; but I have NEVER seen online commies tell right wingers to stop falling for the culture war nonsense and stop carrying water for the GOP and their overt white supremacist agenda.
Granted. I work for a living and when a coworker steps outta line and pops off with ridiculous right wing claims; I usually challenge it.
But I dont ever see online communists tell conservative workers to drop the culture war bullshit and focus on the contradictions of capital. As if… There’s something okay with having white supremacist and cultural reactionary tendencies.
It’s always the ones that have the violence happening to them and the allies of those people who have to “surrender the culture war” and be above it. To struggle to liberate the white worker AND tactically defend themselves from the terroristic outbursts from those ranks.
Where is the responsibility of the conservative to not be a republican tool and to drop their made up grievances and stop terrorizing non-cishet non white workers because fox news told them that the gays wanna diddle their kids?
You know… It’s a sussy lack of energy my guy. Im not accusing you of this. But it’s a pattern.
You’re continuing to think in the 2 party dynamic, as if there needs to be a disclosure every time of ‘fuck the other party also’. Western leftists don’t reject progressive social values, but we don’t lead with them either, that’s what the neoliberals in the democratic party do. If you’ve read as much as you ascertain then you know why we don’t bother trying to teach and improve MAGA (because it’s pointless, this is why we just attack them). You’re also entirely too concerned about identity politics and social issues, entirely missing the big picture of economics. If you’ve read what you have and you still are acting this way I have to ask what you do for a living for work?
I think there was some miscommunication in the convo that led to it spiraling, but I was referring to calling them a “rabid radlib”. The strange thing is that I agree with you both on many points raised, and I think you agree with each other more than the conversation lends itself to showing.
The economic factor behind fascistic terrorism is obviously paramount. The perpetrators of these types of attacks are more often than not isolated, alienated white guys who feel completely abandoned by society and indulge in misanthropic violence to cope and escape. They see their financially secure futures dwindling. If they’re the recipients of scraps from their imperial benefactors, as settlers are, they can likely see the writing on the wall with further neoliberal privatization of plundered resources occurring - the profit extracted from the third world is not being distributed as it once was amongst the settler class and is funneling into fewer and fewer hands. They want those spoils back.
Tucker Carlson and other right-wing culture-war ideologues know this and capitalize on it, pushing more and more of them to violence. I think it’s one thing to understand the economic component leading to a rise in fascistic violence, but a mistake to abstract the culture-war into a violenceless nothing-burger meant to distract us from its economic foundations. We should be calling attention to the primary contradictions of capitalism rather than allowing fascist demagogues to bring us down to their level of focusing on non-issues like the sexy M&M or whatever, but we shouldn’t be forgoing the promotion of revolutionary self-defense amongst the groups they’re targeting either, just to stand atop our ivory towers telling the oppressed “we told you so!” We are the masses and the masses are us, after all.
I don’t mean to imply that you don’t know this. I don’t mean to imply that I’m not regurgitating points already made. I think that we all agree on many of these points, though, and probably should offer each other interaction in good faith rather than dismissing concerns as childish radlibbery. I know comrade DoubleK is very passionate about this in part because many of their loved ones are being targeted by these fucks, as are mine. I do not mean to speak for them but I respect their passion for wanting to defend those targeted and don’t think that they mean ill intent towards others who have, in the end, the same goals they do.
Hmm…I seem to be not getting my point across, I’ll have to study that conversation. What I meant isn’t to ignore the violence, I did say it needed to be responded to. What I meant is look past the wall of flames to see the arsonist on the other side of them. The flames are still a problem. I just don’t want us to see fascists as the sexy M&Ms where all we do is talk about them and nothing more. With the rampant fear mongery from the democratic party this too is becoming a trend on the left…that means their nonsense is working to some degree, which is troubling.
I have sympathies for the most oppressed and most effected, and I don’t mean to diminish any of what they know or are going through. I would have made a more respectful approach however from my perspective I was misunderstood greatly from my actual point from the beginning. Not only this, their response was akin to a radical liberal to such a degree it ‘checked all boxes’ for me if you will and I was confident they were indeed a radical liberal and so I treated them as such in these times. They also seemed to ignore my logical counterpoints which were amongst my sarcasm as we continued and instead focused on the sarcasm and responded with the same so that didn’t help. If logic was stuck to we could have arrived here sooner, but I agree I believe I had a large hand in forfeiting that by being a tactless and blunt dick. I think next time I’ll check out their post history before deciding how to respond. This was yet another reminder I shouldn’t be so caviler, I suppose I did because I am new to Lemmy and wanted to feel out the waters. I was very pleased when they responded answering my questions competently though. I don’t want to sugar coat my analysis this so that we can all improve - I feel that if I hadn’t been as observation and patient this would have spiraled further, and if I had to guess why this is the case I would guess that DoubleK is deep in conflict and is new to this level of conflict or rather new to it’s process, which is why they lead with emotion and why said emotion was so strong. I say this because as someone who is familiar with the process myself one learns the hard way that emotions are to guide not to lead. I also think that the exact context of what I said as I said it disrespectfully ticked all of their boxes too, which happens as there are so many things hitting the fan right now, and is also part of why I apologized. Regardless of their impression of me I do hope they too learned and can improve from our interaction. I already have and I’m sure I will further.
It’s a manufactured conflict. It’s not that it’s not happening, but when you look at the whys it IS a nothing burger, just a smokescreen to get us fighting each other or some bullshit about culture which is determined by economics not street fighting, instead of fixing the real cause of the issues both artificial and organic.
Honest question.
Are you REALLY saying that massacres at queer bars as just… A street fight?
Homework assignment, comrade. Show me ANY moment in history where minorities of any stripe massacred a white conservative church.
I will fucking wait.
Please show us the injury inflicted on conservative white christians by the hands of dastardly blacks and faggots. Please. Show us the equivalent harm. Im fucking begging you.
Wow what a rabid radlib lol. You understand the first layer of an onion isn’t the entire onion yes? That if you peel back the layers, you’ll find the most oniony part is actually the core and not what’s first seen? Your argument seems to be ignoring the substance of my argument and trying to overcompensate by hyping up the emotional impact of the distraction that’s been organized. The culture war nonsense is no different than the Johnny Depp story, only the story has changed but they’re both created to do the same thing - get everyone to focus on something other than the real issue, and the people responsible for it all.
Couldnt find and equivalent injury, could you. 🤔 It’s almost as if there is some kind of strange material connection between the structures of capital and white identity motivations. 🤷♂️
Maybe I dunno; dont equate white supremacist violence as just an illusory street fight? Maybe not call marginalized being asked to not be killed or targeted by the state as active participants in a silly culture war “street fight”.
If you wanna go down this road; then explain to us why the targets of white violence needs to treat white feelings with kid gloves? Are white workers incapable of not falling for the Fox News and Stormfront grift?
Since we are here. What do colonized workers owe white workers? How are colonized and marginalized workers failing the white worker?
Look at you go assembling and then tearing apart strawman after strawman. If only you applied that energy towards studying and building alternatives instead of attacking the left online. This I expect from Reddit, I expect more from Lemmygrad. Toting IDPOL and mentioning workers while slinging accusation after accusation and never stop being offended or tone policing. Now I have some questions for you: Explain what capital is, how it accumulates, which structures reinforce it, what the base and superstructure are, and the role of a vanguard. Are you actually a leftist or are you simply another radlib who follow us like fanboys/girls, let’s see.
Capital - The means of which bourgoisie levels command over economies usually represented by “the amount of money” they possess but also includes rent seeking, owning of assets, owning of the means of production, resources, and distribution lines, and financing; typically.
Capital accumulates classically by owning the means of production and paying labor less than the value of said labor. That surplus is profit. It is also modernly accumulated through rent, debt collection, super profits from the global south, unequal exchange between an imperialist core and a colonized area, expansion of markets outward, and monopolizing sectors of the economy into private hands.
The structures that reinforce it are states that represent the interests of capital and level the monopoly of violence, legal deeds, and courts, and military expeditions to protect the rights of private property and the opening up and monopolizing of markets and resources.
The base is our material conditions. These can be work conditions, living conditions, the means at which we transport people and resources. The base informs the superstructure. And through superstructure, the base can be altered.
Superstructure is usually cultural things, religion, arts, and labor relations and how we explain the material contradictions of capital and how we negotiate those contradictions.
And example is we live in a base material condition of abundance and yet we have a superstructural discussion of why we “live in a state of scarcity” and of course those of us who are arguing against that in hopes to change the relationship to the means of production. The base informs our superstructure, but it isnt absolute because it also informs the negation of bourgoisie thought and class consciousness.
A vanguard is a party of professional revolutionaries whose job it is to help guide one class to realize their material interests over another class; in this sense a vanguard class that helps working masses realize their material interests and seizing that moment at the expense of the idle, passive, and parasitic capitalist class.
You havent answered my questions. But I answered yours.
But that doesnt change the fact that you came off like a tactless, insensitive prick and calling the violence of culture war as a nothing burger street fight. As if those who are having the violence done to them are somehow equally responsible for what you called… “A street fight”.
Calling reactionary terrorism and right wing agitprop a culture war is a misnomer. It’s terrorism pure and simple. It’s stochastic terrorism pure and simple.
The existence of Black Wall Street wasnt terrorism or even an equal participant in a “street fight”. The existence of Stonewall wasnt a terrorism and those people werent rolling out brutalizing breeders on the weekend cause “damn the straights”.
But the actions of those angry white workers and petite bourgoisie crackers that firebombed Black Wall Street was terrorism. The cops that raided Stonewall and… Picked a fight with those patrons was a terrorism and a self defense against that terror.
Whatever though.
B+ on the base and superstructure part but I’m impressed. I’m sorry for raging you but it will at least our interaction will serve the cause of self improvement for us both. You seem to be confused by my use of the term street fight. I would consider anti-fascists brawling with the proud boys a street fight, yes. What would you call it? A tea party? This is what I meant, an actual street fight. I am being a tactless and rather blunt dick but I’m allowed, especially when someone comes at me acting like a rabid radlib despite not actually being one. I don’t have any interest in carrying an ounce of water for the democratic party’s culture propaganda, and whether you realize it or not you are doing so. The fact that violence is happening and needs to be defended against isn’t the problem, making the problems of the day end there is which is when it becomes a meaningless culture war against the fascists, something the 3 arrows crowd would be satisfied with, is. We all know who put them up to this, and why they listen to them, thus we know what is for us to do and what isn’t for us to do. Your arguments were filled with personal attacks, the enemy only raised to the fascists when that is never the end to the situation, and your splicing of popular liberal argumentative style of infusing outrage, expectations for your opponent, and over the top emotions are red flags to any leftist who has debated them which not only sets off a bad tone but most importantly doesn’t convince anyone of anything. The argument is authoritative and coercive instead of helpful and insightful. Do you see how you got stuck in a loop of specific histories of workers and the actions of the fascists from misunderstanding my argument, and can you imagine how it looked to me? Read back and see if you can understand what I’ve said. Even though it’s coming from a tactless dick, you should consider expanding your approach to debating such as reducing how much you rely upon emotions to drive you (you’ll end up missing things and it can lead you off on a tangent), and try to make your argument more based in your studies than identity. The liberals do that enough for us all.
You know what? You know what’s pretty interesting about the culture war thing?
This is anecdotal of me; but I have NEVER seen online commies tell right wingers to stop falling for the culture war nonsense and stop carrying water for the GOP and their overt white supremacist agenda.
Granted. I work for a living and when a coworker steps outta line and pops off with ridiculous right wing claims; I usually challenge it.
But I dont ever see online communists tell conservative workers to drop the culture war bullshit and focus on the contradictions of capital. As if… There’s something okay with having white supremacist and cultural reactionary tendencies.
It’s always the ones that have the violence happening to them and the allies of those people who have to “surrender the culture war” and be above it. To struggle to liberate the white worker AND tactically defend themselves from the terroristic outbursts from those ranks.
Where is the responsibility of the conservative to not be a republican tool and to drop their made up grievances and stop terrorizing non-cishet non white workers because fox news told them that the gays wanna diddle their kids?
You know… It’s a sussy lack of energy my guy. Im not accusing you of this. But it’s a pattern.
You’re continuing to think in the 2 party dynamic, as if there needs to be a disclosure every time of ‘fuck the other party also’. Western leftists don’t reject progressive social values, but we don’t lead with them either, that’s what the neoliberals in the democratic party do. If you’ve read as much as you ascertain then you know why we don’t bother trying to teach and improve MAGA (because it’s pointless, this is why we just attack them). You’re also entirely too concerned about identity politics and social issues, entirely missing the big picture of economics. If you’ve read what you have and you still are acting this way I have to ask what you do for a living for work?
I mean this in good faith, you’re the one who began levying personal insults against DoubleK because they care about fascistic violence happening.
Example?
I think there was some miscommunication in the convo that led to it spiraling, but I was referring to calling them a “rabid radlib”. The strange thing is that I agree with you both on many points raised, and I think you agree with each other more than the conversation lends itself to showing.
The economic factor behind fascistic terrorism is obviously paramount. The perpetrators of these types of attacks are more often than not isolated, alienated white guys who feel completely abandoned by society and indulge in misanthropic violence to cope and escape. They see their financially secure futures dwindling. If they’re the recipients of scraps from their imperial benefactors, as settlers are, they can likely see the writing on the wall with further neoliberal privatization of plundered resources occurring - the profit extracted from the third world is not being distributed as it once was amongst the settler class and is funneling into fewer and fewer hands. They want those spoils back.
Tucker Carlson and other right-wing culture-war ideologues know this and capitalize on it, pushing more and more of them to violence. I think it’s one thing to understand the economic component leading to a rise in fascistic violence, but a mistake to abstract the culture-war into a violenceless nothing-burger meant to distract us from its economic foundations. We should be calling attention to the primary contradictions of capitalism rather than allowing fascist demagogues to bring us down to their level of focusing on non-issues like the sexy M&M or whatever, but we shouldn’t be forgoing the promotion of revolutionary self-defense amongst the groups they’re targeting either, just to stand atop our ivory towers telling the oppressed “we told you so!” We are the masses and the masses are us, after all.
I don’t mean to imply that you don’t know this. I don’t mean to imply that I’m not regurgitating points already made. I think that we all agree on many of these points, though, and probably should offer each other interaction in good faith rather than dismissing concerns as childish radlibbery. I know comrade DoubleK is very passionate about this in part because many of their loved ones are being targeted by these fucks, as are mine. I do not mean to speak for them but I respect their passion for wanting to defend those targeted and don’t think that they mean ill intent towards others who have, in the end, the same goals they do.
Hmm…I seem to be not getting my point across, I’ll have to study that conversation. What I meant isn’t to ignore the violence, I did say it needed to be responded to. What I meant is look past the wall of flames to see the arsonist on the other side of them. The flames are still a problem. I just don’t want us to see fascists as the sexy M&Ms where all we do is talk about them and nothing more. With the rampant fear mongery from the democratic party this too is becoming a trend on the left…that means their nonsense is working to some degree, which is troubling.
I have sympathies for the most oppressed and most effected, and I don’t mean to diminish any of what they know or are going through. I would have made a more respectful approach however from my perspective I was misunderstood greatly from my actual point from the beginning. Not only this, their response was akin to a radical liberal to such a degree it ‘checked all boxes’ for me if you will and I was confident they were indeed a radical liberal and so I treated them as such in these times. They also seemed to ignore my logical counterpoints which were amongst my sarcasm as we continued and instead focused on the sarcasm and responded with the same so that didn’t help. If logic was stuck to we could have arrived here sooner, but I agree I believe I had a large hand in forfeiting that by being a tactless and blunt dick. I think next time I’ll check out their post history before deciding how to respond. This was yet another reminder I shouldn’t be so caviler, I suppose I did because I am new to Lemmy and wanted to feel out the waters. I was very pleased when they responded answering my questions competently though. I don’t want to sugar coat my analysis this so that we can all improve - I feel that if I hadn’t been as observation and patient this would have spiraled further, and if I had to guess why this is the case I would guess that DoubleK is deep in conflict and is new to this level of conflict or rather new to it’s process, which is why they lead with emotion and why said emotion was so strong. I say this because as someone who is familiar with the process myself one learns the hard way that emotions are to guide not to lead. I also think that the exact context of what I said as I said it disrespectfully ticked all of their boxes too, which happens as there are so many things hitting the fan right now, and is also part of why I apologized. Regardless of their impression of me I do hope they too learned and can improve from our interaction. I already have and I’m sure I will further.