The false notion that undocumented immigrants affect federal elections has a long history. But this year, due in part to rising migration at the U.S. southern border, the idea could have new potency.
The way I see it is that most actual citizens can’t even be bothered to vote. Why would a non-citizen spend the time, effort, and (in their case) risk to do it?
I’m sure it’s happened before, but only at a miniscule scale.
and (in their case) risk to do it?
What risk is that? They’ve already committed a crime being the country. Many places want to allow you to vote without identification. What risk is there to try to vote for the candidate that you believe would benefit you most as someone who isn’t allowed to vote otherwise? It’s not like they’re going to get deported…
Is this really a line of reasoning people use? They’ve committed one crime so of course they’ll commit all the crimes?
Lmfao… I ask what risk there is for the illegal alien (the official name of their status)… and you all go ape-shit on something as stupid as me stating their initial entry into the country was done illegally completely ignoring the actual issue at hand, which is that they have nothing to lose to attempt to vote. Whether they do or don’t, I have no idea. But to claim there’s some risk involved when there definitely isn’t is hilarious.
Because committing crimes risks drawing unwanted attention that would lead to deportation.
You can’t register to vote as a non-citizen, so they would have to use someone else’s identity with all the risks that go along with that.
In several states registering a car automatically registers you to vote… per https://ballotpedia.org/Voter_registration,
As of September 2023, 24 states and the District of Columbia had enacted automatic voter registration policies.
With specific examples of Delaware, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, California, and Oregon.
Per https://ballotpedia.org/Voter_identification_laws_by_state
California No ID required According to the Office of the California Secretary of State, “in most cases, California voters are not required to show identification at their polling place.” A voter may be asked to provide identification at the polls if it is his or her first time voting (this requirement applies if the individual registered by mail without providing a driver’s license number, state identification number, or the last four digits of a Social Security number). Acceptable forms of identification include driver’s licenses, utility bills, or any document sent by a government agency.
None of which proves legal status in the USA.
Minnesota No ID required Identification is not required of already-registered voters in Minnesota. If they have not voted in four years or more, proof of residence is required.
And since it’s automatic…
Oregon No ID required Oregon is an all-mail voting state. When registering to vote, voters must provide their driver’s license number or state ID card number. If voters can not provide this information, they can print and sign a online voter registration form and mail it to their county election office to complete their registration.
Pennsylvania No ID required Pennsylvania does not require voters to present identification while voting in most cases. However, first-time voters must show identification. Accepted forms include both photo and non-photo ID.
Delaware is the only one that actually consistently checks ID out of the ones called out on that page. You claim they’ll get caught and it will be tricky. Except you can obtain valid IDs… What is there to be caught? You can obtain a license or ID without being a citizen https://www.immigrationhelp.org/learning-center/drivers-licenses-for-immigrants. So none of this even matters. The person at the polls checking your ID doesn’t have a clue if you’re a citizen or not.
Under an automatic voter registration system, eligible voters are automatically registered to vote
For fuck’s sake dude, did you even read what you posted? An undocumented immigrant isn’t going to be an eligible voter and won’t be able to register. The rest of your screed is based on a false premise.
For fuck’s sake dude! I did and do read! I hope you do as well. Clearly you haven’t thus-far.
So none of this even matters. The person at the polls checking your ID doesn’t have a clue if you’re a citizen or not.
What risk is that?
You’ve not been able to show any risk at all to any people for voting while ineligible.
If you believe that only eligible voters can register and 100% of ineligible voters are caught then you’re delusional. I worked on a college campus during the voting registration pushes by several organizations. I’ve seen students who are here on student visa’s successfully register to vote. Now you think an automatic process will somehow be better? No part of registering my car proves I’m a citizen. Why would voter registration be attached to this process at all?
Personal anecdotes aren’t super convincing. People can fill out whatever paperwork they want. That doesn’t mean any of it gets approved.
The person at the polls knows if you’re registered or not. To register you need to be a citizen.
I’ve told you what the risk is, you just don’t want to hear it.
I don’t have to show an ID to vote, but I have to tell the person there my name and address. If someone else wants to vote as me it’s going to look pretty funny when the name has already been checked.
I’ve told you what the risk is, you just don’t want to hear it.
Please find me “deportation” on this list of actual cases found where illegal aliens voted. You didn’t tell me any risk and even the “risks” on this page is all “if convicted”. You live in some fantasy world where you think everyone gets caught for everything and that voter registration is always 100% accurate. You can literally search for cases where people have registered perfectly fine but shouldn’t have been allowed to (one such example since I have it ready from another post. https://www.npr.org/2022/12/21/1144265521/florida-voter-fraud-cases-prosecution-update). To live under some fantasy that this doesn’t happen just show how disingenuous you are on the matter. The sheer numbers by which all this stuff happens should tell you that there is no real risk… illegal aliens are voting and most likely never get caught.
As a MN resident I was curious so I looked at MN practices
Step 1: Department of Public Safety (or other agency) Application. During the regular course of certain DPS interactions—applying for, replacing, renewing, or changing the address on a driver’s license or state ID card—clients generally supply the information election officials need to register them to vote, including Name, Address (mailing and residential), Date of Birth, Citizenship Status, and Signature Image. The Secretary of State shall determine if other state, tribal, or local government agencies also collect sufficient information to identify eligible citizens for potential automatic voter registration, and may work with them to allow participation in the program. Step 2: Citizenship Filtering. Only clients who provide a document that demonstrates that they are a citizen (which is generally required by the DPS) will be included in AVR. As part of this step, demonstrated non-citizens or people whose citizenship status is unknown are excluded from the AVR workflow. Other agencies may verify citizenship instead through a database check.
See Step 2? I’m not gonna go state by state, but maybe you should before assuming they all register everyone to vote regardless of eligibility.
And yeah, in MN I don’t show my ID at the polls. I think they should change that. But I also won’t be able to vote if they don’t have my name on the list at my polling place, or if someone has already voted under my name. It’s hard for an ineligible voter to vote, and if they do, there’s a high chance of detection.
Do you think there’s a systematic effort to have ineligible voters vote on behalf of registered voters in places that don’t check ID, with a database of registered-but-definitely-not-voting people, and their associated polling place? If so, have you seen any evidence of it?
Do you think there’s a systematic effort to have ineligible voters vote on behalf of registered voters in places that don’t check ID, with a database of registered-but-definitely-not-voting people, and their associated polling place? If so, have you seen any evidence of it?
This was never the point I was addressing. The original post claimed that there’s some magical risk for an illegal alien to attempt to vote. I’m calling that out specifically. There is no risk. You can walk into any place and attempt to vote. Nobody is going to stop you ESPECIALLY places that do not bother checking IDs.
The point I’m making that you’re responding to here is more along the lines of “governments already suck at their job… some people will probably even be automatically registered to vote even when ineligible”, which just makes the problem worse. My counter comment to yours would be “so you think nobody was ever accidentally automatically registered via this process?”
Is the risk of detection, prosecution, and jail or deportation not enough? I don’t see how you consider that “no risk.”
misdemeanor charges for unlawfully casting ballots in the 2016 presidential election.
If convicted, these individuals face a maximum term of one-year imprisonment, a fine not to exceed $100,000, or both.
Didn’t deter these people. And I don’t see deportation on that list for some reason. Actually it’s not even on the federal charges either. Notice also that this article is written in 2020… for the 2016 election.
Do you truly believe that others aren’t voting and that they aren’t making it through the “checks”. There’s literally millions in the USA at this point with the status of “illegal alien”. It’s just a numbers game at some point. People will vote, and some/many will make it through for one reason or another.
Hell proving the point more about the government registration systems being typical government garbage…
https://www.npr.org/2022/12/21/1144265521/florida-voter-fraud-cases-prosecution-update
“She was approached at a bus stop by people who were trying to register voters,” he told NPR. "She told them that she was a felon and was told, ‘That’s not a problem. You can apply. And if you are eligible and your rights have been restored they will send you a voter registration card.’ "
After filing out her registration form, Oliver’s local election official sent her a voter registration card. So, when the 2020 election came up, she cast a ballot.
So they issued her a card. This person got screwed because they tried to do things right and the system just did what it does… fuck up. How do you track any illegal aliens who may be issued voter registrations? They’re kind of living off the books at some point anyway right? It’s not like you can just show up and find them at where they report to live/work (remember they’re not supposed to work)…
These same approvals that just “work” out of nowhere also track with student visa cases I’ve seen on college campuses. They register, somehow they’re approved and get a card in the mail.
The risk off getting caught being in the country illegally, which increases when you fraudulently vote in an election, dumbass.
Lol cite a single polling place that allows voting without identification.
Growing up in MA, I’ve never been asked for an ID to vote. Where do you live?
https://ballotpedia.org/Voter_identification_laws_by_state
A control+f shows 17 matches… I’m sure you can read the rest.
Edit: @MegaUltraChicken@lemmy.world Want to tell me why you downvoted me for providing evidence that 17 states don’t have an ID requirement to vote?
You’re making it out like states that don’t require a photo ID at the time of filling in a ballot have zero checks on the identity of a voter. I only looked at a few, notably California since you have brought it up, and that is not the case. The identity verification happens during registration and then again under certain conditions.
Even if an undocumented person went to vote in California they’d have to use a provisional ballot and that would of course be checked and rejected.
Now you’ve moved the goal post. The question comment I answered was
Lol cite a single polling place that allows voting without identification.
Which I successfully answered.
If you want to continue the conversation to registrations then I would point you to states that automatically register people who participate in government actions like registering their cars. Registering a car in some states will automatically register you to vote. What process of registering your car proves that you’re a citizen and should be eligible to vote?
And before you go twisting my words again. I’m not stating that this is happening on some impossible insurmountable scale. But it’s certainly happening. The government fucks up all the time… This process would be no different.
My point is still that there is no risk to an illegal alien to attempt to vote. The worst that happens is the vote is caught the thrown out.
I’m not the person you responded to and I’ve moved no goalposts. I’m pointing out that you’re misrepresenting reality to make your point. I’m in a state (Georgia) that gives you the option to register to vote when getting or renewing your license. On the form it is simply a checkbox. This seems like a clearly abusable system if you do as you have, which is to look at the surface level of the situation and cry foul, but the underlying reality is different.
In order to get my license I was required to provide documentation of my citizenship (in my case an original birth certificate) as well as evidence of my current address (in my case a utility bill). This underlying evidence is what is used to control my voter registration and prove I’m eligible to vote. Car registration is supposed to be tied to your home address and is handled by parts of the local government that share information, so being given an option to update an address for voting purposes when updating registration makes sense to me. I am not aware of if that is possible on my state. While I do not personally have experience with obtaining a license while not being a citizen and resident of my state, I know that whatever process exists for that doesn’t also allow you to register to vote.
If you’d like one I’ll give you a goalpost. Prove me wrong and show me a single state where a non-citizen can register to vote, go to a polling place and vote, and then have that vote counted.
If you’d like one I’ll give you a goalpost. Prove me wrong and show me a single state where a non-citizen can register to vote, go to a polling place and vote, and then have that vote counted.
https://www.npr.org/2022/12/21/1144265521/florida-voter-fraud-cases-prosecution-update
Here’s evidence of someone who was ineligible obtaining a card and attempting to vote, although not an illegal alien. This should show sufficiently that the system isn’t perfect and that people can obtain voter registration when they should otherwise be ineligible.
And here’s evidence of illegal aliens voting and getting caught. This speaks that they’re at the minimum attempts to vote. We can safely assume that we don’t catch 100% of violators. And further don’t necessarily catch those that were successfully able to register without being found out since those would raise much less red flags if they successfully get onto a register in the first place.
If that’s not enough for you…
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/03/06/truth-about-noncitizen-voting-federal-elections/
There is scattered evidence of noncitizens voting in federal elections — sometime by mistake (such as erroneously thinking they were eligible while getting a driver’s license) but also with nefarious intent. […]
A large percentage of the cases took place in North Carolina, where authorities have been aggressive in targeting noncitizen voting.
So when looked for… States that are aggressive about it find much more. And look at that NC… Almost like the link above now makes a ton more sense.
In 2022, Georgia announced that it had completed a citizenship review of the state’s voter rolls and discovered that 1,634 people over 25 years had attempted to register to vote even though they were not U.S. citizens. But none had been permitted to register to vote and, thus, had not cast ballots.
But how many managed to register and then subsequently vote? You really think they got 100% success rate?
Richman said he found that 1,934 voters (0.43 percent of Arizona voting-age noncitizens) had records that indicated they were not citizens at the time they registered or after registering to vote. There are more than 4 million registered voters in Arizona, so the noncitizen segment would be about 0.04 percent.
“These sources all align quite well in terms of suggesting that the likely rate of noncitizen registration or attempted registration nationwide is slightly less than one percent” and a voting participation of half a percent, Richman wrote. “I conclude that the incidence of noncitizen participation or attempted participation in U.S. and Arizona elections (through registration or voting) is low, but nonzero.”
Can we stop claiming that it doesn’t happen? And that there’s some risk involved when they do it? Every article that talks about it downplays it heavily. You can levy fines on illegal immigrants, they’re not supposed to work in the US anyway (and thus good luck garnishing wages), and according to the law deporting them isn’t on the table for attempting to vote illegally (check the second link). The most you can do is incarcerate them… except many states don’t typically like incarcerating non-violent criminals anymore. There is virtually no risk for walking in and casting a vote, even though it is supposed to be illegal.
As opposed to foreign autocrats like Putin buying votes, which is perfectly fine… Perfectly fine.
Everyone always talks about govt/buisnesses taking bribes from the rich, but never about the rich taking bribes from foreign companies/govts.
Pretty interesting alternative “political system” we’ve installed with our current economic system. Surely not a backdoor to ruin any current govt systems or hold them hostage
Foreign autocrats don’t need to buy the votes, they buy the politicians directly.
What about the registered Republican voters that have voted twice for Trump in 2020 and got busted? That’s not a myth.
This is older than than NPR admits. The threat of foreign others “ruining the country” by voting goes back to 1865 and emancipated black men getting the franchise.
The false notion that undocumented immigrants are affecting federal elections has been floating around for over 100 years.
The fact that we haven’t dispelled a myth for a hundred years does not give me a lot of hope of convincing people they may be wrong.
Moreover, how it is at all possible for figure heads like Trump and Musk continue to get away with these lies and convince people the lies are facts, is just… I just don’t even know. I can’t wrap my head around it. It’s got a very “flat earth” vibe to it.
Great article. Lots of good points I’m sure no one who actually has a concern over this will bother to read.
I can’t wrap my head around it.
Tump and Musk know exactly what they’re doing. The capitalist class uses racism and immigrant fearmongering to sow working class division and keep its focus away from its real enemy: the capitalist class.
Edit to add: Capitalists, often illegally, exploit immigrants for cheap labor, so you know their rhetoric is bullshit. How Capitalism Perpetuates Immigration
The fact that we haven’t dispelled a myth for a hundred years does not give me a lot of hope of convincing people they may be wrong
The people pushing it are probably aware it’s not true and definitely don’t care either way. They want cult members to threaten and intimidate anyone brown because the numbers say they’re more likely to vote Democrat.
Why the fuck would non-citizens want to vote so badly that they would risk their situation to do it? It makes no sense at all
I pointed this out to a conservative coworker years ago . He asked me if illegal immigrants voted since I am an immigrant. I told him “if American’s don’t vote what makes you think immigrants would”, he just replied with “right, that makes sense”.
The point is to rile up their chuds enough to go out and harass citizens who look like they may not be citizens (racial minorities) in order to scare them away from legally voting.
Not aided by putting their propaganda at the front of your headline.
God dammit.
But there not worried about foreign money influencing the campaign.
You didn’t know? Money - all money - is automatically granted U.S. citizenship upon minting.
Thanks, Citizens United.
I mean “vote early vote often” was a phrase out of Chicago and I’m pretty sure the Jungle was based in a bit of truth.
No, I don’t Believe this is actually happening, just pointing out there may have been some truth to it.
Men have been to the moon. It doesn’t mean the moon is accessible.
Having a basis in truth as a concept is not the same as being a common occurrence that should foster concern.
Using one to cause the other is pretty disingenuous.
The party owned by Putin is concerned about foreign influence. Interesting.
