Joe Biden called on world leaders to stand by Ukraine in its struggle to eject Russian troops, even as Kyiv’s allies said they now expect the war to last for years to come.
There are other perspectives on this matter that disagree with USA narrative you just repeated. I would go as far as to say that it is US propaganda. To your surprise, most of the world does not agree with what you are describing.
Then the rest of the world ought to read Putin’s own essay on what he thinks of Ukraine, I can’t be bothered to link it right now but it’s on the Kremlin’s official website if you want to read it yourself. This invasion is a blatant, imperialist landgrab.
In good faith that you are willing to be further educated, here is a great analysis from 7 years ago with historic basis and up to the point, predicting precisely the events that started in 2022 by a great American scholar
A Diplomatic event with decades of history and you believe that one day the evil Putin wanted to take land? This is a joke. As for critique from Russian media, the same exists for Ukrainian critics (if they have not been imprisoned and tortured or ousted by the Nazi regime), as well as US media covering the other side of the coin. Please study some history, it is very important
Russia was very clear what their red lines were, even back in like 2009. NATO kept pushing the issue. Then, by their own admission, teams like the US 4th PsyOps orchestrated Euromaidan to overthrow the Ukrainian government. Ukraine might be mostly innocent here, but neither Russia nor NATO are.
I’m so excited for you! You have so much history to learn about!
But do keep cheering for a fascist dictator
Fascism is, despite what liberals will tell you, not an abstract concept but rather a concrete historical phenomenon that gained it’s name during the rise of the anti-communist movement known as the Third Reich in Germany. Adolf Hitler, the leader of the Third Reich, wrote about his vision, motivation, ambitions, and inspiration in Mein Kampf. In it, he describes how much he admired the systems that the USA inherited from the Netherlands, France, England, and Spain and perfected - systems of slavery, apartheid, eugenics, prison labor, propaganda, cultural genocide, industrial mass murder, land appropriation, scientific racism, child separation, and permanent underclass maintenance. In Mein Kampf, Hitler details his aspirations to take the American system and use it to dominate the Slavs in the same way that the USA dominated indigenous and black peoples. In this way, we see how fascism was not born in Germany but rather named in Germany and born in the European colonies and most highly developed in the USA.
When Germany turned the North Atlantic colonial project towards white people in Europe, it became something that challenged the USA’s burgeoning economic hegemony. It was allowed to proceed so long as it looked like it would destroy the USSR, which was the primary ideological threat to the North Atlantic project for global domination. But when the USSR demonstrated it was not merely capable of defending itself but of marching all the way across Europe and fully defeating history’s most advanced military at the time, the USA needed to intervene and ensure the USSR didn’t control the end state after having defeated 80% of all German troops.
So the USA intervened and implemented Operation Paperclip where it protected Nazi members and officials and distributed them around the world, often in positions of power. It then built NATO and staffed it with Nazi officers and then executed Operation Gladio in which the USA coordinated, established, trained, armed, funded, and facilitated “stay-behind” militias of Nazis all over Europe. In this way, we see that the USA didn’t defeat fascism, it birthed it, internationalized it, protected it, incubated it, and used it to advance it’s aims.
In a very historically accurate way, it is almost impossible to call Putin a fascist. The fascists have always been the white North Atlantians and they continue to be. In a very historical way, the Nazis in Ukraine are the result of Operation Gladio and the funding, training, supporting, and facilitation of those Nazis by the USA is in no way aberrant but in fact completely congruent with 80 years of USA activity in Europe.
everything to oppose evil America, right? No matter how many innocents die.
When you see it, you won’t be able to unsee it. America has killed more innocents than USSR+Russia has by at least one order of magnitude. Everything to oppose evil America is motivated entirely by the desire to minimize the total number of innocents killed. America will not stop when asked nicely. They have demonstrated this for the last 100 years of mass murder of innocents all over the world, so inevitably, any resistance of the USA will result in the death of innocents. The US pioneered the modern formulation of proxy war and it is incredibly deadly to innocents. This war in Ukraine is not different. It is a USA proxy war against Russia.
If you don’t think America has killed that many innocents, just tally up the death tolls of indigenous Americans, blacks, and Asians domestically, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Korea, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, The Philippines, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia, Yemen, Libya, Syria, Ghana, Chad, Palestine, Cuba, Nicaragua, Bolivia, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Venezuela, Guatemala, El Salvador, Iran, Haiti, Honduras, Paraguay, Congo, Russia, Al-Qaeda, The School of the Americas, the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, just to start your education.
Stopping America will save more innocents than trying to save innocents by appeasing America.
Happy reading! I hope you enjoy the learning process as much as I did!
Try to do some reasoning here. The USA is the most violent country on the planet, responsible for more deaths than any other country in the modern era. The only country to use nukes on the battlefield and they used them kill civilians while negotiating a surrender. The country that enslaves the largest number of their own people for profit. The country that maintains fascism throughout the world.
Russia isn’t allowed to do this because the USA is worse. Russia has no other choice but to push back the violent fascist nuclear military expansion of the USA because of it doesn’t the USA will have Russia in a kettle, surrounded by nuclear first strike capabilities. The last time the USA had even a modicum of influence over Russia it killed millions of Russians through economics alone. If the USA finally got NATO nuclear capabilities into Ukraine the way it’s been planning to do for 30 years against the protests of literally every sane person and also of Russian peace negotiations and national security concerns, it would be capable and has shown willing it would kill millions of Russians to balkanize it and turn it into a vast US military base, strip mine, and labor camp.
The reality is that proxy wars kill tons of people, and the responsibility lies with the proxy master. In this case, Ukraine is the USA’s proxy in a war with Russia. The USA causes this war. Without the USA’s actions, Russia would have never needed to take Crimea, would have never needed to send troops to protect the Donbass, and would have never needed to launch this SMO. All of these innocent deaths are deaths in a proxy war launched by the USA.
What’s insane is believing that the USA is “bad” but that everyone else is worse. What’s insane is believing that the USA killing millions of people and administration genocides continuously for a century is going to be resolved without war. The body count in Ukraine is on the hands of the USA and is still so much smaller than the rest of the USA’s body count. Ending US hegemony is the only way to save the lives of Innocents.
The bloodbath is being sustained by the west because they keep providing weapons to Ukraine in a war that THEY (USA) provoked and that cannot be won. Key point in the conflict is when Ukraine withdrew from negotiations after Boris Johnson’s meeting with Zelensky. Since that day more close to half a million people have died. Whoever can use reason and think for his own, can understand what that means.
The fighting will immediately stop when the west stops providing money and weapons
Bollocks. The fighting will stop when Russia fucks off. What is this concern trolling shit you’re doing? “Just roll over and let Russia take your country, then fewer people will die”. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Oh yeah? Who backed off from the negotiations in April 2022? Remember what was Russia’s demands? I bet you are clueless and you cannot accept the facts. Yet you call me the troll and should be ashamed? It’s people like you that are the core of the problem
You mean the border that the Euro-Centric world has invaded Russia over twice, causing the deaths of millions of Russians each time? That border? The one which the world’s most advanced nuclear military has been marching towards for decades with an army explicitly designed to counter Russian technology? The one the US planned to install nuclear capabilities along?
That border?
The war is over the minute the USA comes to the negotiating table. They’ve been invited a dozen times over the last 20 years to come to some agreement that doesn’t involve dismantling MAD and establishing nuclear first-strike capabilities. They refuse and say it’s their right to dismantle MAD even if it means launching proxy wars and causing the death of millions of citizens in those proxies, even if it means arming and training Nazis through Operation Gladio, appointing Nazis to leadership of NATO, and vetoing all attempts by the international community to ban the glorification of Nazis through the UN.
There is one root cause of this war, and it’s the USA. NATO officials have said it, the USA has said it, Russia has said it, China has said it, the academy has said it, the anti-war block has said it, BRICS+ has said it.
The only people who think Russia is the problem here are you and your terminally online liberals.
Seems like if Ukrainians want to live in, or become a part of Russia, they could’ve just done it.
It seems like Russians are trying to force Ukrainians to do something they don’t want to do. What exactly gives them the right? Seems like an invasion to me. If it were liberation, the Ukrainians wouldn’t be fighting back so hard.
They’d probably have more of their citizens turning on their military, too. But the opposite seems to be happening.
What are you talking about “liberation” for? Russia isn’t liberating anyone. Russia is reestablishing the conditions for its national security. Previously those conditions were maintained by a neutral Ukraine. Once the right-wing coup happened, with John McCain and Victoria Nuland physically there (literally handing out cookies) and celebrating a great victory for democracy in Ukraine, Russia’s national security was threatened. It was easily solvable. Don’t expand NATO nuclear capabilities to the Russian border, hold elections, stop killing all the people who were voting for neutral candidates. But the US refused to do anything except continue to expand its threat to Russia.
Russia has no interest in Ukraine. It is a proxy and it is being destroyed in a proxy war. The Russian state position, expressed by Putin, about Ukraine is a position born of the necessity of justifying the war without explicitly saying that Russia is fighting against the USA, because that escalates the war to a direct conflict and no nation can really handle a direct conflict with the USA.
Russia did invade, absolutely. Russia is not there as liberators, absolutely. This has nothing to do with Russia telling Ukraine what to do and everything with the USA telling Ukraine what to do and killing anyone who disagrees with them.
All these things you claim aren’t happening actually are, you just won’t read about it in the Washington Post.
Many Ukrainians did try to leave, they held referendums of secession which were laughed at by the west. Then they were besieged by what is ostensibly their own government. One of the goals of the Ukrainian government is to eradicate all common history with Russia, and that includes people of Russian heritage. No wonder they want to or have left. Donbas was constantly shelled for eight years before Russia finally came in to say enough is enough. Crimea’s fresh water supply has been held hostage by the Ukrainian government. Even many of those in more privileged positions have left, as Ukraine is the worst economically performing country in the world since the fall of the USSR.
Russia has taken in the largest number of refugees from Ukraine. Many Ukrainians from Crimea and Donbas have been fighting for the liberation of their communities against the fascist and ethno-nationalist Kiev regime. People in the western regions of Ukraine have been fed ethno-nationalist propaganda for so long that the country is horribly divided. Opposition political parties and media are prohibited. Without this bath of propaganda and such huge support from western capitalists this war would have never even begun, but the US must vassalize or destroy all possible threats to its hegemony.
Many Ukranian citizens have turned on the military, in that they’ve left. Now the west has begun to send fighting age men back, as the US and NATO will fight this war against Russia to the last Ukrainian. Many are simply surrendering to Russian forces, as even if they wanted to fight they don’t have the equipment, training, strategy, or manpower.
Even once the war ends what’s left of Ukraine will belong to US private investment funds and the more fanatical ethno-nationalist Ukrainians will start terrorizing Europe as revenge for not having killed every last Russian or whatever it is that Azov and Co preach now.
Looks like Ukrainians voted 92.3% in favor of independence from Russia.
What are you referring to when you say ‘Then they were besieged by what is ostensibly their own government.’?
as Ukraine is the worst economically performing country in the world since the fall of the USSR
Starting to think you’re talking bullshit, here. Have you seen Haiti?
I dunno man, looks like you’re kind of just crafting a narrative without any legitimate reason to support it.
The fact you’re swinging in the complete opposite direction of Ukrainian propaganda kind of just makes you look like you’re falling for and perpetuating Russian propaganda.
The information is out there if you care to look for it. You can also stick your head in the sand and blindly call reality “Russian propaganda.” Reality doesn’t care. I could say the same to you in terms of crafting a narrative. What’s the legitimate reason to support the fascist Kiev regime? Blackrock has a legitimate interest, maybe some oil and agriculture oligarchs.
Anyway, if you’re interested this may be an interesting place to start reading some historical context.
By besieged I mean just that. Donbas was shelled for eight years by the Kiev regime’s armed forces. There has been a civil war in Ukraine for almost a decade, one that borders on genocide against people of Russian heritage. Western media at least admitted this was happening until early 2022, now it’s considered a Russian conspiracy theory. Thousands of children and civilians have been killed by western supported Ukrainian armed forces in Donbas, and we’re just supposed to not care and call it fake news? What about the internationally mediated and agreed upon Minsk ceasefire treaties which Kiev just ignored?
In terms of referendums I was talking about the Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk ones. Here’s a report some years on about Crimean’s feelings on the situation.
In terms of economic performance, Ukraine’s GDP has contracted since 1991, Haiti’s has grown. It’s an imperfect measurement of course, but at least a fair playing field. Same goes for population. You can cut out 2022 given the war if you like, but the trends don’t change significantly.
Yeah, ‘just find it yourself’ is a real shitty response when pressed for sources.
You can ‘find’ anything on the internet if you look hard enough. That doesn’t mean it’s accurate.
It’s better to be on the same page about where we’re getting our information from. In this case, it looks like you shared some very biased sources. Now everyone know you’re getting your information from fringe news that has an agenda to push and isn’t influenced by journalistic integrity.
Hideo Kojima was right. There’s so much misinformation and half-truths on the internet, that anyone can believe what they want and they will have no shortage of ‘sources’ agreeing with them.
I’m not saying you’re right or wrong, just that you may be influenced by the same propaganda tactics you’re accusing others of.
In terms of economic performance, Ukraine’s GDP has contracted since 1991, Haiti’s has grown.
This little tidbit right here makes it seem like you’re arguing in bad faith, though. The economies of Ukraine and Haiti are nowhere near comparable. It looks like you’re just trying to twist your brain in knots to avoid saying anything good about Ukraine, which leads me to believe you have been heavily influenced by propaganda.
So you want unbiased sources like the NYT that knowingly printed lies from the US government to justify war in Iraq? How about the newspapers who knowingly lied about Tonkin? The ones that knowing lied about Cuba?
Do you know how far back this goes? Did you know the Opium Wars launched against China by the British were sparked by newspapers printing lies about China? Do you know who owned those newspapers? The British opium dealers. One of those was the family of Forbes. They took their opium money and invested in US railroads, then they took that money and made a global financial empire and a newspaper.
There are no unbiased sources. Everything you think is unbiased is actually North Atlantic propaganda.
It looks like we have to start at a much more basic level. I’d suggest starting with the books Inventing Reality by Michael Parenti and Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky.
The fact that you reject the sources I provided outright without considering them on their merits and the primary sources they cite says all I need to know about having a conversation in good faith.
Coincidentally supporters of the fascist Kiev regime also twist their brains into knots. If you pressed me I’m not sure I could say anything good about the modern Ukrainian state. It’s a neoliberal nightmare, making life significantly worse for its citizens and residents, it’s killing civilians in cold blood, it’s threatening terrorist actions against supposed allies, it’s using Nazi symbology and fascist political strategy, and it’s taking actions that could result in nuclear war. It’s doing all this so that a few billionaires can collect a few more millions or billions. How is this defensible?
Forever wars are great for business. Fucking ghouls.
If only there was a country that could easily end the war by simply withdrawing back behind its borders…
But do keep cheering for a fascist dictator – everything to oppose evil America, right? No matter how many innocents die.
Sometimes it’s hard to go after the killer when the calls are coming from within the house
There are other perspectives on this matter that disagree with USA narrative you just repeated. I would go as far as to say that it is US propaganda. To your surprise, most of the world does not agree with what you are describing.
Then the rest of the world ought to read Putin’s own essay on what he thinks of Ukraine, I can’t be bothered to link it right now but it’s on the Kremlin’s official website if you want to read it yourself. This invasion is a blatant, imperialist landgrab.
This is just your interpretation of it, being subjected to US propaganda. I repeat, most of the wolrd does not share this opinion
It’s not open to interpretation, it’s plain as fucking day. Do you even bother reading Russian media? Because they openly admitted to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4&list=PLz7H2EMyhtnOX7n9MqrVpglUf_jijwo7f&index=65
In good faith that you are willing to be further educated, here is a great analysis from 7 years ago with historic basis and up to the point, predicting precisely the events that started in 2022 by a great American scholar
A Diplomatic event with decades of history and you believe that one day the evil Putin wanted to take land? This is a joke. As for critique from Russian media, the same exists for Ukrainian critics (if they have not been imprisoned and tortured or ousted by the Nazi regime), as well as US media covering the other side of the coin. Please study some history, it is very important
Russia was very clear what their red lines were, even back in like 2009. NATO kept pushing the issue. Then, by their own admission, teams like the US 4th PsyOps orchestrated Euromaidan to overthrow the Ukrainian government. Ukraine might be mostly innocent here, but neither Russia nor NATO are.
I’m so excited for you! You have so much history to learn about!
Fascism is, despite what liberals will tell you, not an abstract concept but rather a concrete historical phenomenon that gained it’s name during the rise of the anti-communist movement known as the Third Reich in Germany. Adolf Hitler, the leader of the Third Reich, wrote about his vision, motivation, ambitions, and inspiration in Mein Kampf. In it, he describes how much he admired the systems that the USA inherited from the Netherlands, France, England, and Spain and perfected - systems of slavery, apartheid, eugenics, prison labor, propaganda, cultural genocide, industrial mass murder, land appropriation, scientific racism, child separation, and permanent underclass maintenance. In Mein Kampf, Hitler details his aspirations to take the American system and use it to dominate the Slavs in the same way that the USA dominated indigenous and black peoples. In this way, we see how fascism was not born in Germany but rather named in Germany and born in the European colonies and most highly developed in the USA.
When Germany turned the North Atlantic colonial project towards white people in Europe, it became something that challenged the USA’s burgeoning economic hegemony. It was allowed to proceed so long as it looked like it would destroy the USSR, which was the primary ideological threat to the North Atlantic project for global domination. But when the USSR demonstrated it was not merely capable of defending itself but of marching all the way across Europe and fully defeating history’s most advanced military at the time, the USA needed to intervene and ensure the USSR didn’t control the end state after having defeated 80% of all German troops.
So the USA intervened and implemented Operation Paperclip where it protected Nazi members and officials and distributed them around the world, often in positions of power. It then built NATO and staffed it with Nazi officers and then executed Operation Gladio in which the USA coordinated, established, trained, armed, funded, and facilitated “stay-behind” militias of Nazis all over Europe. In this way, we see that the USA didn’t defeat fascism, it birthed it, internationalized it, protected it, incubated it, and used it to advance it’s aims.
In a very historically accurate way, it is almost impossible to call Putin a fascist. The fascists have always been the white North Atlantians and they continue to be. In a very historical way, the Nazis in Ukraine are the result of Operation Gladio and the funding, training, supporting, and facilitation of those Nazis by the USA is in no way aberrant but in fact completely congruent with 80 years of USA activity in Europe.
When you see it, you won’t be able to unsee it. America has killed more innocents than USSR+Russia has by at least one order of magnitude. Everything to oppose evil America is motivated entirely by the desire to minimize the total number of innocents killed. America will not stop when asked nicely. They have demonstrated this for the last 100 years of mass murder of innocents all over the world, so inevitably, any resistance of the USA will result in the death of innocents. The US pioneered the modern formulation of proxy war and it is incredibly deadly to innocents. This war in Ukraine is not different. It is a USA proxy war against Russia.
If you don’t think America has killed that many innocents, just tally up the death tolls of indigenous Americans, blacks, and Asians domestically, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Korea, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, The Philippines, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia, Yemen, Libya, Syria, Ghana, Chad, Palestine, Cuba, Nicaragua, Bolivia, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Venezuela, Guatemala, El Salvador, Iran, Haiti, Honduras, Paraguay, Congo, Russia, Al-Qaeda, The School of the Americas, the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, just to start your education.
Stopping America will save more innocents than trying to save innocents by appeasing America.
Happy reading! I hope you enjoy the learning process as much as I did!
These are the informative posts I come to lemmy for.
I might not agree with everything you’re saying, but I’m glad you’re sharing more than just memes and dumb jokes.
deleted by creator
Try to do some reasoning here. The USA is the most violent country on the planet, responsible for more deaths than any other country in the modern era. The only country to use nukes on the battlefield and they used them kill civilians while negotiating a surrender. The country that enslaves the largest number of their own people for profit. The country that maintains fascism throughout the world.
Russia isn’t allowed to do this because the USA is worse. Russia has no other choice but to push back the violent fascist nuclear military expansion of the USA because of it doesn’t the USA will have Russia in a kettle, surrounded by nuclear first strike capabilities. The last time the USA had even a modicum of influence over Russia it killed millions of Russians through economics alone. If the USA finally got NATO nuclear capabilities into Ukraine the way it’s been planning to do for 30 years against the protests of literally every sane person and also of Russian peace negotiations and national security concerns, it would be capable and has shown willing it would kill millions of Russians to balkanize it and turn it into a vast US military base, strip mine, and labor camp.
The reality is that proxy wars kill tons of people, and the responsibility lies with the proxy master. In this case, Ukraine is the USA’s proxy in a war with Russia. The USA causes this war. Without the USA’s actions, Russia would have never needed to take Crimea, would have never needed to send troops to protect the Donbass, and would have never needed to launch this SMO. All of these innocent deaths are deaths in a proxy war launched by the USA.
What’s insane is believing that the USA is “bad” but that everyone else is worse. What’s insane is believing that the USA killing millions of people and administration genocides continuously for a century is going to be resolved without war. The body count in Ukraine is on the hands of the USA and is still so much smaller than the rest of the USA’s body count. Ending US hegemony is the only way to save the lives of Innocents.
Removed by mod
You know what they say - if you can’t beat 'em, label them and use social exclusionary techniques to avoid needing to address their criticisms.
I agree! The Russians are ghouls for continuing this horrid bloodbath. They should withdraw to the internationally recognised border immediately.
The bloodbath is being sustained by the west because they keep providing weapons to Ukraine in a war that THEY (USA) provoked and that cannot be won. Key point in the conflict is when Ukraine withdrew from negotiations after Boris Johnson’s meeting with Zelensky. Since that day more close to half a million people have died. Whoever can use reason and think for his own, can understand what that means. The fighting will immediately stop when the west stops providing money and weapons
Bollocks. The fighting will stop when Russia fucks off. What is this concern trolling shit you’re doing? “Just roll over and let Russia take your country, then fewer people will die”. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Oh yeah? Who backed off from the negotiations in April 2022? Remember what was Russia’s demands? I bet you are clueless and you cannot accept the facts. Yet you call me the troll and should be ashamed? It’s people like you that are the core of the problem
You mean the border that the Euro-Centric world has invaded Russia over twice, causing the deaths of millions of Russians each time? That border? The one which the world’s most advanced nuclear military has been marching towards for decades with an army explicitly designed to counter Russian technology? The one the US planned to install nuclear capabilities along?
That border?
The war is over the minute the USA comes to the negotiating table. They’ve been invited a dozen times over the last 20 years to come to some agreement that doesn’t involve dismantling MAD and establishing nuclear first-strike capabilities. They refuse and say it’s their right to dismantle MAD even if it means launching proxy wars and causing the death of millions of citizens in those proxies, even if it means arming and training Nazis through Operation Gladio, appointing Nazis to leadership of NATO, and vetoing all attempts by the international community to ban the glorification of Nazis through the UN.
There is one root cause of this war, and it’s the USA. NATO officials have said it, the USA has said it, Russia has said it, China has said it, the academy has said it, the anti-war block has said it, BRICS+ has said it.
The only people who think Russia is the problem here are you and your terminally online liberals.
I dunno about that, man.
Seems like if Ukrainians want to live in, or become a part of Russia, they could’ve just done it.
It seems like Russians are trying to force Ukrainians to do something they don’t want to do. What exactly gives them the right? Seems like an invasion to me. If it were liberation, the Ukrainians wouldn’t be fighting back so hard.
They’d probably have more of their citizens turning on their military, too. But the opposite seems to be happening.
What are you talking about “liberation” for? Russia isn’t liberating anyone. Russia is reestablishing the conditions for its national security. Previously those conditions were maintained by a neutral Ukraine. Once the right-wing coup happened, with John McCain and Victoria Nuland physically there (literally handing out cookies) and celebrating a great victory for democracy in Ukraine, Russia’s national security was threatened. It was easily solvable. Don’t expand NATO nuclear capabilities to the Russian border, hold elections, stop killing all the people who were voting for neutral candidates. But the US refused to do anything except continue to expand its threat to Russia.
Russia has no interest in Ukraine. It is a proxy and it is being destroyed in a proxy war. The Russian state position, expressed by Putin, about Ukraine is a position born of the necessity of justifying the war without explicitly saying that Russia is fighting against the USA, because that escalates the war to a direct conflict and no nation can really handle a direct conflict with the USA.
Russia did invade, absolutely. Russia is not there as liberators, absolutely. This has nothing to do with Russia telling Ukraine what to do and everything with the USA telling Ukraine what to do and killing anyone who disagrees with them.
All these things you claim aren’t happening actually are, you just won’t read about it in the Washington Post.
Many Ukrainians did try to leave, they held referendums of secession which were laughed at by the west. Then they were besieged by what is ostensibly their own government. One of the goals of the Ukrainian government is to eradicate all common history with Russia, and that includes people of Russian heritage. No wonder they want to or have left. Donbas was constantly shelled for eight years before Russia finally came in to say enough is enough. Crimea’s fresh water supply has been held hostage by the Ukrainian government. Even many of those in more privileged positions have left, as Ukraine is the worst economically performing country in the world since the fall of the USSR.
Russia has taken in the largest number of refugees from Ukraine. Many Ukrainians from Crimea and Donbas have been fighting for the liberation of their communities against the fascist and ethno-nationalist Kiev regime. People in the western regions of Ukraine have been fed ethno-nationalist propaganda for so long that the country is horribly divided. Opposition political parties and media are prohibited. Without this bath of propaganda and such huge support from western capitalists this war would have never even begun, but the US must vassalize or destroy all possible threats to its hegemony.
Many Ukranian citizens have turned on the military, in that they’ve left. Now the west has begun to send fighting age men back, as the US and NATO will fight this war against Russia to the last Ukrainian. Many are simply surrendering to Russian forces, as even if they wanted to fight they don’t have the equipment, training, strategy, or manpower.
Even once the war ends what’s left of Ukraine will belong to US private investment funds and the more fanatical ethno-nationalist Ukrainians will start terrorizing Europe as revenge for not having killed every last Russian or whatever it is that Azov and Co preach now.
Do you mean this referendum of secession: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum
Looks like Ukrainians voted 92.3% in favor of independence from Russia.
What are you referring to when you say ‘Then they were besieged by what is ostensibly their own government.’?
Starting to think you’re talking bullshit, here. Have you seen Haiti?
I dunno man, looks like you’re kind of just crafting a narrative without any legitimate reason to support it.
The fact you’re swinging in the complete opposite direction of Ukrainian propaganda kind of just makes you look like you’re falling for and perpetuating Russian propaganda.
The information is out there if you care to look for it. You can also stick your head in the sand and blindly call reality “Russian propaganda.” Reality doesn’t care. I could say the same to you in terms of crafting a narrative. What’s the legitimate reason to support the fascist Kiev regime? Blackrock has a legitimate interest, maybe some oil and agriculture oligarchs.
Anyway, if you’re interested this may be an interesting place to start reading some historical context.
https://www.liberationnews.org/should-we-really-blame-nato-for-the-ukraine-war/
By besieged I mean just that. Donbas was shelled for eight years by the Kiev regime’s armed forces. There has been a civil war in Ukraine for almost a decade, one that borders on genocide against people of Russian heritage. Western media at least admitted this was happening until early 2022, now it’s considered a Russian conspiracy theory. Thousands of children and civilians have been killed by western supported Ukrainian armed forces in Donbas, and we’re just supposed to not care and call it fake news? What about the internationally mediated and agreed upon Minsk ceasefire treaties which Kiev just ignored?
In terms of referendums I was talking about the Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk ones. Here’s a report some years on about Crimean’s feelings on the situation.
https://www.mintpressnews.com/return-russia-crimea-story-referendum-lives-since/262247/
In terms of economic performance, Ukraine’s GDP has contracted since 1991, Haiti’s has grown. It’s an imperfect measurement of course, but at least a fair playing field. Same goes for population. You can cut out 2022 given the war if you like, but the trends don’t change significantly.
Yeah, ‘just find it yourself’ is a real shitty response when pressed for sources.
You can ‘find’ anything on the internet if you look hard enough. That doesn’t mean it’s accurate.
It’s better to be on the same page about where we’re getting our information from. In this case, it looks like you shared some very biased sources. Now everyone know you’re getting your information from fringe news that has an agenda to push and isn’t influenced by journalistic integrity.
Hideo Kojima was right. There’s so much misinformation and half-truths on the internet, that anyone can believe what they want and they will have no shortage of ‘sources’ agreeing with them.
I’m not saying you’re right or wrong, just that you may be influenced by the same propaganda tactics you’re accusing others of.
This little tidbit right here makes it seem like you’re arguing in bad faith, though. The economies of Ukraine and Haiti are nowhere near comparable. It looks like you’re just trying to twist your brain in knots to avoid saying anything good about Ukraine, which leads me to believe you have been heavily influenced by propaganda.
So you want unbiased sources like the NYT that knowingly printed lies from the US government to justify war in Iraq? How about the newspapers who knowingly lied about Tonkin? The ones that knowing lied about Cuba?
Do you know how far back this goes? Did you know the Opium Wars launched against China by the British were sparked by newspapers printing lies about China? Do you know who owned those newspapers? The British opium dealers. One of those was the family of Forbes. They took their opium money and invested in US railroads, then they took that money and made a global financial empire and a newspaper.
There are no unbiased sources. Everything you think is unbiased is actually North Atlantic propaganda.
It looks like we have to start at a much more basic level. I’d suggest starting with the books Inventing Reality by Michael Parenti and Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky.
The fact that you reject the sources I provided outright without considering them on their merits and the primary sources they cite says all I need to know about having a conversation in good faith.
Coincidentally supporters of the fascist Kiev regime also twist their brains into knots. If you pressed me I’m not sure I could say anything good about the modern Ukrainian state. It’s a neoliberal nightmare, making life significantly worse for its citizens and residents, it’s killing civilians in cold blood, it’s threatening terrorist actions against supposed allies, it’s using Nazi symbology and fascist political strategy, and it’s taking actions that could result in nuclear war. It’s doing all this so that a few billionaires can collect a few more millions or billions. How is this defensible?