I find tipping culture really hard to understand. And to defend.
It gives a leverage, better treatment, and attention to whoever got the most money to spare. It’s basically legalised corruption.
I find it really strange that tipping is defended in this forum.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t tip, considering material reality. I’m saying that tipping culture should not be defended, and discussing the political implications of tipping/not tipping.
If consumers (as a class, not wealthy consumers) all boycott (idealistic, I know) tipping altogether, all at once, it creates the pressure to look into legislation, because being a waiter living off tips becomes unbearable. That’s for the businesses to fix, probably following market rules (that are still a useful tool of analysis, in some contexts). Less supply of cheap labour increases price of said labour. There’s a shitty transition phase, but it improves conditions for the working class on the longer run.
Personally, I refuse to be served by a worker working on tips, just like I refuse to be served by an enslaved person. I obviously don’t eat out too often, and tipping is not a requirement here.
We all want tipping banned, and we want to boycott restaurants that pay their waitstaff this way.
However, in the current system, if you go out and eat at a restaurant something that is a luxury, then refuse to pay, all you are doing is being a dick too and hurting a random proletariat worker. As that tip is the only means through which they can survive.
It is vile. No one is defending this. It is just extremely entitled to believe that you have the right to demand to be served by a working class person, and then stiff them on their means of survival because of some backwards morality.
A moral person would not go to a restaurant at all. That’s how you put pressure on the system. If you go to a restaurant and pay, the owner gets paid anyways and has no incentive to change anything. All you accomplish is being a dick to a random prole.
You essentially touch on that with your last few sentences. We are all arguing it is normal and moral to refuse to be served by a tip worker.
However others in the thread are claiming that it is fine to go to a restaurant and be served. They just won’t tip the person after they made them serve them. Which is disgusting.
I can generally agree with you. I think we’re looking at it from distinct angles.
If it’s clear who’s responsible for paying the serving person, I’m OK with it. When it’s all just implied costume, there’s too much room for scamming, intimidation, and exercise of monetary power.
Please explain to me what you mean by this and who exactly exerts this ‘pressure’?
Less supply of cheap labour increases price of said labour
And how is this done exactly? How does ending tipping lead to a decreased supply of ‘cheal labour’. Perhaps it’s due to people who were already on the margins of society going down to $2.13/hour (the US minimum wage for any server) and losing their house then dropping out of the labor pool altogether. That would certainly reduce the supply of ‘cheap labour’ eh? Fucking idiot
There’s a shitty transition phase
Please explain. What are the material realities of this ‘uncomfy’ transition phase
and tipping is not a requirement here
And why is that exactly? Because folks are paid a living wage to begin with?
Listen, if you’re going to flippantly say we need to end tipping you really need to fucking face up to what that actually means and not just ‘hand waive’ peoples lives away as mere market externalities
Please explain to me what you mean by this and who exactly exerts this ‘pressure’?
When all tipping is cut, any and all jobs that pay above $2.13 become immediately better option for all previous tip workers.
And how is this done exactly?
Without tipping, it is illegal to employ workers below minimum wage. The problem is that the law allows it, and everyone complies.
What if one of the interested parties organised to cut short that supply of money? Any attempt to point blame at customers is just capitalists avoiding their responsibility, as usual.
Customers and employees are not enemies. With tipping, you empower rich customers, and cut access to less wealthy people to a pleasing experience with their friends and family.
Please explain. What are the material realities of this ‘uncomfy’ transition phase
Can we really predict all details of the future?
The immediate effect should be that a huge amount of people would have to look for new jobs, if restaurant bourgeoisie won’t raise wages.
Restaurant bourgeoisie is also likely to increase prices in their establishments.
And why is that exactly? Because folks are paid a living wage to begin with?
Yes. Barely, but yet.
I’m not hand waving anything. If the US had a strong proletariat government, this could be supported by state incentives. It wouldn’t even be a issue in the first place.
Without that state incentive, how could things start moving? I’d go for seeding class consciousness between tip workers and customers. Most customers are also working class.
I find tipping culture really hard to understand. And to defend.
It gives a leverage, better treatment, and attention to whoever got the most money to spare. It’s basically legalised corruption.
I find it really strange that tipping is defended in this forum.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t tip, considering material reality. I’m saying that tipping culture should not be defended, and discussing the political implications of tipping/not tipping.
If consumers (as a class, not wealthy consumers) all boycott (idealistic, I know) tipping altogether, all at once, it creates the pressure to look into legislation, because being a waiter living off tips becomes unbearable. That’s for the businesses to fix, probably following market rules (that are still a useful tool of analysis, in some contexts). Less supply of cheap labour increases price of said labour. There’s a shitty transition phase, but it improves conditions for the working class on the longer run.
Personally, I refuse to be served by a worker working on tips, just like I refuse to be served by an enslaved person. I obviously don’t eat out too often, and tipping is not a requirement here.
No one is defending tipping in this forum.
We all want tipping banned, and we want to boycott restaurants that pay their waitstaff this way.
However, in the current system, if you go out and eat at a restaurant something that is a luxury, then refuse to pay, all you are doing is being a dick too and hurting a random proletariat worker. As that tip is the only means through which they can survive.
It is vile. No one is defending this. It is just extremely entitled to believe that you have the right to demand to be served by a working class person, and then stiff them on their means of survival because of some backwards morality.
A moral person would not go to a restaurant at all. That’s how you put pressure on the system. If you go to a restaurant and pay, the owner gets paid anyways and has no incentive to change anything. All you accomplish is being a dick to a random prole.
You essentially touch on that with your last few sentences. We are all arguing it is normal and moral to refuse to be served by a tip worker.
However others in the thread are claiming that it is fine to go to a restaurant and be served. They just won’t tip the person after they made them serve them. Which is disgusting.
I can generally agree with you. I think we’re looking at it from distinct angles.
If it’s clear who’s responsible for paying the serving person, I’m OK with it. When it’s all just implied costume, there’s too much room for scamming, intimidation, and exercise of monetary power.
Please explain to me what you mean by this and who exactly exerts this ‘pressure’?
And how is this done exactly? How does ending tipping lead to a decreased supply of ‘cheal labour’. Perhaps it’s due to people who were already on the margins of society going down to $2.13/hour (the US minimum wage for any server) and losing their house then dropping out of the labor pool altogether. That would certainly reduce the supply of ‘cheap labour’ eh? Fucking idiot
Please explain. What are the material realities of this ‘uncomfy’ transition phase
And why is that exactly? Because folks are paid a living wage to begin with?
Listen, if you’re going to flippantly say we need to end tipping you really need to fucking face up to what that actually means and not just ‘hand waive’ peoples lives away as mere market externalities
When all tipping is cut, any and all jobs that pay above $2.13 become immediately better option for all previous tip workers.
Without tipping, it is illegal to employ workers below minimum wage. The problem is that the law allows it, and everyone complies.
What if one of the interested parties organised to cut short that supply of money? Any attempt to point blame at customers is just capitalists avoiding their responsibility, as usual.
Customers and employees are not enemies. With tipping, you empower rich customers, and cut access to less wealthy people to a pleasing experience with their friends and family.
Can we really predict all details of the future?
The immediate effect should be that a huge amount of people would have to look for new jobs, if restaurant bourgeoisie won’t raise wages.
Restaurant bourgeoisie is also likely to increase prices in their establishments.
Yes. Barely, but yet.
I’m not hand waving anything. If the US had a strong proletariat government, this could be supported by state incentives. It wouldn’t even be a issue in the first place.
Without that state incentive, how could things start moving? I’d go for seeding class consciousness between tip workers and customers. Most customers are also working class.