Objectively, and immediately, what oct7 achieved? An incursion into occupied territory and a number of hostages captured. Did I miss anything?
Assuming I didn’t miss anything immense, In the grand scheme of matters, by itself, it doesn’t hurt Israel that much.
Great operational success, but if Israel did absolutely nothing, it would have faded from the international news cycle in 2 weeks. Some pressure would have boiled internally, and Netanyahu would have been removed from power and prosecuted for corruption, finally. But, again, by itself, nothing would have changed in material conditions for the Palestinian cause.
What do you think I’m missing, here?
The unfolding desperation of fascist elites in Israel caused an international backlash of huge proportions. Which was apparently the actual goal of hamas. Also with great success. My point is that there was a risk that that actual goal didn’t obtain success. The conditions were right, and success unfolded. Good.
With this case, I think it’s too early to evaluate the unfolding impact of this act on internal public opinion of US population.
Operationally, it was successful. Guy went there, did his thing, hurt no civilians, got media coverage, is not suffering anymore. Without any unfolding from external actors, it’s likely to go nowhere. Are the conditions right to have this go somewhere? It’s a long shot, but let’s hope so.
They killed soldiers including high ranking officers, they destroyed military equipment and military infrastructure, they did MATERIAL DAMAGE to their military capabilities. The sum of material victories is what wins wars, not fucking vibes on media, you understand this right? JFC it’s not that hard. Guy killing himself does NOTHING to Israel military capabilities, NOTHING.
Hey listen comrade, when thousands of brown men die for Palestine they did nothing, But this one white guy setting himself on fire will bring down the empire trust me bro.
I forgot about the high ranking officers, good point.
Still, by itself, it didn’t change the policial landscape! By itself, it’s barely a victory. Some destruction and violence. Some humiliation. Some setbacks, but Israel and its allies could easily recover from it. To call it a material victory, by itself? It’s a stretch.
It was a very successful, heroic, hail mary, though. For the mistakes it caused the zionists to commit, and the support it gathered from the international community, it strengthens the Palestinian cause.
By themselves, Palestinians can’t achieve a military victory against Israel and its allies. They barely had (and still barely have) support of neighboring Arab countries. Iran isn’t an Arab country. Unfortunately media vibes was kind of a last hope, in this case. That’s where the material victory was.
Let’s hope Mr burning man sparks something bigger than himself.
I wish I could make the point shorter. Thanks for the conversation, comrade.
Still, by itself, it didn’t change the political landscape!
What? You can’t just look at the operation by itself, you also must consider what led to that point and what happens after. You pointed out the impact Oct 7 had yourself.
These events do not happen in a vacuum and should not be considered so.
I agree! My point is: despite the low effectiveness of similar actions (self immolation as a form of protest) in the past, oct7 makes me hopeful that this self immolation case could spark some change, since it’s now reasonable to think that conditions may allow for larger implications in the core of imperialism.
I got the point you made here from your other comments and agree, but I guess what I’m missing is what is the point of arguing about the events individually accomplished?
Sure, they appear to us as discrete events, but even this event is tied to the events of Oct 7. It seems pointless to argue that any of these individual events has had relatively little impact on the status quo when they are all connected and the sum total of their impact will be what influences further events.
So what’s the point of arguing them individually aside from just finding something to argue about?
Objectively, and immediately, what oct7 achieved? An incursion into occupied territory and a number of hostages captured. Did I miss anything?
Assuming I didn’t miss anything immense, In the grand scheme of matters, by itself, it doesn’t hurt Israel that much.
Great operational success, but if Israel did absolutely nothing, it would have faded from the international news cycle in 2 weeks. Some pressure would have boiled internally, and Netanyahu would have been removed from power and prosecuted for corruption, finally. But, again, by itself, nothing would have changed in material conditions for the Palestinian cause.
What do you think I’m missing, here?
The unfolding desperation of fascist elites in Israel caused an international backlash of huge proportions. Which was apparently the actual goal of hamas. Also with great success. My point is that there was a risk that that actual goal didn’t obtain success. The conditions were right, and success unfolded. Good.
With this case, I think it’s too early to evaluate the unfolding impact of this act on internal public opinion of US population.
Operationally, it was successful. Guy went there, did his thing, hurt no civilians, got media coverage, is not suffering anymore. Without any unfolding from external actors, it’s likely to go nowhere. Are the conditions right to have this go somewhere? It’s a long shot, but let’s hope so.
They killed soldiers including high ranking officers, they destroyed military equipment and military infrastructure, they did MATERIAL DAMAGE to their military capabilities. The sum of material victories is what wins wars, not fucking vibes on media, you understand this right? JFC it’s not that hard. Guy killing himself does NOTHING to Israel military capabilities, NOTHING.
Hey listen comrade, when thousands of brown men die for Palestine they did nothing, But this one white guy setting himself on fire will bring down the empire trust me bro.
White saviour complex at its best.
I forgot about the high ranking officers, good point.
Still, by itself, it didn’t change the policial landscape! By itself, it’s barely a victory. Some destruction and violence. Some humiliation. Some setbacks, but Israel and its allies could easily recover from it. To call it a material victory, by itself? It’s a stretch.
It was a very successful, heroic, hail mary, though. For the mistakes it caused the zionists to commit, and the support it gathered from the international community, it strengthens the Palestinian cause.
By themselves, Palestinians can’t achieve a military victory against Israel and its allies. They barely had (and still barely have) support of neighboring Arab countries. Iran isn’t an Arab country. Unfortunately media vibes was kind of a last hope, in this case. That’s where the material victory was.
Let’s hope Mr burning man sparks something bigger than himself.
I wish I could make the point shorter. Thanks for the conversation, comrade.
What? You can’t just look at the operation by itself, you also must consider what led to that point and what happens after. You pointed out the impact Oct 7 had yourself.
These events do not happen in a vacuum and should not be considered so.
We’re going full circle here.
I agree! My point is: despite the low effectiveness of similar actions (self immolation as a form of protest) in the past, oct7 makes me hopeful that this self immolation case could spark some change, since it’s now reasonable to think that conditions may allow for larger implications in the core of imperialism.
I got the point you made here from your other comments and agree, but I guess what I’m missing is what is the point of arguing about the events individually accomplished?
Sure, they appear to us as discrete events, but even this event is tied to the events of Oct 7. It seems pointless to argue that any of these individual events has had relatively little impact on the status quo when they are all connected and the sum total of their impact will be what influences further events.
So what’s the point of arguing them individually aside from just finding something to argue about?
It was a response to comrade arguing that this kind of protest is nonsense, and that some sabotaging should have been done.
It reminded me that at first sight, for me, the hamas attack also looked like a nonsense suicidal attack, but later we could make some sense of it.
I was trying to sustain that because oct7 wasn’t nonsense, maybe this case wasn’t either.
But I can agree some sabotaging would have been welcome. :)