Gonna burn some of my Lemmygrad goodwill with this, but:
First, going to get this straight: I do not support what the US did in Vietnam or really everywhere. I firmly believe those who commit war crimes should be held responsible. That said…
There are a lot of comments here which show a lack of understanding about how the military recruitment and drafting process works. They lack any sense of nuance, and like all working class issues, there is nuance to the actual issues at hand.
First, many of the people in that war were not there by choice, but because they had families to take care of, something impossible to do as a prison slave, they didn’t have much choice. Minorities and the poor were particularly at risk as they couldn’t afford to flee or seek legal counsel or pay bribes.
Second, among those that joined by choice, they were mostly the very poor. Just like military recruitment today, joining the military was seen as the only viable way out of poverty for many people. There are countless communities with no unionized industrial work or benign bureaucratic government work (like being a forester or environmental inspection agent or whatever) or whatever. There are many communities still with a single local gas station as the sole option for employment. So for many, they don’t know what other options exist or can’t even access them.
For those two reasons above, the military has a significant proportion of minorities in their ranks, today and during Vietnam and throughout modern history.
Also, military personnel who disobey commands to commit war crimes don’t have a real way of defending themselves when they are tried and likely executed or put in prison for a life sentence. Again, hard to support a family if you are an unpaid prison slave or executed.
Now, as some of you pointed out, this is exactly why a lot of veterans, especially Vietnam veterans, went on to become staunch anti-war advocates and members/allies of the anti-war movements. Many had firsthand knowledge and experience with the shit Amerikkkan commanders forced them to do and knew what Amerikkkan foreign policy was at its heart, from personal experience.
Of course, I recognize full well that there are genuine fascist POS fuckwads who did and do join out of bloodlust for some minority or other. I recognize those are hopeless cases and they need to be treated as war criminals. However, this issue, like any working class issue, should be looked at with nuance and a real material analysis.
Want to eliminate voluntary entry into the military to escape poverty? Organize marginalized and impoverished communities and help people to find meaningful employment and education opportunities so that they have better choices than risking their life for some rich fuckface who couldn’t give a third of a shit about them. Advocate to keep recruiters out of schools; they prey on the young, naive, and ignorant.
Engage in community organizing to increase resiliency so if a draft or conscription is enacted, people have a better foundation from which to resist. During such events, provide hiding places for those fleeing a draft or some other material support if possible.
Want to reduce lust for minority blood overseas (and domestically)? Advocate and fight for the recognition of minorities as actual human beings, put faces to numbers, and teach working class people that they have more in common with the working class people overseas the State Department wants to bomb than they do with the owning class who direct it. Yeah some people can’t be reached but you might be able to stop it at that generation. My parents were raging racists who used the n-word freely around the house but I was still able to reached early enough that I am fairly certain I turned out okay. Shit even hardcore skinheads can be rehabilitated sometimes.
So tldr; stop just going “hehe have a happy PTSD and merry homelessness, enjoy your drug addiction” (which btw is a pretty un-communist thing to wish homelessness, addiction, and trauma on someone when… isn’t that what we are supposed to be fighting against?) and look at the material conditions which lead to these problems and address those. Create a system which better serves the working class than what the government and owning class shitfucks tries to say is the best we can get. Catch them where the existing system fails them.
Being poor or uneducated is not an excuse for imperialism. The anti-imperialist veterans of US wars on other countries don’t use that as an excuse either.
I never said it was an excuse. The first thing I said was that it isn’t an excuse, here:
First, going to get this straight: I do not support what the US did in Vietnam or really everywhere. I firmly believe those who commit war crimes should be held responsible.
I was saying that too many of the comments showed a lack of understanding about how military recruitment works, the motivations for joining (if willing), the motivations for complying with draft/conscription, etc etc repeat what I already said.
My intention was to bring to light some of the nuance of the situation that was barely touched upon, if at all, since otherwise it would’ve been an echo-chamber of people praising PTSD.
The first thing I said was that it isn’t an excuse, here
And then your next few paragraphs go on to sympathize with these “poor imperialists who had no choice.”
The entire US presence in Vietnam was a war crime, and no imperialist footsoldier is absolved of that.
My intention was to bring to light some of the nuance of the situation that was barely touched upon, if at all, since otherwise it would’ve been an echo-chamber of people praising PTSD.
This is what I can’t stand about all of these “nuance”-posts, that their compassion extends not to the victims of US imperialism, but the perpertrators of it. Again, being poor or being uneducated is not an excuse to go kill people and destroy families in other countries.
You see american choppers in the bright blue sky, hundreds and hundreds of screaming american soldiers drop from it, you look across the field and see the tanks rolling in. You hear a loud explosion and realise that the shrine you have protected for thousands of years with tooth and nail is destroyed by the empire, you come to the realisation that this is very probably the end of your people who’ve struggled to survive all these centuries.You realise that very soon there is going to be a river of blood of your people here; white phosphorus and depleted uranium will be shot very soon, deforming babies for decades to come, and millions of your people are gonna be killed. Your millennia old language and religion will be wiped out, you’re very likely the last of your kind.
Suddenly, an American soldier kicks you down, puts his foot on your neck and aims his standard ar-15 on the side of your head all while screaming; you realise you’re gonna die, and you won’t have to see the destruction of your community that you fostered so carefully all these centuries for.
Just before he pulls the trigger, you think to yourself, “To be fair to him, he probably had a low GPA in highschool and didnt have a health-care, those are notoriously hard to get in America”.
After thinking about your post, I see where I am wrong.
Joining out of some form of necessity is one thing, but to have fallen so far as to perform or knowingly enable the actions you’ve described is unforgivable even if your own freedom from prison or family economy is at stake. It was tone deaf of me to even remotely equate those things and my original post was poorly thought out.
The only point I made originally I will defend is this: We should not be wishing mental illness, homelessness/poverty, or drug addiction on anyone. I refuse to believe this is what Communist justice looks like.
No probs comrade, I also agree that we should not be wishing additional suffering on these people, and should provide all the social services, both mental and economic, necessary for them to recuperate and re-integrate into society.
Just before he pulls the trigger, you think to yourself, “To be fair to him, he probably had a low GPA in highschool and didnt have a health-care, those are notoriously hard to get in America”.
Gonna burn some of my Lemmygrad goodwill with this, but:
First, going to get this straight: I do not support what the US did in Vietnam or really everywhere. I firmly believe those who commit war crimes should be held responsible. That said…
There are a lot of comments here which show a lack of understanding about how the military recruitment and drafting process works. They lack any sense of nuance, and like all working class issues, there is nuance to the actual issues at hand.
First, many of the people in that war were not there by choice, but because they had families to take care of, something impossible to do as a prison slave, they didn’t have much choice. Minorities and the poor were particularly at risk as they couldn’t afford to flee or seek legal counsel or pay bribes.
Second, among those that joined by choice, they were mostly the very poor. Just like military recruitment today, joining the military was seen as the only viable way out of poverty for many people. There are countless communities with no unionized industrial work or benign bureaucratic government work (like being a forester or environmental inspection agent or whatever) or whatever. There are many communities still with a single local gas station as the sole option for employment. So for many, they don’t know what other options exist or can’t even access them.
For those two reasons above, the military has a significant proportion of minorities in their ranks, today and during Vietnam and throughout modern history.
Also, military personnel who disobey commands to commit war crimes don’t have a real way of defending themselves when they are tried and likely executed or put in prison for a life sentence. Again, hard to support a family if you are an unpaid prison slave or executed.
Now, as some of you pointed out, this is exactly why a lot of veterans, especially Vietnam veterans, went on to become staunch anti-war advocates and members/allies of the anti-war movements. Many had firsthand knowledge and experience with the shit Amerikkkan commanders forced them to do and knew what Amerikkkan foreign policy was at its heart, from personal experience.
Of course, I recognize full well that there are genuine fascist POS fuckwads who did and do join out of bloodlust for some minority or other. I recognize those are hopeless cases and they need to be treated as war criminals. However, this issue, like any working class issue, should be looked at with nuance and a real material analysis.
Want to eliminate voluntary entry into the military to escape poverty? Organize marginalized and impoverished communities and help people to find meaningful employment and education opportunities so that they have better choices than risking their life for some rich fuckface who couldn’t give a third of a shit about them. Advocate to keep recruiters out of schools; they prey on the young, naive, and ignorant.
Engage in community organizing to increase resiliency so if a draft or conscription is enacted, people have a better foundation from which to resist. During such events, provide hiding places for those fleeing a draft or some other material support if possible.
Want to reduce lust for minority blood overseas (and domestically)? Advocate and fight for the recognition of minorities as actual human beings, put faces to numbers, and teach working class people that they have more in common with the working class people overseas the State Department wants to bomb than they do with the owning class who direct it. Yeah some people can’t be reached but you might be able to stop it at that generation. My parents were raging racists who used the n-word freely around the house but I was still able to reached early enough that I am fairly certain I turned out okay. Shit even hardcore skinheads can be rehabilitated sometimes.
So tldr; stop just going “hehe have a happy PTSD and merry homelessness, enjoy your drug addiction” (which btw is a pretty un-communist thing to wish homelessness, addiction, and trauma on someone when… isn’t that what we are supposed to be fighting against?) and look at the material conditions which lead to these problems and address those. Create a system which better serves the working class than what the government and owning class shitfucks tries to say is the best we can get. Catch them where the existing system fails them.
Being poor or uneducated is not an excuse for imperialism. The anti-imperialist veterans of US wars on other countries don’t use that as an excuse either.
I never said it was an excuse. The first thing I said was that it isn’t an excuse, here:
I was saying that too many of the comments showed a lack of understanding about how military recruitment works, the motivations for joining (if willing), the motivations for complying with draft/conscription, etc etc repeat what I already said.
My intention was to bring to light some of the nuance of the situation that was barely touched upon, if at all, since otherwise it would’ve been an echo-chamber of people praising PTSD.
And then your next few paragraphs go on to sympathize with these “poor imperialists who had no choice.”
The entire US presence in Vietnam was a war crime, and no imperialist footsoldier is absolved of that.
This is what I can’t stand about all of these “nuance”-posts, that their compassion extends not to the victims of US imperialism, but the perpertrators of it. Again, being poor or being uneducated is not an excuse to go kill people and destroy families in other countries.
You see american choppers in the bright blue sky, hundreds and hundreds of screaming american soldiers drop from it, you look across the field and see the tanks rolling in. You hear a loud explosion and realise that the shrine you have protected for thousands of years with tooth and nail is destroyed by the empire, you come to the realisation that this is very probably the end of your people who’ve struggled to survive all these centuries.You realise that very soon there is going to be a river of blood of your people here; white phosphorus and depleted uranium will be shot very soon, deforming babies for decades to come, and millions of your people are gonna be killed. Your millennia old language and religion will be wiped out, you’re very likely the last of your kind.
Suddenly, an American soldier kicks you down, puts his foot on your neck and aims his standard ar-15 on the side of your head all while screaming; you realise you’re gonna die, and you won’t have to see the destruction of your community that you fostered so carefully all these centuries for.
Just before he pulls the trigger, you think to yourself, “To be fair to him, he probably had a low GPA in highschool and didnt have a health-care, those are notoriously hard to get in America”.
After thinking about your post, I see where I am wrong.
Joining out of some form of necessity is one thing, but to have fallen so far as to perform or knowingly enable the actions you’ve described is unforgivable even if your own freedom from prison or family economy is at stake. It was tone deaf of me to even remotely equate those things and my original post was poorly thought out.
The only point I made originally I will defend is this: We should not be wishing mental illness, homelessness/poverty, or drug addiction on anyone. I refuse to believe this is what Communist justice looks like.
No probs comrade, I also agree that we should not be wishing additional suffering on these people, and should provide all the social services, both mental and economic, necessary for them to recuperate and re-integrate into society.
LMAO this is some legendary stuff ;D
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I’ll be generous and give a pass to every soldier that fragged their commanding officers.
It’s good that you are willing to offer other views on the topic, as long as we all can respectfully discuss it of course.