giving a shit about “upvotes” seems like such a reddit thing to do.
I’m here for replies and conversation and yes…sometimes getting into arguments with dickheads (and…I’ll be honest…sometimes being said dickhead when I’m having a bad day)
I don’t actually care how many internet strangers are giving me made up internet points or not. It’s always just seemed to me to be vacuous and silly as something to “chase”
Upvotes are a means to an end for site visibility though, which is required to attain conversation in most cases.
I get that. I just mean that I don’t spend time trying to tailor an answer to try to get the most number of upvotes. I’ll say what i want to say, and if people want to upvote me for it or downvote me for it makes no difference whatsoever.
its how you know if ppl understood your point
Not always!
Best thing about this place is you can remove karma entirely from your user experience. I don’t see any count at all
reddit now will monitor upvotes in thier filters, too much too fast would result in a probably shadowban/permaban, because it assumes you are botting.
I much prefer the technical architecture of Lemmy over PieFed. I understand the qualms with the core developers, but it feels dirty to move from Rust to Python.
Thats fair, but I don’t make exceptions for that alone. We’re talking about advocates of widespread war and dictatorships.
I like being on lemmy and I’ve managed to find piefed instances I have subscribed to so they’re part of my feed, but can anyone tell me if it’s possible to view piefed instances in my “all” view that I’m not subscribed to? I want to be seeing eveeeerything! Thank you!
It is possible. Piefed and Lemmy federate together.
I feel like they should appear automatically in that case, but they’re not.
Piefed communities are less active, and less likely to trend generally.
Ah OK, maybe that’s it - thank you!
Also, “all” is not all. It’s only the communities that others on your instance have subscribed to.
I realised actually that when I search through my federated instances list, not a single piefed instance appears… :/
need to make sure you have selected All when searching. I find piefed instances occasionally, like the TV & movies ones are pretty active I think.
Is there an iOS app for PieFed?
I suggest Thunder or Voyager on Android, and I know they both have an iOS version. Here is more info about PieFed apps: https://piefed.social/community/fediverse/wiki/piefed-app
Awesome, thanks
I think from the start, the very beginning, Lemmy had bots doing 20 to 40 upvotes on brand new posts spouting Russian Propoganda.
Its really trivial to set up in decentralized networks like this.
Lemmy is fine though what are you on about
Well, it works. But Piefed is developing more features quicker atm.
So we should all just jump? Meh. Lemmy 1.0 is releasing soon which should help quite a bit.
Not necessarely that’s the beauty of the fediverse. You can enjoy PieFed growth and all it’s content but stick on Lemmy if you don’t feel like moving.
AFAIK the two can federate with eachother so I’m glad we have both.
Thesis: Lemmy is better!
Antithesis: Piefed is better!
Synthesis: removed, they’re federated??
FUCK YOU HEGEL STOP FOLLOWING ME
No we are a long way off from a 1.0 release yet.
I vote use both
Piefed uses Python which is faster for development but the language is slower. Lemmy is built on Rust. I appreciate some features Piefed has but I do wonder about its scalability.
but the language is slower
it really depends what’s the metric. Most web server stuff is IO-bound not compute-bound so Python can actually be faster than Rust.
I thought Rust was faster for basically every metric?
The entire advantage of Python is supposed to be ease of development, in exchange for slower code execution. It is especially bad in terms of multiprocessing, which Rust is great at.
As I severely lack expertise on back-end development I asked for clarification to the forbidden oracle (AI) but it also told me that Rust is faster. I am not sure whether you feel like debunking an AI comment but if this is false I would love to hear why because from my current understanding Rust is always faster (for back-end development).
AI response
That statement is technically false, but it contains a grain of practical truth that often confuses people.
Here is the breakdown of why that statement is misleading and where the misunderstanding comes from.
The Verdict: False
Rust is almost invariably faster than Python, even in IO-bound tasks.
If you have a web server handling 10,000 concurrent connections that are all waiting on a database (pure IO-bound), the Rust server will use significantly less RAM and CPU to manage those “waiting” connections than the Python server.
Why the statement is wrong (The Technical Reality)
The argument assumes that “IO-bound” means the CPU does zero work. That isn’t true. Even in an IO-heavy application, the application server must do the following:
-
Event Loop Management
The server has to track which connections are waiting and which are ready to resume.- Rust’s async runtimes (like Tokio) are incredibly optimized and have near-zero runtime overhead.
- Python’s
asyncioloop has significant overhead because it is still running interpreted Python code to manage the tasks.
-
Serialization/Deserialization
When the database replies, the server receives raw bytes. It must turn those bytes into objects (JSON parsing, ORM model instantiation). This is CPU-bound work.- Rust does this near-instantly.
- Python is notoriously slow at object instantiation.
-
The GIL (Global Interpreter Lock)
Even if your code is async, Python can only execute one bytecode instruction at a time per process.- If 100 requests come back from the DB at the exact same millisecond, Python has to process them one by one.
- Rust can process them in parallel across all CPU cores.
Where the statement is “Practically” True (The Grain of Truth)
The person making that statement is likely conflating “faster” with “indistinguishable to a human.”
If a database query takes 100ms:
- Rust overhead: 0.1ms → total response ≈ 100.1ms
- Python overhead: 5.0ms → total response ≈ 105.0ms
To the human user, 100.1ms and 105ms feel exactly the same.
In this specific context, you could argue that Python is “just as fast” as Rust because the bottleneck is the database, not the language. But it is incorrect to say Python is faster.
The “Fediverse” Exception (Why it matters for PieFed)
The statement “web servers are IO-bound” is often true for something like a simple blog.
It is less true for the Fediverse.ActivityPub (the protocol PieFed and Lemmy use) involves two things that are heavily CPU-bound, not IO-bound:
-
JSON Parsing
Fediverse servers throw massive JSON blobs at each other constantly.- Python is slow at parsing JSON compared to Rust.
-
Cryptography (RSA Signatures)
Every time a server sends a message to another server, it must cryptographically sign it (HTTP Signatures). Every time it receives a message, it must verify the signature.- Rust handles crypto operations natively and extremely fast.
- Python relies on C-extensions (like
cryptography), which are fast, but the overhead of calling back and forth between Python and C for every single request adds up.
Conclusion
The statement is false.
- Rust is faster at raw execution.
- Rust is faster at handling high concurrency (even IO-bound).
- Python is only “faster” in one metric: development velocity – you can write the code faster in Python, but the code itself will not run faster than Rust.
No, python can be incredibly fast for IO when scaled properly.
You generally don’t run a single process or even program for serving websites. There are task queues, callbacks, microservices etc so the bottleneck is almost never the programming language itself but the tooling and Python’s tooling for web is still miles ahead. Thats why big project ship more Django than Rust and all AI training is running on Python not Rust etc.
Don’t get me wrong Rust is a brilliant language but Python can often be better.
Finally you can outsource high performance tasks to Rust or C from within Python rather easily these days.
Python is an interpreted language, which is fundamentally always slower than a compiled language like Rust. However the main performance bottleneck are actually sql queries, and I believe we make a lot more effort to optimize them compared to Piefed.
That makes sense to me logically. Are there advanced caching techniques being deployed? I’m really curious about this.
I thought the biggest problem for Python would be the GIL as it cannot share memory between processes and therefore needs to do use a database or other tool to share between them. Though in hindsight most web related services probably use databases to read and write data and this do not work out of shared process memory.
Threading from a single process is just a bad scaling strategy anyway so GIL is rarely an issue so you’re right most big web stuff does indeed use a database/queue/cache layer for orchestrating multiple processes.
-
Lemmy still has a bigger user base doesn’t it?
Well yes, but you can interact with lemmy on piefed.
If it’s true It’s the main reason to not even think to use piefed.
Not if you want to make use of some of Piefeds tools.
I have to check if Voyager iOS supports it
It does
I mean, I am reading this on PieFed and I do see your comment just fine. As you see mine.
Why is that a reason not to use PieFed? You can obviously just block all instances that run on Lemmy if you somehow don’t like their users!
Ok sorry, I just misunderstood. I thought you couldn’t read lemmy from piefed at all.
The whole point is to not have a centralized system. Development is also part of that, so providing multiple front ends for the same community also works towards that goal.
Doesn’t matter to me, I’m still using the old reddit theme on .world and that’s what I want to keep using.
Piefed or Lemmy, it’s the same content, so you’re arguing about either UI or philosophical differences (Lemmy devs are tankies or whatever).
I’d consider Piefed if they had an old reddit UI available, but that’s never gonna happen and I absolutely cannot stand either Lemmy’s or Piefed’s UI.
Oh, I had made one for quokk.au a few months ago. It got lost during an update as I didn’t bother to save it, I can probably whip another one up this weekend if I remember.
Edit: This was a wip screenshot I took. It was never 100% the same, but yeah.
Cool, well let me know if you do, I’ll join up. I’m sure if you do there would be several dozen people who would be thrilled! 😂
It looks great to be honest
Well no, it’s not just UI. Piefed has more features than Lemmy right now.
Fair enough if you’re tethered to lemmy due to an old-reddit style UI, but it’s not purely rooted in UI and ideology.
Yeah, sorry you’re right, like being able to get feeds for small communities, and that sort of thing. But all the actual content is the same, is what I meant. Piefed doesn’t provide any content that you can’t get on Lemmy, just a different way to view it (UI) and organize it (features).
It does have polls. Those are not visible if you use Lemmy, right?
It will also add support for viewing microblogging posts (a.k.a. Mastodon) sometime in the next year. Obviously, that’s still content you can see all of if you use both Mastodon and Lemmy, because Mastodon supports polls as well.But PieFed is the only one that shows both everything Lemmy shows plus the polls.
I’d consider Piefed if they had an old reddit UI available, but that’s never gonna happen
Why would that never happen?
Well, for one, the old Reddit interface’s appeal is fairly limited in general. Most people use apps anymore, I feel like in general desktop users are not catered to even in default interfaces. Of people who do use the desktop, more of them are likely to be new(er) Reddit users who probably find the Lemmy/Piefed default UI to be superior to Reddit - but the pool of people who prefer old Reddit is dwindling, which doesn’t usually lead to continuing support of things.
As it stands, few Lemmy instances have it and in any case it feels pretty fragile. It has broken a couple times and I think been fixed, but this has led instances to drop it altogether (dbzer0 used to have it, for example, but the lead said it was too much of a hassle and its devs weren’t responding to his questions).
I’m fairly worried that 1.0 is gonna break it, tbh. It never gets any updates that I have noticed, and its functionality is a bit all over the place.
And my guy has almost 25 points
Chill its a meme
Okay but it is developed by authoritarian communists. I mean it doesn’t have to annoy you, but it definitely annoys me.
I don’t like the devs but at the same time it’s not like they wield much power over users outside of the flagship instance, lemmy.ml. That’s the nice thing about decentralized FOSS social media. Can even make a fork if they ever did something unpopular.
But they administrate their flag ship instance, which for a long time was the first instance new users registrated on, only to then see on what power trips the Admins are on. The missing separation of development of administration is literally the only critic point I have. If course, Lemmy is decentralized and that is a great thing. Over time, lemmy.ml already lost relevance and it will lose more as lemmy grows. But people tend to think “oh, so this is the official instance I better join there”, just to then face opinions promoting North Korea or denying Russia’s guilt in the invasion of Ukraine and so on. Check out the media bias in Lemmy.ml’s news communities, it is insane.
Check !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works for many examples.
Lemmy is fine though
except crazy authoritarian tankie leadership? It’s just a matter of time until one of them goes wacky (again) and brings down the entire brand.
It’s good to diversify here.
that is just one instance, in particular lemmy.ml. pretty much everywhere else they make fun of them.
I don’t know which part of Lemmy u talking about. What I get to see is posts and comments ridiculizing or even hating russians (as people) get hundreds of likes.
Good, that’s like being upset that nazi Germans are being hated on the telegraph. No shit Sherlock
Apparently you confused russians for israelis?
You didn’t get the memo? It’s fine to be the worst kind of bigot against hundreds of millions of civilian Russians, because of what their government does. They’re not like the population in western countries who have to be separated from the atrocities our governments have visited on the rest of the world for centuries. We are pure individuals, they are collectively responsible. So Americans can condemn Russian civilians as monsters, while sharing none of the blame for their own democratically elected government committing daily war crimes and atrocities.
Who cares if the devs are communists, worst comes to worst you can always fork it while you look for an alternative. Never has come to that though, and it doesn’t look like it will.
Forking rarely succeeds for big projects. Good luck finding new maintainer to spearhead entire code base and rebrand. Much easier to start with a more trustworthy base.
I don’t care that they are communists, I care about how they are assholes. I don’t owe assholes anything, certainly not loyalty. They are a toxic influence on the fediverse and should be marginalized. Maybe there was an argument that people should just let them cook when there was not alternative, but that is no longer the case.
Communists isn’t the problem.
Transphobic, genocide deniers are.
That’s just the tankie triad. there are lemmy instances that aren’t run by nutters, feddit.uk for example
It’s just a matter of time until one of them goes wacky (again)
What happened?
Upvotes mean jack, where’s the community engagement
HERE’S YOUR COMMUNITY YOU FECKIN EEDJIT
floss your limey
teeth with my asshairTo the lovely tory rat that reported my comment as “bigotry”, sorry, White Anglo-Saxon Protestants don’t get to play that card. Go boil your babby yed along yer mum’s yams.
Can’t imagine why people don’t want to hang around y’all
The english are worth a good jab of tough love to the ribs, “Y’all” aint with jack
I hated when my posts got popular on reddit. 10k-1m+ people suddenly being aware of my existence, trawling my profile, filling up my inbox with replies and PMs- just a miserable experience that made the website overwhelming for days. Hexbear topping out at like 120 upvotes is the sweet spot for not being overwhelmed but still getting quality engagement in the comments. At most I think a post could get 1000~ without becoming nonsensical, which I think might have been where /r/chapotraphouse topped out.
Whenever the subreddits I ran surpassed 50k subscribers, the algorithmic incentives immediately undermined the things which made that community good. The volume of posts is so high that any individual one is lost unless they can grab attention quick. That’s where the “epic narwhal bacon” shit comes from. In the time it takes to read a multi-paragraph comment, users can upvote a dozen meme ones. Newcomers only see the memes and know that’s how they fit in, so the whole thing snowballs into a parody of whatever the community was originally about. Quick growth comes at the expense of the forum’s ideological coherency and all the internal struggle sessions that form it.
What’s the difference? Can I see piefed communities through Lemmy? Or do I need a different account and/or app?
Piefed isn’t run by cringe tankies who have diminished the struggle of an actual revolutionary by soiling their namesake with the view from an air conditioned computer chair.
Also, piefed isn’t run by cringe tankies who call trans people bourgeoisie western pink washing, and then goes around begging for donations as if we owe them anything besides scorn.
Removed by mod
I think the registration process and “official” app made piefed a more welcoming enrollment for people who are just casual users. Like, I had to explain a lot of shit to get my GF signed up for Lemmy. My grandma could sign up for piefed without much guidance.
In terms of what content you can see, the difference between Lemmy and PieFed is effectively the same as the difference between two Lemmy instances. As long as the instances federate with one another, it does not matter which platform you use. You can definitely interact with PieFed from Lemmy just fine. In fact, you are doing so right now! My account is on a PieFed Instance.
This meme is more making a joke about how relatively young PieFed is. Years back, a post to any community on the fediverse that got 20 upvotes was huge. But today, a post with 20 votes is basically nothing (depending in the size of the community). By the time PieFed came about, the fediverse was populated enough that a post with only 20 votes was nothing like a post with 20 votes in the olden days of Lemmy.
You can see lemmy communities on Piefed.
But you will need to make a new account on a piefed instance, same as you would moving to any other lemmy instance.
I thought we could easily migrate accounts between Fediverse instances and that that was a core feature of ActivityPub for preventing a single instance from dominating and effectively centralizing the Fediverse?
Does piefed not support account migration?
You can import your subscriptions, and communities can be migrated over - but I am unaware of an account migration function.
Hmm, only Mastodon is mentioned for this feature in the ActivutyPub spec… I’m not sure if it’s the only service that has implemented this fully or if it’s just the example used.
https://swicg.github.io/activitypub-data-portability/#move-action
That’s ashame, because account mobility is the most important tool for healthy decentralization. The reason Facebook or Twitter can “get away with” implementing such shitty policies and abusing their users is because the users are locked in, with a high cost to switching platforms.
The cost is highest for accounts like small businesses that live and die by social media marketing, once they have an established presence and successfully built a following on a platform, it is very risky for them to give that up and start over on a new one.
I imagine Rimu would need to work with Lemmy in order to bring in that kind of migration for accounts where the post-history is completely redirected, but I doubt that’s gunna happen.
He addressed it in the interview on !piefed_meta@piefed.social
Long story short: migrating subscriptions and blocks are enough for the Threadiverse as your posts belong more to the communities where you posted than yourself
Yeah, I’d argue community migration is by far a more valuable priority than account migration.
Migrate is a strong word, more like you can copy your settings, it’s certainly not intrinsic to the standard either. Remember, your username includes your instance after all. I am not deeply versed but one of the better platforms was Mastodon and it was still limited to moving your settings and followers to your new account and setting the old one to forward. Posts weren’t reattributed or anything though.
The strength of the fediverse is how the data is duplicated and how it’s the sum of many parts, but maintaining an “identity” on the fediverse is still wobbly, some like that though, it leans into the privacy/anonymity side of things.
for you an average user you’re not going to notice much in difference. you’ll get more features with Piefed but otherwise you can still view and interact with each instance.
From an admin side/someone who runs their own instance Piefed is just so much better. lighter, easier to set up, run, and manage.
No real difference in core features. Its all the extras that make me happy.
I have been really enjoying the scheduled post feature. I can set up my shitposts to be automatically posted at the optimal time of day. For English communities, I find that to be about 9:30 AM USA time.
I do the same with !peertube@lemmy.world so I dont flood the community every day with videos.
Basically there are no differences, sure piefed has extra features but if you’re a mobile user no client acturally supports them. Also piefed is newer, less stable, and gets updated more frequently (so the difference between instances is bigger)
The different features are the differences, and you can use them on the browser if the mobile clients are behind. Piefed is fine enough on it.
Its not that the mobile clients are behind its that piefed has no mobile clients whatsoever, just a bunch of Lemmy clients that also happen to support piefed.
The limit between being a Lemmy or Piefed client gets a bit more blurry over time.
@moseschrute@piefed.social , would you consider Blorp a client for both Lemmy and Piefed, or a Lemmy client that also also supports Piefed?
I would say Blorp is a client that started out as Lemmy, but is slowly becoming a 1st class PieFed client. I’m a bit of a perfectionist, so I’m hesitant to call it a perfect PieFed client until I add support for polls, events, and feeds/topics. I’m working on some of those features right now.
I already have support for post flairs, and I just added support for locking comment threads. Both of those are PieFed specific features.
Since PieFed is in its early stages, I’m able to collaborate on API decisions. As a more mature project, I’ve found Lemmy a bit more rigid with its decision making. But there’s a certain excitement I get working with PieFed. It’s so new and full of possibilities!
TL;DR If you use Blorp with PieFed, you’re gonna have a good time
Thank you very much, Blorp is definitely a great app!
This is the first I’ve heard of piefed, and so I’m just browsing the desktop site. It’s kinda jank, to be honest.
I looked at it when it came out. Seems ok to me, but there wasn’t a reason to migrate from Lemmy.
It has polls, it supports push notifications so phone apps can immediately tell you about notifications, you can write remarks about users that will be shown to you only next to the user’s name, and what I actually find the biggest usability improvement is that I can turn on notifications for any post or any community so that if anyone writes anything to that community, I get a notification. That’s awesome with groups that get like one post every two weeks but where those few posts are all very interesting!
Some people also like that you can group a bunch of communities into one feed that you can view as if they were together just one community. Meaning, if there are copies of the same community on five instances, you can opt to merge their content when viewed from your user account.
it supports push notifications so phone apps can immediately tell you about notifications
Nope, I’m out. Lemmys fine thanks.
Tbf I don’t think you have to have it on.
No worries :)
In what way does it feel jank, in your opinion?
I’ve personally been happy with it, and I would guess the maintainers are used to the way it works and might be blind to things you notice! But, there’s a real good chance that if you can point out specific details that could be improved, they indeed will be improved. At least they’ve done awesome job handling suggestions I’ve made!
I think just general UI stuff across at least the homepage
- Some buttons that wrap touch each other
- There’s a banner at the top (since I don’t have an account) that has weird, off-center margins
- When I first went to the site I guess the Explore dropdown didn’t load so it was an empty dropdown (though it’s now populated so that may have been a one off network request issue)
- If I have scrolled down the page a bit, every time I click an item in the main nav (like Explore) the page scrolls up by about 15 pixels for some reason
- The Piefed logo isn’t horizontally centered with the actual nav items so the text doesn’t line up correctly
This is obviously using Bootstrap to handle the UI, and that’s fine. I’m not knocking that necessarily. But it’s a little jank and rough around the edges. These are things I noticed in, like, 30 seconds.
And this isn’t to say that Lemmy.world is perfect or anything. And I don’t really use the desktop site for Lemmy. I just use Voyager on my pc. But even the Lemmy site feels a little more solid, if that makes sense (even if Lemmy.world is also using Bootstrap).
I was only able to reproduce one of these with some local testing (the not-logged-in banner). What browser are you using? As for the Explore dropdown (and most dropdowns in the web ui), they use htmx to populate, so if there is a network hiccup, then it will just show up empty. Lastly, I believe you on the buttons wrapping weird. I have caught and fixed a lot of those in my time contributing to piefed, so would always appreciate help identifying where it is happening.
A big priority for rimu when making piefed is to keep the request size small to accommodate very poor network connections. From talking with him, he has historically had to deal with extremely tenuous internet access in the past and wants to be able to still function in those environments (a user setting can also enable low bandwidth mode to disable things like images). That is just really hard to do using the javascript frameworks that a lot of modern web interfaces use these days. So, we have compromised and sprinkled in some interactivity where it makes the most sense using tools like htmx or vanilla javascript. However, it can make the site feel a bit like internet 1.0 at times.
With the piefed api maturing, there is now the option to simply use an alternative frontend (photon, blorp, etc.) or a mobile app (voyager, interstellar, etc.) instead. The main area of the site that we have not included in the api is the admin area, so managing things like defederations would still have to be done through the web UI.
Thanks for the feedback!
Incredible optimization! I don’t think Blorp will ever be able to deliver a web experience as low data as the official UI. However, if you download Blorp (or any of the other apps) then you no longer have to send frontend code over the network. The only data that needs to be downloaded at runtime is API requests. Suddenly the network usage looks a lot more similar to the official UI (though I should test to confirm).
Can I also say, as a somewhat normie human, that it’s called PieFed? I might need a little background information on this one.
Though I do participate in a group named Lemmy.
I believe the origin is a portmanteau of python (the language piefed is written in) and fediverse. The pie imagery is more for fun.
Fun fact, the dev server that lives at the bleeding edge of the codebase is called crust.
At least the Codeberg git repository is called pyfedi, which I think could be the original name of this? Py comes from the programming language used, Python. And Fedi is, well, Fedi :)
And then maybe PyFedi became PieFed because Rimu is from New Zealand and those DAMN KIWIS are SERIOUSLY MAD ABOUT PIES! 🤣
It has its rough edges, but I do like it overall.
Does it federate with Lemmy?
Yes.
deleted by creator
Another migration. I know I’m sure I’ll be told I’m a ding dong, but all these migrations are the reason why decentralized social media will never be popular. Some probably think that’s a good thing, but 90% of the posts here are the same person posting hentai.
What do you mean “another migration”? Piefed and Lemmy communities and instances can be viewed from both.
I’ll use the Casual Conversation community as an example. They started out on Lemmy.World. They had 6.7k subscribers. They moved to lemm.ee, which was shut down. Now they are at piefed. One of the biggest communities migrated multiple times and has lost almost 20% of the subscribers.
One could argue that this is the purpose of decentralized social media, but my point is that constant migration and evolution, while not exactly dubious, will keep casual users away.
Most of the initial communities made primarily on lemmy.world benefited from the initial flood of users joining from Reddit after the API fiasco. Most of them didn’t stick around - but their presence on as subscribers on those communities still persists. It’s a false number.
Subscribers aren’t a great metric to determine community viability in many cases.
And the current uptick in piefed is because it’s new tool in the block. It still remains to see if people stick around.
So, yea, we’ll see how that pans out.
Well I’m talking specifically about communities on the fediverse here as they move between instances, not piefeds local activity.
One of the biggest communities migrated multiple times and has lost almost 20% of the subscribers.
Subscribers are a poor metrics. Active users is much more relevant, and !casualconversation@piefed.social is as active as the previous versions used to be
That’s fair.
High-fidelity community migration (no loss of followers) is on my to-do list for the next release. It might get bumped to the release after but it’s on the agenda.
Now we’re talkin!
Yeah, I wish there was a good technical solution for this baked into the Fediverse. PieFed has some of that, you get some features for migrating communities there. But all of this is integral part of this place. We also have like 10 technology communities. It’s not obvious what to subscribe to. Some formed due to growth and changed dynamics. Some because someone was against AI and someone else pro AI, and they split off and made yet another community with the same name. None of that is intuitive to newbies. You can of course subscribe to all of them but then you’ll regularly get the same post 5 times in your timeline because it also leads to cross-posting and all kinds of things… This is by design, though. And it’s difficult to design online platforms to be easy to use, cater to all people, grant freedom to everyone… I think we still got some room for improvement 😉
I have been thinking about this a lot. When you search for “fediverse” you get multiple communities. I think it would have to come from an outside source, like a new site for instance, or maybe an app, but it would be nice if there was a way to just consolidate all communities with a particular name into one super community. I know that’s not how the fediverse works, but imo it should.
Piefed consolidates comments from crossposts : https://piefed.zip/c/space/p/771135/space-station-first-all-docking-ports-fully-occupied-8-spacecraft-on-orbit#post_replies
Once upon a time you needed GNUtella, freeseek, kaazaa, eMule, NZB, DirectConnect, FreeNet, and bittorrent. Give it time, if you can’t tolerate being an early adopter. You will find this pattern throughout life, not just on decentralized networks.
Those were different times.
The average Internet user is a phone user who only knows apps.
I would say centralization might be required to reach Facebook like sizes but I’m not sure that is a valuable goal.
The times change but technologies still go through the same lifecycles. Nothing wrong with waiting for things to mature, though I’d rather accept some rough edges than accept getting sold as a product.
What I meant more is less that the technologies change but that the users have. Users were more tech savvy by nessessity.
There are plenty of people online now who would never have made it before.
Yes? That’s arguably the Internet itself going through the exact same cycle. But it doesn’t change how the adoption cycle works or force software to magically be mature a decade early.
you can just block the whole lemmynsfw instance
I did. I still get weird posts from time to time from different communities.
i don’t think i’ll ever understand how people can get off to drawings…
I have a very specific fantasy that doesn’t happen in real life… yet.
does it involve a dragon fucking a car?
I have two very specific fantasies now.
I will never understand it, as it’s not my thing, but more power to them I guess.
The point of ActivityPub is that you don’t have to migrate your account to be part of any shiny new social media platform. You can just stick to lemmy and interact with piefed communities/posts/comments without even knowing about it, just like this post here (it was posted by a piefed user and you’re viewing it on lemmy).
I understand you don’t have to migrate your account. You do have to migrate the community though. Which caused a 20% decrease in members.
In an ideal world, and I know this is the end-game - Piefed does plan to support total community migration between instances. Ie a piefed.social community could move to piefed.ca and maintain all of its posts, comments and subscribers. Communities would be modular.
Lemmy wouldn’t recognise this though, and I doubt that would ever change.
At some point in the future I will also have time to implement community migration for Lemmy. In theory it’s not so complicated, but there are lots of other things to do.
Same comment, but from your instance : https://lemmy.world/post/39664704/20826464
One was after the other.
What you don’t like my furry feet fotos
pics?I don’t dislike them. I hate them. I HATE YOU
Can’t please everyone! But you’ll really, really please some of them
never did care for piefed, none of the features it’s added so far are particularly appealing to me
Keeping an eye on smaller communities thanks to personal feeds is nice.
the latest feature I’ve found is that when an admin deletes your account on their end it produces a ‘not found’ page, overall the software seems much better at filtering out dissent- ironic considering a primary complaint they have is ‘authoritarian developers’ influencing the software in some nebulous way
I’m quite sure it’s similar on Lemmy: if an admin purges a user, their profile won’t be accessible anymore
the way it works on lemmy there’s still some transparency, for example you can still see that the account existed, and has had posts removed by mod so you can figure out the context lemmy has it’s own issues too, like the fact that you can’t see the removed posts; iirc they’re planning to change that.
in fact on piefed, if you wanted to review the modlog to see who has been getting account deleted, it doesn’t let you see beyond page 1
the next button resets the search
Was that account purged or banned? IIRC there’s a difference, and purged accounts would show ab empty profile without any posts
Good point about the modlog page 2, @rimu@piefed.social or @wjs018@piefed.social can this be fixed quickly? If not I’ll make a Codeberg issue
Every single one of their posts says ‘removed by mod’ with nothing in the comment moderation history. As far as I know if they were just banned with the posts manually removed you would still be able to reveal the comment moderation history.
There are two different actions
- ban from site
- purge a user
The documentation explains the difference
Ban from site Completely bans the account, so it cannot log in or interact at all. There is also an option to remove all existing posts.
Purge user Completely delete the user, including all posts and uploaded media. Use with caution.
https://join-lemmy.org/docs/users/04-moderation.html?highlight=purge#how-to-moderate
I think the Lemmy user you are referring to above got banned, and their posts got removed as the sub-action, but they did not get purge.
Your account got purged on the Piefed instance you linked above.
Now obviously as you can guess it’s difficult to find an example of a purged account on a Lemmy instance as there’s no filter for that kind of actions in the modlog.
I don’t have the patience to go through this whole thread, but as for preserving filters on modlog pagination, I just pushed a fix for it. Currently, it would just work on the main branch and hasn’t been backported to the 1.3 branch.
Great, thank you !
@diva@lemmy.ml FYI
the next button resets the search
For me, when I clicked “next” it instead just changed from local -> to all. This seems more like a bug rather than anything deliberate.
looks like a broken ui, I can manually input the page number to navigate it, but what a pain in the ass to use, wasn’t saying it was deliberate.
The modlog leaves a lot to be desired, and piefed mod actions don’t even appear on lemmy instances right now. Mind you, the way Lemmy handles instance bans is also not great either. I have noted this.
Oof. Lemmy as a decrepit grandma is a bit unkind.
Without their pioneering work in the early quiet days and absorbing the first wave of reddit refugees, PieFed wouldn’t have anything to glom onto and build from so there is a symbiosis going on.
The grandma was an exceptionally agile and good-looking woman in her youth, indeed! She was also pioneering a lot of things the following generations are now enjoying! But she’s nevertheless of the previous generation now.
I looked into making yet another account, this time on piefed, but didn’t like the automatic blocking of a few communities. Yeah, I’m a massive hypocrite because I argued hard for the defederation of maga.place from sh.itjust.works, but since coming to lemmy.today I don’t like the idea of automatic defederation where the users don’t have input.
Are there any piefed instances that don’t block anything? Or, is there a way for me to befriend everyone on my account?
Check instance federation/block of piefed.zip
What if I want to get to know the good people of cum.salon, or yggdrasil…
spoiler
No LGBTQ. Period. No homosexuality. No men who think they’re women or women who think they’re men. No made up genders. That goes for both users and posted content. For the record, traps are gay and will not be tolerated.
I stand 100% corrected.
Thank you.
There’s something so funny to me about just super blatant bigotry. Because this sounds unhinged to anyone with even a shred of decency.
Immediately followed by a rule against ‘miscegenation’. That’s one to add to our list…
Whoa. I had to look it up. I’m guessing these dudes really strongly don’t wanna see a black dude make love to a white woman or visa versa.
Yeah, anyone using it raises enough red flags to make a Chinese military parade blush.
This is also impressive:
In general, if it’s something that would have gotten you in trouble a hundred years ago, you shouldn’t be posting it. If you have to ask, don’t post it.
In year 1925 you could already get into big trouble in some western countries if you talked too positively about Jewish people. Should people not post anything positive about Jewish people on that instance? Or is it okay until year 2032? Also, I’ve understood that in year 1925 you could get into trouble if you talked strongly against vaccinations. Do they forbid anti-vaxxer posts on Yggdrasil?
Maybe I’m being picky but I see no reasons for defederation listed on that page. It’d be helpful information to have
piefed.zip is likely the one that doesn’t block anything if it is modelled after lemmy.zip here.
Disclaimer: I checked into piefed shit again and this unexpectedly turned into a whole thing.
I found this here https://join.piefed.social/features/ :
Default Blocks – Lemmygrad, Hexbear, and Nazi instances are blocked out of the box.
Does that mean they can’t be unblocked? And now I’m seeing:
Authoritarian Inoculation – Feature to reduce the impact of authoritarian propaganda.
That gave me pause, not because I want to promote authoritarian propaganda, but I’m concerned about someone else deciding what’s authoritarian.
And:
Low Reputation Indicator – Identifies consistently downvoted users.
This feels like karma. I’m alright with rule-breaking stuff getting deleted and people getting banned for bad behavior, but I don’t think people should be flagged for consistently going against the popular narrative. If they’re being assholes users can report them.
Does that mean they can’t be unblocked?
They can be unblocked. They’re just blocked by default.
These are all tools that can be modified by server admins.
Fair enough. Thanks for the info!
I found this here https://join.piefed.social/features/ :
Note how that link points to PieFed.social. Yes, those are defederated at the instance level, so a user cannot work around that - Lemmy defederation works the same way. However, PieFed.zip is a separate instance from PieFed.socual, and does not defederate from much at all.
Low Reputation Indicator
I find that feature very helpful. It’s merely a visual indicator placed next to the username, which is very different than the software making decisions for me on what content to show or not, and that indicator helps clue me in that responding to e.g. an argumentative person is unlikely to enhance my day. Also while I don’t recall the details on how it is set, imagine if you will that someone receives 10x more downvotes total than upvotes. Such an account is usually a troll. Most people get downvotes occasionally, but that would not trigger the indicator to be shown (and again, even if it somehow did, it’s just a visual icon, not a block or anything).
Lemmy is FAR more known for authoritative censorship than PieFed. Particularly those instances mentioned like hexbear and the infamous lemmy.ml where you cannot criticize Russia, China, or North Korea without being banned from every community on the entire instance including those you’ve never even heard of.
The link doesn’t point to the instance, that’s the main blog/info site for piefed.
Either way my question about blocking was answered, now I know the block list isn’t baked into piefed itself.
I don’t agree with the low rep feature. There are rules, reporting and blocking available moderate communities. If one user doesn’t want to interact with another for non-rulebreaking reasons, they can block them, tag them, or just not respond. This just opens up new reasons to manipulate votes and downvote unpopular opinions.
I’m on Lemmy.Today, so I disagree that it’s authoritative. This instance doesn’t block/isn’t blocked by any instance, and allows all opinions that aren’t bigoted or insulting. There’s a whole spectrum of vibes across the instances but there’s nothing authoritative about the Lemmy ground rules.
For what it’s worth, fedia.io does not federate with lemmy.today: https://fedia.io/federation
The only way to approach “talking with everyone” on the fediverse is to host your own instance - only even then you’ll probably need to defederate ASAP from any instances that send you illegal material (as in child sexual abuse material).
What!? I’m going to send them a letter.
Yeah, I think OpenStars means the ruleset in lemmy.ml which is the equivalent instance to lemmy as piefed.social is to piefed.
However hypothetically authoritarian piefed.social might become, it doesn’t reflect on the piefed software itself necessarily.
I doubt that a normal user would get themselves flagged with the low rep icon though. Even receiving twice as many, triple as many, quadruple or quintuple as many downvotes as upvotes would not do it. To receive ten times as many downvotes as upvotes is someone who is entirely ignoring the consent of users to have to read their
crapahem “offered opinions”. That is Reddit-level hostility there, and something that your average conscientious Threadiverse participant will never experience - except unfortunately on the receiving end, as some very few people seem to take great pleasure in absolutely flaunting the rules in every community that they visit.It would also take a MASSIVE vote-altering campaign to counteract that effect. Something which if only due to its sheer scale might be noticed. And at that point it would be easier to create a new Lemmy account - some instances require nothing to make that happen - or even spin up a new instance in order to skirt the effects of downvoting.
In short, reputation is a part of the normal human set of interactions. PieFed acknowledges that and exceedingly gently places an icon next to the usernames of the most egregious offenders. I for one do not think that is a bad thing, even on purely theoretical grounds. We aren’t trying to recreate a new 4chan here (we already have Hexbear for that - seriously! 😐)
Skavau already covered the point about lemmy.ml being authoritative whereas Lemmy.today is not (in general there are 4 well-known tankie authoritarian instances and Lemmy.today is not one of those:-).
5·8 天前'grad, .ml, and hexbear. What’s the fourth?
… Surely not db0?
Edit: Apparently, this comment never showed up on piefed.social, so I’ll probably never get a reply.
I see it from Piefed.zip
Good thing I’m friends with everyone. Maybe the maga instance? I’ve heard people call beehaw and blahaj authoritarian, strangely.
You can make an alt on some other instance that is federated with piefed.social and ask again with that one! :)
It’s anyway useful to have alts.
🐳
(Just search for Tuuktuuk… I might have slightly been searching for the optimal instance for my use 🤣
…but then again, I have actually had actual occassinal need for four of my alts! The other PieFed one when this one has been down, the Lemmy one for seeing how things look when viewed from Lemmy, Mastodon for viewing microblog posts, Friendica for writing longer microblog posts and boosting them with my main Mastodon account, mbin is sometimes useful when I want to share posts and comments between Mastodon and PieFed/Lemmy.)
4 well-known tankie authoritarian instances
Which one is 4th?
Midwest.social - the admin Seahorse famously banning people for downvoting them. Yeah definitely less well-known than the usual 3.
the ever-expanding definition of “tankie” strikes again!
I was responding to this comment:
Lemmy is FAR more known for authoritative censorship than PieFed.
I’m aware of the weirder instances. I was saying Lemmy itself isn’t authoritative.
I’m not opposed to the reputation thing because I think manipulation will end in false positives, but because there are better systems to moderate users than popularity. Without knowing the details of it, seems like a straight ratio would disproportionately affect people who don’t post as often. Some people have like 30 comments over a year, most with two or three votes. At that point it just takes one or two really unpopular opinions to shift that ratio drastically. But I donno, maybe there’s a threshold.
Even so, right now I don’t mind leaving my more unpopular comments up because the fruitcake of conversation is better with a few odd chunks, and it doesn’t affect anything. The threat of a reputation label, no matter how unlikely it is to get one, is an incentive to please the crowd, and I think making votes mean anything was part of the problem with reddit. I don’t want anything to get in the way of a passionate user and their rant, I’m here for the crazy.
Plus, In moderating my community I found a few people who just straight downvote everything. One of the accounts I checked had hundreds of hours of downvoting, like an insane amount of clicking arrows. Tens of thousands of downvotes. I don’t want any kind of system someone like that can influence.
Regardless, I respect your argument and your points are valid. We might have to agree to disagree, and maybe I’ll see you on piefed soon, despite my criticisms.
Originally I meant that the Lemmy ecosystem is generally speaking more authoritarian than the PieFed one. This is in large part due to the preferences of the devs.
I will now also add the new related point that I think the coding design of Lemmy lends itself more to authoritarian control. It seems geared and marketed more towards instance admins, then mods, then users only last. Tbf PieFed is the same way here, but with a different focus due to the preferences of the main designer.
Lemmy is even more authoritarian than Reddit itself in many ways: Reddit at least sends a user a notification whenever their content is removed, plus users (and anyone who commented or otherwise has a direct link) can still see their content even after that. Reddit users may also contact the moderators via mod mail. In contrast, despite how Lemmy has the modlog, again there are no notifications for removal, and the modlog just says that the action was done by a “mod” (it used to always have the username, but now it can just say “mod”, so over time Lemmy has actually moved in the direction to become MORE authoritarian than it used to be, not less).
To be fair, PieFed also lacks a mod mail or notification upon removal of content, but I feel like for Piefed it is simply because it is new and new features being added monthly, even practically weekly. Whereas for Lemmy it gives an impression at least that it is a design choice that seems unlikely to ever change towards more democratic principles. We will see how they each develop over more time I suppose.
For now, many Lemmy instances are very free and open, subject to the software constraints, while others are extremely closed down, most especially lemmy.ml that the main Lemmy developer seems to spend an inordinate amount of time moderating rather than tweaking the codebase. That’s fine btw, it’s his code and he can do whatever he wants with it, although for me I choose PieFed instead, for all the above reasons and so much more.
Speaking of, none of what you said sounds to me like it should result in someone receiving a visual icon due to poor reputation. I’ve had some massively downvoted content myself, but if the system is implemented properly then it will consider more like a median downvoting rather than maximum or even average. Theoretically someone who only made 10 comments and >=9 of those were downvoted heavily, yeah they would get that icon. However, the icon does not cause filtering of their content (there are other things that can but those are entirely separate and not based on the user account), it’s merely a visual display. I’ve upvoted, downvoted, and replied to people’s comments even when I can see that icon - so it in no way blocks me from doing so or from seeing it in the first place. But it does (helpfully imho) label it, so that I have a better indicator going in what I am getting myself into.
Authoritarian Inoculation – Feature to reduce the impact of authoritarian propaganda.
That’s just the anti-propaganda links on the side.
Correct, and an admin can even disable those if they want to run a propaganda piefed instance for whatever reason.
Piefed.zip
I saw what makes you cheers.
