- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
Meloni heads Italy’s most rightwing government since the second world war. Italy’s criminal code punishes with a fine ranging from €1,000 to €5,000 anyone who “publicly defames the republic”, which includes the government, parliament, the courts and the army.
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how to tell if youre in a facist state:
the person accusing the facist goes to jailNobody went to jail.
Then it’s not a fascist state. Moving on
Pretty much. I don’t think people here know what a fascist state really is…
Historically, fascists didn’t start off with genocide. First, they got democratically elected…
Not what’s happening now,like at all XD
The nazis started by targeting lgbtq+ people. I wonder what scapegoat the far right has settled on these days?
Exactly like how it’s happening in every other country…
It’s the sign of a civilised state, where you can’t just randomly offend whoever you want a scale, you need to go to court and prove that you actually have proofs about what you’re saying. I applaud this move from the government, the left wings after years of cutting public services to bend to corporativism and ECB, leaving the country in the hands of all sort of migrants without doing anything for security, finally got what they deserve, and now everyone else is a fascist, but with no content
Oh, Lemmy has fascists now.
The left wing was cutting public services, right. Famous left wing policy. I think you’re thinking of liberals.
It’s astounding these people still don’t realize how obvious their tells are. Blaming migrants? Almost certainly an insensible right winger.
One of the main ‘issues’ with decentralised social media is that it allows the fringes of the political spectrum to have a platform. We’ll have to find a way to get along.
I’m not sure I want to “get along” with fascists.
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I share your general sentiment, I phrased the last part wrong - just trying to be civil in my post. Defederation with fascist instances would be the best shout.
It’s called defederation.
One of the main advantages of the federated medium is that providers can block the sources of gaslighting and propaganda and that users can move onto the ones that do.
You don’t get along with nazis you exterminate them like you would any parasite.
It can’t be that whoever has a different opinion is a fascist, also because I was just having a conversation, it doesn’t make sense, if everyone else is a fascist, the term loses any meaning and it’s hard to fight back the real fascists. Guess another issue with the boom of lemmy is that all the judge juries and executors from twitter are arriving.
No you’re just a fascist agreeing with a fascist government. Might as well call yourself what you are.
Let me guess, whoever disagrees with your subjective experience is also a fascist am I rite
If “civilised” means I have to tolerate fascists then I don’t wanna be civilised
Except that the scales aren’t the same and that it favors those who have the power and money to persecute people who don’t through the legal system. Like, for example, prosecuting the someone randomly offending without any proof such as yourself.
That’s a fair point, I would agree in general, but those who are often asked to prove what they say are usually people in positions of power or with a huge base, like in this case a singer, not some poor working class. I can’t understand how why you people think that going to court for asserting guilt is fascist…
Courts are usually the last vestiges of authoritarian power in democracies, having to rely on the authority of life-long (and politically) appointed supreme court judges after all recourses have been tried and done (which for you may not be many if you don’t have a wealth of cash), and they are at their worst when tied to money, power, and lack of public transparency. Most countries don’t even have jury systems in their courts and you can’t represent yourself within it. The predominance of mafias in Italy and their spread internationally is more than a hint of how ineffective and biased they can be.
I am not sure I understand what you are saying, it seems a bunch of buzzwords put together in a random way, starting from a civil court trial for defamation up to mafia to supreme court and back, they’re not even the same courts. Sorry I am not interested in juggling, there is a guy who has to prove that what he said has basis and is not defamation, he has money to pay for a lawyer, if you think everyone should be able to offend anyone without effects, be it, i don’t agree
if you think everyone should be able to offend anyone without effects, be it, i don’t agree
Sad that you don’t live by your own words, but unsurprising. And it was just 5 comments that had to be consistent with each other, too.
the left wings after years of cutting public services to bend to corporativism and ECB, leaving the country in the hands of all sort of migrants without doing anything for security, finally got what they deserve
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Seems like a great community with intelligent people able to sustain a conversation in the making, I’m understanding where twitter folks are moving
As Porco Rosso said: “I’d rather be a pig than a fascist”. Be like Porco Rosso…
Porko Rosso
Unless there’s a pun I’m missing here
“rather be a pig” and pork=pig meat
The character’s name is already Red Pig in Italian, though?
Yes but this is internationally friendly
Unless there’s a pun I’m missing here
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You mean racist fascist Giorgio Bologna?
They were in Italy at the time so I suppose they could have caused issues if they went full full fascist.
Ah, yes, nothing like forbidding people from calling out fascism to prove your government isn’t fascist.
Didn’t the world fight a world war to stop this kind of government from taking full control over a people?
Nah, Italy’s fascists were never really purged, because the occupying Americans preferred them to the Communist partisans
I’m not saying that Americans didn’t play their dirty tricks as usual, but it was Italian voters that elected Meloni, not the US…
it was Italian voters that elected Meloni, not the US…
As if that matters. As if Trump wasn’t elected by US voters after massive disinformation campaigns and international meddling.
Whether the people are partially to blame or not is a complicated topic. Both in the US and Italy, about half of the population were educated/smart enough to see through their propaganda. The right wing party still won though because they picked their target audience effectively and tailored their whole campaign around that audience.
@iByteABit @Damage forest for the trees…
Never laid the blame for that on anybody else
WW2 was started by the Nazis, so it was really them fighting for something. The rest of the world just defended itself
It’s a lot more problematic when the Nazis call from inside the house.
Ethiopians would disagree
Not really
Nah, just the one. And it was because he was killing hordes of people, not controlling them.
Um Mussolini’s Fascist Italy was very much in the war
But Franco got a pass. Probably because he didn’t invade his neighbors and committed his atrocities at home like a good little fascist.
Wait, which mussolini? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandra_Mussolini
Literal actual fascists behaving like fascists, surprise surprise.
Yeah this was my thought reading this, too.
Who woulda thunk that when you give the fascists power, they don’t stop being fascists! #surprisedpikachu
TIL about Italy’s shunning of their past in contrast to the “collective guilt” felt by Germans after WWII
Have you ever heard of Mafia. Bc if you come to this country they will mostly collectively lie and tell you" Hun? Naaaa that’s gone". You live here for a while and you like, oh ok, we just pretending it’s gone nice.
The fact that the Italian military & it’s leaders were spared from the Nuremberg Trials made this all the easier.
Italy has a real hardware love for fascism, it’s part of the culture, unfortunately. I wouldn’t be surprised if they go full Nazi in the coming decades.
After WW2 italian socialist and communist parties where between the strongest ones in non USRR europe (if not the number one), but let’s just spout random nonsense for no reason
While the extreme right wing never disappeared, they were as much as a niche as the extreme left.
The country stayed between the left and the center until well into the 90s when a moderate right became more prominent and started to be closer to a 50/50 split
The general right wing radicalization we’re seeing now is way more recent and it’s hardly a phenomenon exclusive to Italy.
I totally agree that the current Italian government is ridiculous and that this problem with extreme right wing populism is becoming very serious in most western countries, Italy included.
But comparing this to a culture ingrained love for fascism when fascism didn’t last for even 1% of Italian history and culture is just asinine and ignorant.
This kind of attitude is ironically very similar to the racism you’re trying to criticize
With operation Gladio Italy was the core place for neonazi terrorist groups that received paramilitary training and funding by the US and carried out multiple terrorist attacks to be blamed on the left. It is hard to believe that the Italian government wouldnt have known and tolerated theses activities too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
Italy has a real hardware love for fascism
yup even italian computers are infected
I swear to god that I typed hardcore. lol
Sometimes it feels that Italy consists entirely of pasta, fascism and 🤌.
Now, what I would do if I were Brian Molko is I would absolutely go to trial. Turn it in a show. Either I get convicted, in which case, Meloni looks even more like a fascist, or I get exonerated, in which case, it’s the courts that are accepting that she’s a fascist.
5000E is not an issue, he can fundraise that in an afternoon.
GO BRIAN
I’ve never really been a Placebo fan or a supporter until right now
Brian’s duet with David Bowie is a thing of beauty.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=c14qMbmP9eg
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Placebo is one of my guilty pleasures when I feel mopey.
Never once thought about their politics but this 100 percent checks out.
They do an amazing cover of Running Up That Hill but, honestly, they are the kind of band you turn on and just vibe to.
Proving them right, I see
Person: “You’re a fascist”
Government: “That’s wrong; we’re gonna use the power of the state to investigate and punish you for something you said”
Person: “Oh well I stand corrected. Totally not fascist at all…”
Thats the fascist paradox.
Call someone a fascist, if they want to oppress you because you lied, then you are right, so they can oppress you, but if they dont oppress you, then you are wrong and you are to be oppressed, but then you will be right.
The USSR would also persecute people for criticizing the Soviet state or its leaders, but they weren’t fascist. Authoritarianism is something people on the left and right both get up to.
I mean we are kind of splitting hairs a bit then. The worst thing about fascism is mostly the autocracy and the “ends justify lots of murder” attitude. When people talk about the evils of fascism that’s what they’re talking about.
Likewise, when people criticize Stalinism, they aren’t talking about the high minded ideals or even the questionable fashion choices. They are talking about the autocracy, and the “ends justify lots of murder” attitude.
True but the current PM is echoing a LOT of fascist views.
Oh, Mellonhead is definitely a fascist, I’m just pointing out that you get the same kinda of oppression at the other end of the lef-right spectrum, too.
There’s plenty of oppression and violence smack dab in the center of the left right spectrum too. I’m not sure why horseshoe theory is so keen to equate Stalin, Mao, etc. with the violence of Hitler, Pinochet, etc. while ignoring the genocides of the Dutch East India Co. (and competitors), imperialism, the slave trade, settler colonialism, etc.
Absolutely! This is why, even though the political compass is a memey oversimplification at this point, it does get a the inadequacy of a single dimension view of political ideology. The authoritarian mindset is a human trait, and while some ideologies seem more prone to attracting people with that particular trait, by no means does it only occur in those cases.
Some people just want to rule over others.
If left-wing authoritarianism isn’t an oxymoron, then what the heck does left-wing mean?
I agree that authoritarianism does not equal fascism, but the only meaningful definition of left-right politics (in my opinion) is a measure of belief in and adherence to social hierarchies. And the USSR was definitely heavily into hierarchy.
Why would it be an oxymoron? There is nothing on the political chart or inherent to it to forbid the left wing to be authoritarian.
This is my thinking, let me know if you see any issues with my interpretation:
First line of Wikipedia Left-wing politics: Left-wing politics describes the range of political ideologies that support and seek to achieve social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy as a whole.
First list of Wikiepdia Authoritarianism: Authoritarianism is a political system characterized by the rejection of political plurality, the use of strong central power to preserve the political status quo, and reductions in the rule of law, separation of powers, and democratic voting.
By these definitions, Left-wing politics should want to evenly distribute power democratically, whereas authoritarianism wants to centralise power in a single entity such as a the military or a dictator.
The perpetual dictatorship of the proletariat in Marxist-Leninism is functionally indifferent from the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. The authoritarian leadership just becomes the new bourgeoisie.
All good with the definitions, please share them as much as you want.
My claim is extremely simple, nothing is gonna stop you as a left wing representative to reach those objectives through authoritarian means.
I don’t see how is that hard to understand unless you claim some kind of special position for either side.
In which case, this is not a conversation I’m interested in.
Yeah, that’s where the left-right concept kinda breaks down.
It feels wrong to say the USSR wasn’t left when you consider the many left policies they had and of course their origin.
I also agree with your idea of what left-wing should mean. I guess there’s no way to avoid complexity with topics like this.
I’d argue the USSR was fascist the same way the DPRK is fascist. You aren’t necessarily left-wing just because you say you are.
Neither state is fascist. The similarity you are noting is the authoritarian parts. Fascism opposes bolshevism and especially the USSR.
I can see the parallels but this really conflicts with the historical definition of fascist. Then again, practically everyone is a fascist these days at least according to someone, so maybe the historical definition doesn’t matter anymore. Guess that’s the downside of it being the universally despised bogeyman term in politics.
Thought it might be helpful to compare the USSR to Wikipedia’s definitions of fascism and communism. These definitions can be wrong or could be different than what they were at the height of the USSR, but perhaps it’ll help with finding common definitions. I’ll admit that my knowledge of USSR culture/governance is limited, so feel free to critique/refute any of my interpretations.
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
Checklist (hidden for brevity)
- +Dictatorial leader: Stalin wasn’t exactly a democratic ruler. Check.
- ?Centralized autocracy: AKA: One person has final say over any government decision. Probably, but maybe not depending on your definition?
- +Militarism: Definitely had a significant military focus. Check.
- +Forcible suppression of opposition: Yeah, that sounds par for the course for modern Russian government.
- ?Belief in natural social hierarchy: Does semi-deliberate wealth disparity and nationalistic superiority complex count?
- ?Subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race: Sounds likely, but not 100% sure.
- +Strong regimentation of society and the economy: Pretty sure the USSR had a planned centralized economy.
It hits 4/7 pretty firmly and the remaining 3 are plausible.
is a left-wing to far-left sociopolitical, philosophical, and economic ideology… whose goal is the creation of a communist society, a socioeconomic order centered around common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange that allocates products to everyone in the society based on need. A communist society would entail the absence of private property and social classes, and ultimately money and the state.
Checklist (hidden for brevity)
- XCommon ownership of the means of production of goods/services: Weren’t these state-owned?
- XCommon ownership of the means of distribution of goods/services: ^
- XCommon ownership of the means of exchange of goods/services: ^^
- ?Allocates products to everyone in the society based on need: Wasn’t there significant poverty while others’ were well-fed? If distribution wasn’t tied to labor, then it could be argued this fits, if somewhat imperfectly.
- XAbsence of private property: Oligarchs don’t exactly scream “lack of private property”
- XAbsence of social classes: Again, oligarchs and poverty
- ?Absence of money: Can’t comment on this one
- XAbsence of the state: There was 100% an overarching state
Hits 2/8 at best, but I would be surprised to learn there wasn’t money in the USSR.
Yes, but that is a different conversation. Now we are talking about Meloni and her ties to the far right 🙂
Stalin was absolutely a fascist.
He really wasn’t, though.
All fascists are authoritarians, not all authoritarians are fascist.
No he was not. Fascism is vocally and clearly opposed to Stalinism, Marxism and any form of Bolshevism.
You have no idea what fascism is if you honestly think Stalin was one. Stalin was a totalitarian Stalinist which is a form of Marxism.
Read about Red Fascism in history…
Still not applying to fucking Stalin. I mean seriously have you even read his speeches or those made by fascists against him? For some reason I doubt that entirely.
Fascism is not just “a system I dislike”.
As Italian is worth mentioning that these nationalist dimwits we have now in charge have being elected with a genius grade new electoral law pushed by the centre left coalition and especially devised in a bipartisan accord between the centre left and the centre right coalition to counter the rise of Movimento 5 Stelle (or any new “small” party) which would then interfere, as indeed it did in the previous election, with the well established bi-partitism which had been instated from Berlusconi since the late 90’s (as per P2 Masonry Group Manifest bullet point, https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_di_rinascita_democratica and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due).
As result of this new electoral law Meloni is holding Italian government by the balls with a mere actual 16,4% of votes on the voters total.
Let’s go into numbers, indeed Meloni coalition (“centre” right, lol) got 43,79% of the total valid votes, of which 26% for Meloni’s own Fratelli d’Italia party, but you must consider that these percentages do not include the 36,91% of citizens holding voting rights which didn’t actually vote at all, which means this non-group missed to be the largest non-coalition by little and de-facto resulted in non-being the most non-representative non-party.
So accounting for the 36.91% of non-voters Meloni is acting like an empress embodying the second coming of Mussolini with a scant 16.4% of actual voting preference. For this don’t forget to thank the center-left for pushing the afore mentioned new electoral law, because this only is what enabled her to act like she’s doing.BONUS: article on some buried past of Meloni as failed nerd wannabe career using public money
https://kotaku.com/georgia-meloni-italian-pm-fps-shooter-game-pope-unreal-1850163072We have an old saying in Germany, from the times of the Weimar Republic’s communists, which roughly translates to:
“Who has betrayed us? The Social Democrats”
It rhymes in German.
Wasn’t the Weimar communist party also the one who said “after Hitler, us”, and formed a coalition? I may be completely mistaken and misremembering. My impression was always that it wasn’t the center left nor the left at fault, it was their feuding with each other that allowed Hitler to rise.
Had the two groups seen each other as rivals and not enemies, I think things would be way different.
She’s literally the head of a self proclaimed fascist party, isn’t she?
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Evil politicians aren’t evil because they have some spooky magic evil disorder. Please stop perpetuating this. ~Cherri
Fascist in everything but name. They want everyone to follow the same song and dance that they’re totally not fascist tho
Fascist gonna crybully
Meloni, 46, heads Italy’s most rightwing government since the second world war. Italy’s criminal code punishes with a fine ranging from €1,000 to €5,000 (£858 to £4,290) anyone who “publicly defames the republic”, which includes the government, parliament, the courts and the army.
Wow. Ok then…I guess technically he did violate that law and so it shouldn’t matter how fucked up that law is with respect to an investigation being done about it, but can we still talk about how fucked up that law is in an EU country? Yeah I know Italy’s a little bit different and such, but goddamn.
W would have loved to have had something like this when the Dixie Chicks got out of line over Iraq (though his response quoted there seems oddly…reasonable? ehh, fuck W): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Chicks_controversy
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Why is fascism even defamation of they love fascism so much?
Fascists don’t like to admit that they’re fascists. Or at least they don’t like it to be publicly known.
Unfortunately in Italy it still is, baffling as it is
But you need to prove that you’re stating facts, and that’s why you need to defend yourself in court, social media polls don’t work as law/government entity body
Fair enough.
They have it in a lot of other countries in Europe too. Its fucking disgusting and constantly abused by conservatives. You also see it being used against people who insult the church in certain countries.
It’s far from being a problem imho all of these are extremely rare and often don’t go anywhere
So no freedom of speech?
“Free speech bro’s would kindly request that all free speech is fully aligned with the party policies… thank you”
You’re free to be super duper racist, sexist, ableist, pretty much any kind of discrimination you want. Isn’t that enough?
No, I want talking shit about governments without government punishment. Ya know, freedom of speech
Yeah we do,these laws are not commonly enforced if ever.
- as long as you direct these towards groups/people we also hate.
Not if it means I have to trade away my right to criticize the government.
Yeah, wtf?
In a democratic state it is imperative that the population is free to criticize their government.
What is the EU saying about this? Don’t they have demands on member states to uphold democratic values?
The EU is wiling to impose severe GDPR restrictions to stop its own citizens from revealing just how racist and oppressive their governments are on social networks, all the while and without a shred of irony criticizing the US, that does allow this liberty, when it is revealed through a means they do not afford their own citizens.
The EU is a lot about appearance, not about reality. I’m sure the EU will form some committee or other to polite suggest to Italy to not be fascist.
Lol wut XD
In European countries, authorities and people use the GDPR to argue against dashcams, security cams recording public space, and even disseminating smartphone recordings on social media, whereas in the US not only is it a no-brainer that you can do it, it has been used to great effect in regards to recording and denouncing gross violations and abuses that European media has no problem reproducing on their news networks.
Tell me what European country you are from and I will look up the fines people have received by doing things they could freely do in the US to report abuses due to the GDPR.
wait are you talking about the right to be forgotten?
No, but that’s also another example of a law that’s generally abused by the powerful and affluent to hide themselves from society.
A lot of downvotes, but no one taking up on my offer, which says a lot about how many of those downvotes come from people willing to inform and challenge themselves.
In your dreams XD
I’ve been surprised that some western countries have laws like this. A French woman has also been fined for insulting Macron.
The public prosecution department in Germany let someone’s home got searched because he called a conservative politician “Du bist so 1 Pimmel” (“you are such a penis”) via Twitter.
At the same time the public prosecution department in Germany regularly refuses to take action against hate speech when aimed against other people. Even other politicians.
And since many people do not really understand our jurisdiction, they believe it is enough to protest against the police.
I wonder what their response would be to a bunch of lemmings outside the reach of Germany’s laws doing the same?
It’s almost like making laws against free speech is a slippery slope.
It can be, but not all speech is free, not even in the US.
Them’s fighting words.
Nope. There’s a bunch of thoughts and speech acts that don’t contribute anything. There’s a reason the swastika and other Nazi codes/insignia are outlawed in Germany. “We just need to exterminate the Jews for a better life for everyone else” is similarly outlawed under an incitement to genocide clause.
There are very good reasons to put barriers on absolutely free speech.
What i meant was actually, fighting words are not protected under free speech in the USA. Not disagreeing, just making a funny.
Not just that, slander, defamation, hate speech, harassment can all be speech yet you can get sued and will have to pay for that sort of speech. Actually the US is basically the same as most other western countries, the „only the US allows free speech“-simpletons couldn’t be further off.
To be exact, there is a difference between insult and defamation
I’m not too sure about the technicalities either, so I’m not sure if insulting is also a problem.
But declamation requires saying something false to ruin the other person’s reputation, and it’s actually a crime even against normal people
declamation requires saying something false to ruin the other person’s reputation
*defamation
Declamation is a form of rhetoric.
Thank you, I didn’t notice the typo!
