I don’t understand why there are so many people who consider themselves “Marxist feminists”, but at the same time are distracted by astrology.
The origin of feminism is working class, and as a working class movement, it is materialist. I don’t know if they at least know what dialectical materialism is, since they don’t see such an abysmal contradiction between astrology (pseudoscience) and feminism (materialism).
They remind me of the liberal “feminist” Gloria Steinem.
And the same with some anarchists.
What do you think about it?
The most useful thing about being familiar with the zodiac is that if you don’t live in a city and can see the sky at night, it functions as calendar, clock, and compass.
I don’t understand why there are so many people who consider themselves “Marxist gamers”, but at the same time are distracted by video games.
The origin of gaming is working class, and as a working class movement, it is materialist. I don’t know if they at least know what dialectical materialism is, since they don’t see such an abysmal contradiction between gaming (fantasy) and marxism (materialism).
They remind me of the liberal “gamer” Jason Schreier.
And the same with some anarchists.
What do you think about it?
Your comparison makes no sense.
A conjunct of sciences and disciplines together (mathematics, physics, mechanics, computer science, art, drawing, design, animation) versus esperituality and idealism.
Grow up
So what, how dare women have a hobby or interest right?
Imaging a witch with a bloody athame and demon behind her saying this.
It’s me, I’m that witch.
Sorry, but I never assumed it was women who considered themselves Marxist feminists in the first instance, I wrote “people”. And I’m not taking astrology as “a hobby I do in my spare time”, I’m referring specifically to the anti-materialism implicit in it, taken worryingly seriously by supposedly materialist people.
I will ask again: SO WHAT?
99.9% of people who “practice” astrology do not take it seriously. I have many friends who are into it, I myself have been into it in the past and the idea that people actually think it’s serious is just a massive joke. A small group of people probably take it seriously but then you get fanatics in literally every hobby.
The problem I saw is that you are assuming that by “distracted” I mean a “hobby”, I don’t mean a hobby, I mean an addressing of ideals. I have absolutely no problem with people having hobbies, mainly because it would be so stupid to be against it. Also, you are mistakenly believing that I attacked women in the first instance, I mean, what?
It’s funny that you say 99.9% of people, and then immediately after that you refer to you and your friends. Just because your friends take it as a game, doesn’t mean that there are people who don’t take it completely seriously, and go around judging other people solely by the position of certain planets and stars, not by their ideas constructed based on their material conditions.
Also, you are mistakenly believing that I attacked women in the first instance, I mean, what?
You are the one who was making it about feminism in your original post despite it having nothing to do with your point.
It’s funny that you say 99.9% of people, and then immediately after that you refer you to your friends. Just because your friends take it as a game, doesn’t mean that there are people who don’t take it completely seriously, and go around judging other people solely by the position of certain planets and stars, not by their ideas constructed based on their material conditions.
A small group of people probably take it seriously but then you get fanatics in literally every hobby.
I did in fact address that point? And at least I gave a sample group for my argument, unlike you who is just saying it’s “taken worringly seriously by supposedly materialist people” without elaborating. Who are these materialists who are supposedly taking astrology seriously? Because from what I am seeing in this thread, absolutely nobody is taking astrology seriously, they are just defending people’s right to enjoy it as a hobby. Again, I have hung out in astrology spaces. The people who actually take it seriously are a very small minority of astrology fans, just like how a small minority of sports or gaming fans take it way too seriously.
You are the one who was making it about feminism in your original post despite it having nothing to do with your point.
And again. I don’t understand why it is difficult to think of “people who consider themselves Marxist feminists” and not just “women”. That being the case, it will misunderstand everything and become an attack on the person, not their ideas.
astrology is not just a feminist thing, so why even bring up feminism in the first place?
This conversation is going around in circles. I have no interest in continuing and will not be responding further. Goodbye.
Astrology is not just a feminist thing. Feminism is not just a women’s thing. I mentioned it primarily because it is the way in which many people who are themselves focused on astrology (and the magical thinking involved) describe themselves.
Goodbye. :)
This is very silly. Not everything needs to fit into a “materialst/anti-materialist” box.
What about reading works of fiction? Playing card games? Watching movies? Studying languages? Learning a skill? None of these have anything to do with materialism or production. Are the people engaging in them, “anti-materialist”? Are the activities “anti-materialist”?
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with astrology, its a fun hobby like anything else.
There’s nothing anti-materialist in fiction because it doesn’t claim predictive capabilities on reality, there are anti-materialist things in astrology because it claims predictive capabilities on reality.
in fiction because it doesn’t claim predictive capabilities on reality
Lots of works of fiction make claims about reality.
there are anti-materialist things in astrology because it claims predictive
How seriously those are taken is up to the person. You’re treating astrology in a way that most people interested in it don’t. Its less of a religion and more like a magic 8-ball.
im way more concerned with people glazing the woke pope and liberation theology as proto communism than I am somebody doing a birth chart, idk.
we need to stop men from being allowed to post on here until we figure out what’s going on
Realistically speaking, who fucking cares?
A whole lot of people spilling ink about astrology, “pseudoscience” and “mysticism” in here that don’t seem to know anything about it or its relation to the patriarchal, racial and class contradictions. And a whole lot of people that don’t seem directly concerned with most of those things themselves but feel it’s important to share their opinions on something they’re not informed about and not concerned about.
For the record i don’t care for astrology at all, I don’t like the (extremely, extremely rare) people who take it 100% seriously, but it’s still one of those things that’s kinda fun sometimes. But i don’t care, and i have no trust in people who are worried about “feminists hurting their own movement by doing things wrong” when they’re not a part of that movement.
thanks for posting this out more coherently than I could. I’m no astrologer but the weird ass struggle sessions we have about it tri annually are really fucking dumb and pointless and I’ll point out that we have more than a little catholic apologia on this site pretty consistently and it shouldn’t be controversial to say astrology has done much less material harm to women and leftists generally than the fucking pedo cabal that did literal crusades and genocides and witch burnings
Could you elaborate on the link between pseudoscience, mysticism, and patriarchal/racial relations and class contradictions?
Could you elaborate on the link between pseudoscience, mysticism, and patriarchal/racial relations and class contradictions?
god forbid women get distracted by anything
OP, this might seem kinda harsh; and I don’t know you so I don’t intend to attack you personally; but I feel the need to go off a bit and tell you how this and some of your comments below all comes across. Because
This Whole Thing Smacks of Gender
Judging by your pronoun tag, you’re a man telling everyone about how, in the abstract, women “feminists,” are “distracted” by things they ‘shouldn’t be’ because it’s “irrational” and “pseudoscience,” and they “are a problem to the movement” and you apparently know better than such frivolity~ and are here to revoke their ‘diamat credentials’ because they ‘probably don’t even understand it.’ It reads as some pretty blatant chauvinism and patriarchal denigration that’s not based in anything but a misplaced sense of superiority.
Like, can you give me one example where a marxist feminist action has been undermined by someone being interested in this particular personal mysticism? How marxist feminist progress or work has been materially undermined at all by how marxist feminist organizers or others might play with or relate to these things in their free-time? Has any prominent marxist feminist engaged in direct action ever said “I won’t work with you bc ur a scorpio” to another comrade engaged in the struggle and split a party over it, and you saw this and were so shaken by it that you feel the need to bring up the concern? Have any of these things happened for this criticism to be rooted in a real reality as a concern for you, and you are not just concern-trolling about ‘the sanctity and strength of the marxist feminist movement,’ which you may or may not even be a part of, to distance yourself from the visibly likely problematic aspects of your mentality behind it?
Or are you working yourself up in a way that frankly, to me, reads as adjacent to anti-feminist gamergate CHUDS attacking things women like because women like it, and you think it’s “silly” and ‘beneath you’ in some way?
I think you should analyze where this is coming from and maybe do some self-criticism, because this doesn’t sound real. I’ve organized many people, including with many marxists (women and otherwise, cis and otherwise) some of whom were in varying degrees interested in this kind of stuff (with women and non-cis being the most common) and plenty who weren’t or practiced other beliefs. And with those of whom were, I’ve had many quality conversations where it came up and we learned more about each other in how we may or may not relate to or experience supposed signifiers-of-aspects of our personalities represented in these ~jungian-style ‘universal archetypes’ that astrology is constructed around. Just as I have in different ways with people who had other spiritual/religious beliefs. And at no point at all were these mysticisms or religious beliefs made central or even came up at all in the actual analysis and planning and material action of protests, union organizing, or discussion in theory-study groups or anything. Least of all did it ever cause any harm to our work. Many of those individuals have been more committed, do better and more focused work, and have accomplished more to help working people and further socialism than me even at my most involved; and, again I don’t know you, but going off of other people I’ve encountered who’ve expressed similar attitudes, I’d find it VERY hard to believe that these people, who I’ve also never heard speak like this about others’ personal religious/spiritual beliefs, are less capable marxists than you.
And any concern about “abysmal contradictions between pseudoscience and materialism” would equally apply to any marxists of any gender being religious or believing in a higher power at all — but you fixating on astrology and women marxist-feminists sets off alarms for me. So I’m not trying to attack you personally, because I don’t know you, but I want to communicate to you that it sounds like you either harbor some misogynistic attitudes and chauvinism, or that maybe, you like, heard a classmate you like say something bad about your star sign and you’re upset about it and deflecting.
I’m more absurdist when it comes to personal-emotional beliefs. But astrology is just a fun mysticism for some people. For some people it gives them a sense of greater-than-them wonder and/or purpose not so different to what other religion and spirituality does, and without the inbuilt patriarchal structure of most major religions. I’ve found it can also be an effective tool for self-reflection by externalizing aspects of one’s self in an arranged way that expresses the interconnected dialectical strengths-in-weaknesses and vice-versa of aspects of one’s personality, to examine separated from your ego. When I was taught about some of this stuff by a coworker years ago, it did genuinely help me embrace and confront parts of myself that I hadn’t previously thought about, or struggled with due to over-internalization of toxic patriarchal norms. As well it can just be a fun way of getting to know other people according to how they do or don’t relate to certain aspects or signifiers supposedly attached to them, in a way that’s not much different from, and in some cases deeper-reaching or more specific than sharing art that we connect with back and forth, as an extension of ourselves to be felt and understood in ways that we might struggle to be otherwise in the course of normal conversation.
Like what is the actual problem here where this needs you to take such a
stand? There is laughably zero threat of some Kautsky-level “Astrolo-marxist” movement misleading the working class into a world war because ‘oops I’m such an aries’. There’s no “Astrological Papacy” that owns 1/3 of the land in Europe and is embedded in the governmental structures of nations. It’s not that serious. And your saying they’re “distracted” and “a problem to the movement” and “not radically useful” like they’re only good “pure” marxist feminists if they dedicate every second of every moment (including self-reflection or leisure time) to pure doctrinal historical and dialectical materialism is… it’s just weird my dude. Who made you the arbiter of feminism? And do you ever watch TV? Play video games? Shitpost online? Imagine fanciful scenarios in your head? These are all distractions. Why is theirs “worse” than yours? I guarantee you that you tell yourself lies every day that are just as inaccurate and anti-materialist as a given mysticism/religion that someone might resonate with. I don’t care how “dialectical-materialist-mensch” you think you are. I do too. We all do to an extent. I think this is all worth you reflecting on.…
…
In short:
JUST like a Capricorngo off
thanks for this post. honestly my misogyny alarms start to go off anytime i see a man talk down on or “critique” astrology in any capacity…Real flashbacks to various pronoun struggle sessions in early Hexbear where an unusually high percentage of people with “serious concerns” shared a certain pronoun tag. 🤔
Tbh, in the back of my mind I was wondering how much of such a strong reaction against something like astrology in the OP comes from an unstated/unexamined/unconscious bias against some activities women engage in because they’re “too emotional.” It brings up the old patriarchal dichotomy of irrational women, rational men. I think that should be carefully examined in unpacking the topic of the original post.
Well damn. I’m never gonna judge a witch or astrologer for their spirituality again. Good post.
actually it’s a fact all capitalists are scorpios
I agree with you 100% All mysticism of any type should be criticised. Like Marx said, one of our tasks is “ruthless criticism of all that exists”. Unironic belief in astrology or witchcraft (heavy emphasis on the unironic part so that people don’t misconstrue me) should be opposed by any leftist.
Anti-patriarchal aspects of witchcraft, as others have eloquently stated here already. Also on some level it’s a chicken/egg thing as some point, as girl power culture (I’m sure there’s a term for that) embraces certain hobbies and interests. For every girl that seems to embrace dangerous woo-woo shit, there’s thirty more that just wanna have fun.
I may have my biases as a former Wiccan, though.
There’s a lot of good history on this in the book, Caliban and the Witch. Witchcraft, mysticism, and astrology were interests, tools, and spaces for women to oppose the church-patriarchy.
Ahh, there’s another book for my growing tbr list. 😅
There’s an audiobook recorded of it on youtube and torrents. Its a great Marxist history of the transition from feudalism to capitalism in western europe.
Humans and mysticism is pretty much a fact of life you can’t separate the two. Most people will have their own personal set of rituals that don’t have any basis in material reality but are done anyway for comfort and trying to feel some level of control in a chaotic world. I don’t really see the importance of focusing on one specific kind of mysticism and correlating it to feminism it doesn’t really make any sense to me. The fact that some people like astrology doesn’t prevent or interfere with feminism they’re not contradictory.
An aggressive dislike of it is more of a red flag to me tbh. I have my own silly little rituals I do to make me feel better. If I believe an item I have gives me good luck and I take it with me when I go outside am I now not a marxist because i hold contradictory beliefs between political ideology and the concept of luck? I don’t think so
Humans and mysticism is pretty much a fact of life you can’t separate the two
Speak for yourself. Making claims about “hooman nayture” being linked to mysticism isn’t any more historically accurate than saying human nature is linked to violence and war. Sure, it’s been a constant in most societies for most of history, but who’s to say that’s not just something we’ll examine in textbooks in the future?
I agree with the particular focus on astrology, and I don’t even see the link between astrology and feminism and I think it’s weird from OP.
Silly rituals are one thing (culture, tradition), belief that supernatural forces affect the material reality is a very different category
Having been close friends with someone who’s way into astrology, I think there’s a number of factors here.
Firstly, in a world that is clearly ‘going wrong’, with ever increasing economic precarity, political polarization, and visible worsening of climate change, the idea of a system than can give you any level of prediction for your personal future is a huge comfort. Marxism, despite being a scientific discipline that makes very accurate long-term predictions of social development, has no (or very little) power on the individual level, so some people may cling to this other system that gives them a sense of preparedness for their personal life. And while I agree that truly understanding and internalizing a dialectical-materialist perspective means both an end to being able to believe in things like astrology, and a kind of inner peace in the face of the inevitable dialectical unfolding of the material world, most people (who are still valuable allies) never actually reach that level of understanding.
Secondly, as people are increasingly alienated and atomized, it provides access to a large social space of overwhelmingly non-straight-white-cis-male people, immediately gives you a tribe with specific traits and icons to identify with, has (at the very least, the aesthetic of) a deep history going back to antiquity and has a lot of specific in-jokes that can quickly bring someone into the fold. My friend is constantly posting memes about the supposed characteristics of various different star signs, sub-categories of those star signs, interactions between different star signs, etc. etc. It’s an endless source of, for want of a better word, content, which you can enjoy both as part of the space as a whole and from within your specific niche. You can see something and say “Yes, I am like that! They know me so well!”, or “Ah, you got me! I do that too!”, or “Oh, those [star sign]! That’s exactly how they are!”, all of which binds you into a social fabric and identity that rarely exists elsewhere.
And thirdly, through the supposed ‘compatibility’ of different star signs, it gives people a guide to who they should try to form a relationship with. Statistically, by far the number one danger to women is their male romantic partners, both in terms of physical violence but also in terms of the possibility of psychic distress. Will he dump me? Will he cheat on me? Will he leave me to do all the house work? He seems like a good guy now, but is he just tricking me until he thinks I’m stuck with him? Does he secretly listen to Andrew Tate? Will he start doing that a year into our relationship and suddenly completely change? There’s no way to know these things, and under patriarchal capitalism men are under constant social pressure to gain these behaviors and traits. So a system that claims to give even the slightest insight into who you can trust to be a good partner offers a huge psychological comfort.
And thirdly, through the supposed ‘compatibility’ of different star signs, it gives people a guide to who they should try to form a relationship with. Statistically, by far the number one danger to women is their male romantic partners, both in terms of physical violence but also in terms of the possibility of psychic distress. Will he dump me? Will he cheat on me? Will he leave me to do all the house work? He seems like a good guy now, but is he just tricking me until he thinks I’m stuck with him? Does he secretly listen to Andrew Tate? Will he start doing that a year into our relationship and suddenly completely change?
What’s the point of a guide with an irrational basis? It seems deeply dangerous to me to try to answer these questions based on the timing of someone’s birth. Sure, there’s no 100% reliable way to answer these questions, but there have to be better methods than literal mysticism. Like say, investigating what his friends are like.
I understand that people find comfort in beliefs, but the idea that you can trust someone based on the alignments of stars and planets is so wild to me. And that goes for conventional religion too. I don’t think most Christians or Muslims feel these sorts of questions can be answered simply by knowing the other person is also a believer. If they did, I think they would be making a mistake. You can be hurt by people who fit the right “type”, or who share the same beliefs as you. Find comfort in what you want, I suppose, but basing trust in people off of spiritual belief can have catastrophic results. like abuse in cults
These responses describing astrology as just a psychological comfort or even as entertainment, equating it with using the internet or playing a game, seem to ignore that the repeated practice of a belief can instill that belief, and that true belief impels you to act based on that belief. Lots of people treat astrology as just a fun fantasy to discuss, and I really have no problem with that. But truly believing in it and acting on it seems not only not Marxist, but more importantly a risky and misleading way to live life. If we don’t embrace irrational reasons for making political decisions, why should they be embraced for making personal decisions?
You’re absolutely right, it’s no real help whatsoever. But there’s also no other actual guide beyond just having to learn the hard way to discern people’s true intentions, which is difficult and exhausting while astrology appears so simple and easy. This is not in any way a justification, just my explanation of why it’s so pervasive and attractive, and why the state of the world cultivates pseudoscientific beliefs in general - of which astrology is merely among the most socially acceptable to display, and therefore has the largest reach.
I definitely think its use in making life decisions is actively harmful, but it’s hard to pull people away from what may be their strongest social connections. In this way it’s just like any other real religion, which as Marxists we obviously oppose, but we also have to understand that these beliefs, and the psychological need for these beliefs, arise from social conditions of alienation. So until we’re in a position to change social conditions, just attacking the belief system and the people who believe in it won’t achieve results and will just push people away. Especially when so often, the people holding these beliefs will come from among the more marginalized intersections - probably not a coincidence, as if you’re a member of a group who has much more control over their life why would you need to look for guidance in the stars?
When the time comes, I’m sure there will have to be some kind of cultural revolution to sweep out every kind of pseudoscience, from astrology to crystal healing to reiki to everything else, but until then all we can do is tolerate these beliefs in our allies, push against them in our actual comrades and make sure they’re never used to make the really important organizational decisions.
This is not in any way a justification, just my explanation of why it’s so pervasive and attractive
I see now. I wasn’t sure earlier if you were defending it or not. I think your earlier explanation as to why it appeals to people makes a lot of sense.
I agree with your assessment here about pseudoscience. Magical thinking is a product of alienation and can give people hope and reassurance, but there’s a fine line between self-soothing and denial of reality and necessity.
I think we have to be careful to disentangle our view of pseudoscience and magical thinking from judging the character of their adherents. I don’t think we can always ignore these beliefs as an issue for a later date. Addressing these beliefs now can and should be done with empathy. I think this counterreaction to “reddit atheism” has come about from conflating their belligerence, lack of respect, and laundering science for progressive-washed imperialism, with their ontology being incorrect. We have to make a positive case that confronting life’s problems without magical thinking gives people a more genuine agency and sense of agency, which is emotionally fulfilling too.
as always, Marx put it best:
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions.
We shouldn’t be afraid to call on them, we just have to be careful and empathetic.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions.
Man, I’m sure I’ve read it before but I must have forgotten, he really does always cut it right down to the purest truth.
I agree with everything you’ve said, and having read through this other thread about astrology I think I was taking too soft of a position on it, for exactly the reasons you mentioned.
I’d also like to link an essay, The Overthrow of Religious Authority and the Eradication of Superstition (1927) which I think is relevant.
thanks for the link
I think Philosophy Tube has a video about witchcraft and Marxism which explains the connection.
Should be similar to tarot.
One reason women, in particular, flock to it is because it’s already a woman centered space. Witchcraft is anti-patriarchy and anti-hegemony, so Marxists would find that aspect appealing.
Also, as an aside, there’s an old book on Wicca from the 70s called A Witch’s Bible by Janet and Stewart Farrar, which at one point encourages readers to study Marxism and Dialectical Materialism, because the underlying spiritual philosophy of witchcraft is very dialectical. And I think that’s pretty cool
Astrology is for fun, I truly don’t think it’s any deeper than that
