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The second episode of LTT’s Linux challenge is out.

明-3 NOMAD
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16d

“I tried to install something using apt while I should have used pacman, how was I supposed to know this!?”

“I tried to install a .dmg while I should have installed a .exe, how was I supposed to know this!?”

Tmpod
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616d

Exactly my reaction. Just like, don’t tackle a system without reading the first pages of its quick start guide or whatever…

Also a lot of the stuff they mentioned were issues regarding closed source software companies, not issues regarding Linux. Sure, some applications will not work perfectly and you will have to use workarounds, but that’s because Microsoft forms part of an oligopoly therefore the rest of companies that are also trying to create their walled garden do not support Linux, and users need to create workarounds to this. Why is it a Linux issue when hardware companies create software intended for use only on Windows and also they don’t release the source code of such application (making easier for people to port it to other platforms)?

I mean, the top stupid complaint here was about Microsoft’s Teams not working properly. Are you kidding me? Of course it’s not going to work properly, they will do everything in their power to prohibit from working on anything but Windows if they could.

Tmpod
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616d

I mean, the top stupid complaint here was about Microsoft’s Teams not working properly. Are you kidding me? Of course it’s not going to work properly, they will do everything in their power to prohibit from working on anything but Windows if they could.

This, this and this. We’ve seen tech giants deliberately crippling competitors in order to make themselves look better in the picture, so why are they surprised Microsoft Teams doesn’t work as well outside their system? The LTT team is focused on tech news, surely they know some of this. I’d love to see Anthony (the Linux guy over there) commentate on this series, or give them some slight nudges every now and then, even if just in the script or video revision. I’m sure some stuff would be cleared up much better.

Also a lot of the stuff they mentioned were issues regarding closed source software companies, not issues regarding Linux.

As seen time and time again, it’s not Linux not being able to do something, it’s Microsoft or Apple screwing it over.

Similar story with Firefox and Google.

“I tried to install something using apt while I should have used pacman, how was I supposed to know this!?”

I mean at least that wouldn’t actually fuck up your system since it’ll just return a command not found.

Installing incompatible versions of stuff though… I’ve killed Linux installations by doing that.

That’s fair, I think a message saying something like “apt is used for debian based distributions” or whatever like that might be a good idea, but it maeks u tink if you should be putting that stuff in the first place.

Kromonos
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1116d

I think the series is good, and also important. Especially that it shows that Linux can also be used for gaming.
What bothers me a bit, however, is that a barrel is sometimes opened due to operating errors or false expectations. Such as the file extensions. Linux actually don’t use the file extensions, it never has, but have so “naturalized” by the users. The exotic setup of Linux is also often left under the table. Hardly anyone has their PC in a 19" rack in another room.

@newhoa@lemmy.ml
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816d

With his setup, I’m amazed that anything is working at all. It’s impressive that it’s working as well as it is.

And yeah, the false expectations part. It’s a pitfall for most people. It would actually be really interesting to watch someone who only grew up using Linux try and switch to Windows. I wonder how much more or less confusing it would be to them. That would be a good way to compare what is a true problem and what is just expectations. Windows has tons of quirks and bad design that people have normalized and learned to live with and have become non issues.

Tmpod
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316d

It would actually be really interesting to watch someone who only grew up using Linux try and switch to Windows.

For sure!

Like another commenter was saying too, they are just applying a Windows mentality on a Linux installation. If you go with a Windows mentality to macOS you’ll also have issues and vice-versa. The view they are showing isn’t great…
It’s also clear Luke has knows what his doing more than Linus, so at least we’re seeing a less confusing side of the story.

The exotic setup of Linux is also often left under the table. Hardly anyone has their PC in a 19" rack in another room.

Aside from the Thunderbolt connection maybe not getting proper driver support (because Intel sucks with open source), I don’t see the problem with this. Linux is very widely used in servers, embedded systems, and digital signage, all of which have more challenging display/input setups than Linus’s setup.

Kromonos
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216d

For someone who knows what he does, it’s no problem. But for a beginner?
Server run headless. So no monitor. Embedded systems mostly have their display directly onboard or have none, like the APU/ALIX Boards. And all of them have other usages than gaming.

@AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml
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Well, servers can also have software remote displays, display over ethernet or IPMI, or KVM switched displays. Digital signage may place the display many meters away from the computer in an outdoor electrical box, could well require a mosaic of displays over many ports to make a huge image, and can also be interactive through a large touchscreen or other sensors. Digital signage can sometimes also require pretty substantial graphics processing if the effective resolution is huge or if it’s highly reactive or interactive with many animations. Embedded devices can have irregularly shaped displays, weird interfaces, or again, multiple displays. Linux has excellent solutions for all of them, so I find it hard to believe that a remote PC environment connected through Thunderbolt would challenge it, barring a driver issue (which, again, would be Intel’s fault since Thunderbolt is proprietary to them, not a problem with Linux per se).

@Yonny@lemmy.ml
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816d

I’m tired of seeing these posted. It is beyond ignorant to use any one distro and say, “Linux (as a whole) is good/bad,” based solely on that experience.

Additionally, Steam works out of the box in Ubuntu. If you don’t know what you’re doing in Linux, stick to that.

@sibachian@lemmy.ml
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516d

should work out of the box with manjaro as well. on the steam deck recommended dev platform they list manjaro until steamOS 3 launches together with the dev kit.

Kromonos
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216d

Works out of the box with me on Mint, Ubuntu, Arch and Fedora.

Tmpod
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316d

Works out of the box pretty much everyone remotely mainstream tbh (from my experience)

I’ve never had Steam not work right after installing from the package manager on either Ubuntu, Manjaro, openSUSE, or Fedora. I don’t get why they’re having so much trouble.

Tmpod
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216d

I’m tired of seeing these posted. It is beyond ignorant to use any one distro and say, “Linux (as a whole) is good/bad,” based solely on that experience.

I’m posting just for awareness, but I agree the view they are painting isn’t very fair nor truthful, which is somewhat “worrying” as LTT has a very big audience.

Especially since I honestly expected they’d be a lot more knowledgable on this, being a literal tech news company.

Tmpod
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216d

Yeah true.

Leslie(she/her)
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615d

these videos are sponsored by microsoft

@Arcadius@lemmy.ml
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A lot of what they are using is atypical of a common setup for most users but I think the coverage has been excellent.

@adrianmalacoda@lemmy.ml
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My favorite part was when he tried to right-click save-as a shell script from a GitHub repository. I know intuitively that wouldn’t work, but I can understand why it might be unintuitive. Then again, I have save-as or wget’d a “download” link that turned out to be an HTML redirect to some mirror site, so I understand the frustration.

Same for when he tried to use apt-get on Manjaro in the beginning, I guess because he learned (or was taught) that apt is “the Linux package manager” which makes me wonder how much he prepared for this challenge. It seems he was sold on the premise that “Linux” is a perfect drop-in replacement for Windows and found out the hard way it is not.

Then again, the whole premise of “Linux gaming” seems to be making GNU/Linux into Windows, in a way, which is why I’m skeptical of the idea. GNU/Linux works just fine for me but I don’t use it for gaming. I don’t like the implication that GNU/Linux must be judged based on how much it can act like Windows.

@M500@lemmy.ml
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715d

He keeps saying that he wants to go into this without first getting outside help. Like they are learning this the hard way. Although some of the complaints I heard in this video were basically, “I don’t know how to use this software it is a problem.”

But if he were a brand new Windows user he would have the same kinds of complaints. So not knowing to use Pacman on manjaro is not really a problem with Linux. It’s a problem with his preparation and assumptions.

@pinknoise@lemmy.ml
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415d

He keeps saying that he wants to go into this without first getting outside help.

But he could just read a guide instead of winging it? They do PC build guides constantly and never complain when there is some gotcha or they have to use tools or read a manual.

This is only acting dumb to get engagement and maybe some FOSS people to be inspired by the channel to pick up the hobby of acquiring insane amounts of useless consumer electronics.

Also what’s Linux going to do if they talk shit about them? Stop sending free products or not sponsor them?

Speaking of which, this post was sponsored by the Linux foundation. Linux is the free and open source operating system that will power your everyday computing needs. It runs on all devices from your fridge to your supercomputer and can be fully customized via their kconfig utility. Head on over now to kernel.org/linustechtips to start your free as in freedom trial today.

@Whom@lemmy.ml
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616d

I think what frustrates me about these is the conversation that’s come out of them. In linux communities like /r/linux_gaming, the primary response from established users is something like “A lot of these issues are legitimate and there’s definitely still room for improvement, but at the same time some of these criticisms are directed at the wrong target, come from clinging onto expectations coming from Windows, or are sometimes a bit mean-spirited.” Then you’ll get a ton of people from the outside (along with particularly cynical members of the community) complaining about linux elitism and people being in denial if they say anything other than “linux is completely unusable garbage for new users”.

There’s plenty of elitists in our community, but they very rarely climb to the top of a conversation and are usually told to fuck off by everyone else. I don’t know if it’s because of Linus’ framing here or what, but there’s a lot of aggression flowing over and it’s a shame. It’s like all anyone sees is the minority of assholes and they blame it on all of us :/

@savoy
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416d

I haven’t seen this ep yet but I’m conflicted on it.

Sure getting attention of use is good, but the tactic of approaching this as a noob isn’t working. I seriously doubt someone would go straight to the terminal to install something of the GUI didn’t let them, or attempt things so pigheadedly. They’re attempting to use a different OS with the same Windows mentality. You’d have similar overall results getting someone trying to force Mac to act just like Windows.

Tmpod
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216d

I agree. It’s nice to get attention, but probably not like this. They present a lot of issues that aren’t necessarily Linux’s fault, but instead the fault of companies and organizations that don’t provide proper support for the system.

I also think the usual argument that it’s impossible to support Linux because there are so many distros is really not problematic. We don’t ask for packages for all distros, not even for all mainstream ones; just give us proper Linux kernel (and X/Wayland and whatnot) support and possibly a package and we’ll manage. There’s tons of package ports maintained by the community that work rather well on distros that don’t have official packages. As a software engineering company, you don’t need to provide a package for everyone, one or two is enough for the community to port the rest. That’s the beauty of Linux and open systems.

They present a lot of issues that aren’t necessarily Linux’s fault, but instead the fault of companies and organizations that don’t provide proper support for the system.

I quit a lot of proprietary apps cold turkey after switching to Linux. I am so thankful for that after seeing this.

@savoy
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115d

Exactly, the biggest issues with Linux are always hardware support. Microsoft was the first to hit it big in the consumer world, so along with their monopolization and the MaRkEt they were cemented as the platform that everything focuses on.

Yeah that argument is shit. Nobody is asking companies to support everything possible. Honestly as long as software is created with actual effort and packaged with .deb and .rpm, the community will figure out the rest. If it’s on Linux I’ve been able to install it on Void regardless of how it’s delivered.

The biggest issue though I see in Linux and general FOSS software adoption is capitalism. Companies will never put full effort in a large scale to put capital into development of solutions that make them less money. Until a proletarian state apparatus is implemented, where FOSS is mandated, Linux will never gain widespread adoption. Because let’s be honest, FOSS ideals are communist - much to the anger and denial of techbros who bang on about “don’t tread on me”

@camccar@lemmy.ml
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015d

Because let’s be honest, FOSS ideals are communist

GNU software maybe. Richard Stallman definitely a leftest. His rhetoric sounds very much like Marxist speech.

It’s just hard to make that argument in my mind when all these big companies that suck up the wealth of the entire world are built off FOSS software.

YouTube for example is just using FFMpeg in the background.

@savoy
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115d

It’s just hard to make that argument in my mind when all these big companies that suck up the wealth of the entire world are built off FOSS software.

There’s truth there for sure, but any sort of mode of production can be taken and used in a different system. Post-Mao China has clearly taken advantage of capitalist means of production but under the guise of a workers state as businesses cannot run in the country without being overseen by the CPC. So in reverse, capitalist entities can take FOSS and use them for their own benefit, especially if the software in question isn’t using staunch copy-left licensing like GPLv3.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word “Linux” in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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