I’m not even American, so it doesn’t affect me directly, but I am scared to death of a Trump presidency.
I am one of those people here who think that Biden is a far more competent executor of imperialist policies compared to Trump, but what I am even more afraid of is the early death of nascent left wing movements in America.
I am reminded of how the KPD getting its leaders murdered by Freikorps thugs during the Spartacist uprising (mind you, a much stronger party than any leftist movement in America today), and how its continued suppression paved the way to Nazi Germany.
Project 2025 will effectively embolden fascist thugs in America to do the same to the left wing movements, many of which are still in their cradle, and the death of leftist movements in their infancies will inevitably pave the way to a fascist America and undo many of the progress that had been made over decades.
The world cannot afford a fascist America. Imagine Hitler with nukes. The world will have to pay a much, much larger price as a result.
On this reasoning alone, I believe that Trump needs to be stopped at all cost. But many here have disagreed with me, and I need you to persuade me why I shouldn’t be afraid of Project 2025 at all. Even if the chance of that happening is 10%, I’m still not ready to gamble with it.
(I’m not saying we have to support Biden, I believe it is somewhat inevitable, I’m saying that we have to buy ourselves as much time as possible, even if it means strategic voting, to build a resilient leftist movement while delaying the inevitable for as long as we can.)
Liberals aren’t opposed to Project 2025.
Have you heard a liberal plan for what they will do to prevent it once they have power? No of course you haven’t. Simply having liberals in charge is all they care about, they have no intent to create policy to prevent or reduce its potential later.
Project 2030 will happen if Project 2025 does not, because liberals are not actually opposed to it, they are simply using it as a tool to get votes.
The democrats and the republicans are on the same team. They are tag teaming the working class into this outcome so that the working class does not pursue an option different to either of them. They are content with it happening either in 1 year or in 6 years. They don’t mind either of these outcomes, as long as you and everyone else isn’t fighting for a real opposition.
They democrats and the republicans are on the same team. They are tag teaming the working class into this outcome so that the working class does not pursue an option different to either of them.
Not only that, but the “ratchet” analogy people use is dead wrong, and it’s dangerous that people keep using it. Biden has implemented a bunch of things Trump couldn’t because courts, Democrats and their fans, and movements strenuously opposed him. The ratchet hasn’t just “stopped” with Biden. It’s advanced on slightly different fronts than liberals and the media want to pay attention to. The Democrats don’t need to keep it from rolling back to the “left” because there’s never any threat of it halting its “rightward” progress.
The world cannot afford a fascist America.
The world has been living with one for a long time now. Way before Trump ever ran for office.
This is just the part where white people are effected. The people who see this as a unique evil come from a position of privilege
Yup its just white people facing the negative consequences of our foreign policynfor a change.
The world cannot afford a fascist America. Imagine Hitler with nukes
we’ve had this since the 50’s? it was not the character of the US regime that stopped the US from using nuclear weapons to enact a genocide, but a credible retaliatory threat from the Soviet Union.
e: we actually have precedent for this, the literal Nazis produced a lot of but did not end up using chemical weapons because the allies also produced a large quantity & kept them in a state of readiness near the front to retaliate.
Imagine Hitler with nukes.
you should be so scared of project 2025 that you question why the republican’s only mainstream opponents don’t treat them like the terrorists they are, and instead constantly call for bipartisanship and adopt their policies as their own to compete for the title of ‘Most Racist’.
The Democrats we’re supposed to believe will stop Republicans: “I will say this—you’ll be shocked, probably—I think the country needs a strong Republican Party”
lathe time: even if Genocide Joe wins the election, the democrats will invite Trump to assume the presidency (or some other office of power like the Parliamentarian) using some kind of domestic unrest or geopolitical event as pretext
first as tragedy and all that
It’s be a good Onion bit maybe, but I think the Democrats will keep milking Trump as the devil incarnate until the end of time. They don’t need him to implement the fascism. They’re more than capable of doing it on their own. In fact, they get far less opposition that way.
oh my god they could vote him in as house speaker
They already brought Trump in to work on the border bill.
I see so much handwringing about stuff like project 2025 but less than zero pushback. Either they don’t actually believe it’s dangerous or they’re lazy.
Even OP says trump must be stopped at all costs, but the party that is supposed to be doing that, are shutting down any effective protest and siding with the fascists at every turn. What do these people even mean by “any means necessary”?
It reminds me of George Bush’s “project for a new American century”. No pushback, and our lives became worse because of it.
The same as they mean when they say that occupied people are allowed to resist their oppressor by any means possible – quietly and ineffectually, by any means that will not rock the boat but which will signal their virtue.
They need to stop Trump by any means necessary.
Except stopping giving bombs to Isreal, or doing anything about workers protections, or doing anything about the environment, or giving people stimulus money, or vocally supporting abortion rights, universal Healthcare, insider trading ban, election finance reform, breaking up monopolies, opposing the police state…
Basically they’re willing to have YOU do whatever is necessary to stop Trump.
Protesting isn’t allowed.
Haranguing them in public isn’t allowed.
General strikes, hell, normal strikes aren’t allowed.
Protest voting in midterms isn’t allowed.
The only thing you can do is
for who they tell you to
We are already Hitler with nukes to the rest of the world
A vote for Biden is approval of Biden, it legitimises him.
Biden is committing genocide. Voting for him legitimises genocide, it trivializes and normalises it. From this point on, if Biden wins, Dems will only get more brutal. A democratic party that knows people don’t even give a shit about mass murder, will be completely unhinged.On the other hand you have project 2025, which the Dems have no plans of averting, and a platform that is more or less already being implemented. There is no left-wing movements threatening the state. There were left-wing movements under Trump, because he was reprehensible even to the liberals. The next republican won’t be.
The Freikorps operated with the blessing of the SPD. In this analogy of yours, the democrats are the SPD. Giving the SPD legitimacy that they could then give the Freikorps was not a good thing.
Finally: whatever it is you think should be done, must be done now. We do not have the luxury of time. We do not have a few more years. The collapsing climate does not allow us to just extend time another election cycle. We cannot wait for a better presidential election.
Imagine Hitler with nukes
The american empire is already commiting a mechanised genocide, this is already happening right now. It is shockingly naive to believe after all we’ve seen that liberals and the majority of american people (including all thier client states) arent fascist nazis right now.
I am reminded of how the KPD getting its leaders murdered by Freikorps thugs during the Spartacist uprising
These Freikorps thugs were sent by the SPD. It’s in the interest of both liberals and conservatives to fight leftists, both liberalism and conservatism are rightwing, capitalist, imperialist and deeply chauvinist ideologies, one is just more focussed on hegemonial control and the other more on open violence. You cannot fight for queer liberation, or the rights of any other marginalized group such as America’s black community, immigrants or indigenous peoples, with Bidenite Democrats, the last 4 years with its constant onslaught of anti-queer and especially anti-trans legislation (and also the uninterrupted continuation of an ever brutalizing border regime and the steady increase of police militarization) have proven this. The only Democrat opposition to trans genocide we’ve seen in that timeframe has been on the state level, by individual actors, the Democrats as a federal-level institution are downright scared of being too openly supportive of trans rights, Clinton as a prototypical member of the DNC establishment has more or less stated that she views our rights as a fringe issue that poses a political liability and Biden has only started voicing support for trans people when election season went into full swing.
I’m not telling Americans not to vote for Biden in November, i honestly may do so if i was Amerikan, but i’d probably do so by mail-in ballot from abroad because if i would live in Amerika, my top priority would be to get the fuck out. These are the reasonable options for US trans people, either leaving the country or work on community organizing and prepare for mass civil unrest, because mass civil unrest is the only thing that will stop the clericofascist mob. Biden won’t do that, or he would have put more effort into clamping down on a movement that tried a coup and wanted to murder leading members of his party when he got into office. He’s too comfortable with fascism to actually stop it, and he doesn’t even meaningfully stall it.
So yes, i’m worried about the trans-exterminationist agenda of the US far right, it’s a main political concern of mine because it directly affects my life even here in Europe that Reaganite nazi orgs like the Heritage Foundation are actively financing and supporting anti-trans activism here. But none of this has gotten better under Biden, and he will not change that, because he needs a continued threat to marginalized people to browbeat them into voting for him. Democrats are not allies. All they have to offer is a false sense of safety, the illusion that you can vote yourself out of the existential threat that Republicans already pose. You can’t. You can try stalling for four more years, sure, but has that stalling actually worked in the last 4? And even if Biden wins the election, will he be able to govern afterwards or will there be another coup attempt that may work better this time?
When you focus on electoralism as the core strategy, you’re playing the wrong game. There is no safe option to vote for trans rights in the US. The American left needs to prepare for worst case scenarios instead of putting its hopes in an eroding system that never was designed to serve their interests in the first place. There needs to be real thought put into all possible outcomes, what to do under another Biden term, what to do when Trump gets elected and what to do when he steals the election, and all of these scenarios are dire for trans people and require strategies that lie outside electoral politics.
I’m not telling Americans not to vote for Biden in November, i honestly may do so if i was Amerikan, but i’d probably do so by mail-in ballot from abroad because if i would live in Amerika, my top priority would be to get the fuck out.
where would you go?
Ireland probably, but it’s a tough call, the situation for trans people isn’t exactly ideal anywhere.
Thailand seems like a decent choice if you can make it there
They were ahead of the curve on trans rights for long before the western libs started pretending to care and their new pro LGBT law is almost as based as Cuba’s
The fact that it’s a tropical paradise with some of the best cuisine in the world is just bonus
I’m not telling Americans not to vote for Biden in November, i honestly may do so if i was Amerikan, but i’d probably do so by mail-in ballot from abroad because if i would live in Amerika, my top priority would be to get the fuck out.
This is absolutely true because of climate change alone, if you’re in any way selfish we must admit we lost, we already lost a long time ago, its only up to how we cope and make things a little bit better. If you can move abroad there are better options and if you absolutely must stay in NA then be concious that the choices you make now are choices you’re going to regreat even 10 years from now not 25 not 50 years like we previously thought back in 2000s. Though I guess nobody realizes its been 25 years already and nothing was done since the early 2000’s climate treaties etc. We are halfway there already. Scary isn’t it?
2023-24 will smash temperature records, it will prove the models are all wrong, nothing will be done and everything happening in Gaza will repeated in the US. People are still traumatized by how the west doesn’t care about COVID anymore too.
Make absolutely no mistake liberals would not cry one bit if government troops start shooting at chuds looking for aid relief after [insert newest unprecedented hurricane/storm here], all it would take is a premise and an excuse. “Oh they were rebelling actualy so its good” and vice versa.
In that context whatever party is at the helm will make little difference 10-15 years from now IMO.
everything I read about Project 2025 sounds like exactly what America already is
Well as a minority living in America I’m more terrified of the dems normalizing genocide, normalizing the repression of activist groups and charging them thru RICO, normalizing anti immigrant sentiment by surpassing Trump’s deportation numbers and making his border laws more repressive
Somehow that shit seems a little more relevant to me than some hypothetical about Republicans fucking up already fucked up courts, taxing poor people more and shuttering an already half shuttered department of education
If Genocide is already normalized wtf do I have to fear anymore? WHY SHOULD I BE SCARED when I’ve already witnessed more death and depravity these last six months than I can handle for a lifetime
You should be afraid of Project 2025, but also recognize that Biden isn’t going to stop it. He isn’t doing anything to materially oppose fascism, what makes you think that would change if he beats Trump? We did the harm reduction election and now we’re in the middle of a genocide and the Democrats are not really getting pushed left at all.
What is to stop them from implementing these plans with Biden in office anyways? He’s proven that he won’t step up to stop right wing legislation anyways. I highly doubt the color of the presidents tie makes much of a difference here.
This.
If dems win the project will still happen but libs will just call you a rpeublican when you ask why they aren’t doing anything.
It will happen no matter what, one party openly champions it and speaks harshly, the other does so by inaction and once in a while throws some nice words. The US already walked off the cliff so to speak, the lurching feeling of the fall just hasn’t caught up to some yet. There’s so many ways to keep movements down.
Yeah, one party will start the killing now and one will start the killing a little later. Is there not a clear less bad pick?
this is the 99% hitler vs 100% hitler argument
Obviously when treading in this discussion, it is necessary to genuflect and state that Biden and his entire cabinet would see [redacted] under any ethical system of government
but playing with this logic a little bit, wasn’t 1% of Hitler about a hundred thousand dead? Naturally if I say I have a preference, people will assume that I think that
ing and doing nothing else politically ever is the ideal leftist strategy, but like, if it’s just bubbling in a bubble and then getting back to the orgs, is there a reason that 99% Hitler and 100% Hitler have no meaningful differences, even if that ratio is correct?Well I think if you’re going to engage in this kind of thing, then the comparison can’t be done in a vacuum. What happens if Biden is re-elected? Almost certainly in 2028 a Republican will win. I don’t think Trump will be able or willing to run in 2028, which means it’s probably going to be a Republican other than Trump. So, is it better to vote for 99% Hitler now to prevent 100% Hitler from being elected in 2024, knowing that there’s a very strong chance that in 2028 110% Hitler will be elected? Is it better to have 100% Hitler in 2024, expecting that another 99% Hitler would win in 2028 rather than 110% Hitler?
Beyond that, if you vote for a genocider you’re setting the precedent that the DNC doesn’t need to worry about whether genocide affects elections. The DNC should lose this race based on the genocide they have perpetrated alone.
The issue of seeing these things as static points rather than a process already live, we’re already guaranteed killing, there has been killing, there will be more killing no matter which one, one will just have more open optics and bad aesthetics for libs, the other the illusion of status quo and pretty words to give the pampered an illusion of progress. You could remove all the ‘one party’, even the fried fish sammich fan, but the conditions that created these individuals are still out in the world unsettled, so its like digging a small hole at the beach, it will just immediately fill with more sand.
‘Start’ killing whom? Because the Democrats are already killing Palestinians as we speak.
If it isn’t me it might as well not be happening!
Both parties start the killing at the same time, one is just more enthusiastic about it. Bidens border policy is worse than the previous one, he’s put more kids in cages, deported more and given more money to the cops. I struggle to think of a measure where he does less than the previous administration. Pretending like it’s “stagnation or murder” rather than “murder or murder” is folly.
On top of that voting for Biden is once again legitimising the “vote for the lesser evil” ideology that had brought us to this point. Every election the lesser evil takes the position of the evil of the previous election. Now “the lesser evil” is commiting genocide. Voting for Biden legitimises genocide, makes it so that’s no longer a step too far. What do you think the democrats will do, if they get elected on a platform of “we don’t care about genocide”?
One party is currently murdering people in droves in Palestine. Nobody with a soul could possibly vote for Joe Biden.
I am reminded of how the KPD getting its leaders murdered by Freikorps thugs during the Spartacist uprising
The liberals of the time supported and funded the Freikorps in doing this. You couldn’t have prevented this by doing the German equivalent of “Vote Blue” Democrats would absolutely support and embolden the mobs if they formed today.
But many here have disagreed with me, and I need you to persuade me why I shouldn’t be afraid of Project 2025 at all. Even if the chance of that happening is 10%, I’m still not ready to gamble with it.
You should be afraid, but voting for Biden won’t stop that. Even if it foiled their plans temporarily, which I doubt, you’re only delaying the project by 2-4 years. There is no victory, just buying time.
I’m saying that we have to buy ourselves as much time as possible, even if it means strategic voting,
Time to do what? The left’s height was probably around 2020 with Bernie. More time to see the decline of leftist politics? More time for people to become even hopeless? I honestly don’t see any indication that waiting is going to do anything. We have less political power than even and I don’t see that changing.
