Reading about the current events got me looking into the history of Palestine and Israel, and I noticed a lot of Israel’s politicians (like Yitzhak Shamir, Menachem Begin, and Ariel Sharon to name a few) were Zionist terrorists (using the word literally, not subjectively) since before the establishment of Israel. The groups they belonged to, like Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi have been designated terrorist organizations by the United Nations, British, and United States governments, and
Albert Einstein, in a letter to The New York Times in 1948, compared Irgun and its successor Herut party to “Nazi and Fascist parties” and described it as a “terrorist, right wing, chauvinist organization”.
The Zionists have explained their view as follows:
Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: “Ye shall blot them out to the last man.”
and
Late in 1940, Lehi, having identified a common interest between the intentions of the new German order and Jewish national aspirations, proposed forming an alliance in World War II with Nazi Germany.[22] The organization offered cooperation in the following terms: Lehi would rebel against the British, while Germany would recognize an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel, and all Jews leaving their homes in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions, could enter Palestine with no restriction of numbers.[32] Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik went to Beirut to meet German official Werner Otto von Hentig. The Lehi documents outlined that its rule would be authoritarian and indicated similarities between the organization and Nazis.
It just gets worse the more you look into it, but it does give important context to the current genocide in Gaza, and to the decades old conflict in general.
Agreed. I find the people in my life who blindly support Israel know nothing of the history of Zionism prior to 1948 and think Palestine was given to Israel just because of the holocaust, almost universally omitting that there were already people there and the responsibility of all western governments (I’m considering Russia “west” here) in the oppression of Jews in the years leading up to, and after, the holocaust.
The Behind the Bastards episode on Bibi Netanyahu talked about how he really got his start in the US as a lobbyist for the state of Israel and the media blitz Israel utilized to get both American parties to unconditionally support Israel. Most Americans are just propagandized af.
oh no are you criticizing something a Jewish person did?! You are a anti-Semitic Nazi!! of course S/
Philly isn’t sending their best.
Removed by mod
You are right, of course. There are things we can’t condone. But you realize that by saying it you sound exactly like the “all lives matter” response to BLM: technically correct, but oblivious to the context in which the original statement arises. When we say Palestinian lives matter, we aren’t saying Israeli lives don’t. We’re saying that you have forgotten that Palestinian lives even matter at all.
My favorite Israeli history tidbit is how their terror cells assassinated one of the guys trying to negotiate a peaceful way out of the violence creating the state of Israel caused because they were (wrongly, it turns out) afraid that the official government would try to take a peaceful solution to the conflict which might have jeopardized the creation of the ethnostate.
Bernadotte had previously gained international renown for negotiating the release of thousands of Nazi concentration camp prisoners including hundreds of interred Jewish people.
You should have continued citing your sources to have complete picture and correct historical context, not picking and choosing since it creates distorted picture:
Believing that Nazi Germany was a lesser enemy of the Jews than Britain, Lehi twice attempted to form an alliance with the Nazis, proposing a Jewish state based on “nationalist and totalitarian principles, and linked to the German Reich by an alliance”.[22][23] After Stern’s death in 1942, the new leadership of Lehi began to move towards support for Joseph Stalin’s Soviet Union[17] and the ideology of National Bolshevism, which was considered an amalgam of both right and left.
I guess, yea.
Lehi supported both Hitler and Stalin.You’re right, that does make the picture more complete!
To add even more context, Lehi was an offshoot of Irgun which was an extremist offshoot of Haganah. They had less than 300 members compared to Haganah’s 20,000.
Their ideology probably isn’t an accurate representation of all the politicians you mentioned except Yitzhak Shamir who was a leader of Lehi and became a prime minister of Israel 40 years later which is a bit weird.
Thanks for the additional context.
Well, about Ariel Sharon (from Wikipedia)
An official enquiry found that he bore “personal responsibility” for the Sabra and Shatila massacre of Palestinian refugees, for which he became known as the “Butcher of Beirut” among Arabs. He was subsequently removed as defense minister.
And Begin
was described by the British government as the “leader of the notorious terrorist organisation”.
And there was a famous open letter published (the one signed by Einstein, among others) that
described Begin’s Herut party as “terrorist, right-wing chauvinist organization in Palestine,”[34] “closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties” and accused his group (along with the smaller, militant, Stern Gang) of preaching “racial superiority” and having “inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community”.
And those guys held the highest government office of Israel! It might be weird but it’s not uncommon, especially if you look into other government posts too. Like I said, the more you look into it the worse it gets.
Edit: another example
In 1915, Pinhas Felix Rosenblüth, who rose to be Israel’s first Justice Minister, wrote in a field report on Ostjuden published in Der Jüdische Student that the great lesson for young Jewish Zionists fighting on the eastern front, on experiencing delusions at what they observe of Jewish life there, was that Palestine was one large “institute for the fumigation of (all) Jewish vermin” (Große Entlausungsanstalt für alles jüdische Ungeziefer).
ideology of National Bolshevism
That’s just nazis calling themselves “socialists”, the same way nazis call themselves “national socialists” while actively killing socialists.
Abolishing private ownership of the means of production is definitionally left, so I don’t know who would consider it an “amalgam of both right and left” 😂
Unlike in the UK where Jews were considered second-class citizens, or in Nazi Germany where they were being ethnically cleaned & genocided, the Soviet Union had Jews among the Communist party ranks, including the politburo. There were Jewish Bolsheviks in the Communist revolution, so they’d been there from the start.
Abolishing private ownership of the means of production is definitionally left, so I don’t know who would consider it an “amalgam of both right and left” 😂
Maybe because Ultranationalism is very much a far right aspect of fascism?
Sure, but I don’t see the relevance.
National Bolshevism,whose supporters are known as National Bolsheviks and colloquially as Nazbols, is a syncretic political movement committed to combining ultranationalism and communism.
Nazbols are cryptofascists; they’re anticommunist LARPing as communists. https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/National_Bolshevism
They’re playing the same word salad game that the National Socialists did before them.
First time I’ve seen the word ‘cryptofascist’ outside of Red Dwarf.
It’s pretty common in certain circles. Less common in the past few years.
They stopped hiding.
Apologies, I meant smegging cryptofascists.
I guess that’s the far-right aspect to “balance out” the far-left aspect… A perfect amalgamation!
Think you didn’t read it thoroughly enough. That text is talking about national “bolsheviks”, so just nazis.
Yeah it was about the USSR and about Nazbols, but I only noticed the USSR part on first reading.
Anyway Nazbol shitstains always seem to pop up at the fringes to prey on baby leftists. Caleb Maupin’s little cryptofash cult infested BreadTube for a while, seemingly collapsed in a sex scandal, but still somehow seems to skulk about: https://cpiusa.org/
If I recall correctly, the Hagana, Irgun and Lehi brigade eventually became the modern day IDF (literally). Those Nazi worshippers today are an important cultural aspect of Israel, in the form of helping to brainwash Israeli youth, and they’re also remembered as heroes by Israel (and ‘remembered’ as in the very same terrorists back then who are still alive today are remembered. This wasn’t so long ago that it’s beyond living memory). Israelis also usually go out and protest any time a member of the IDF is on trial for murdering a Palestinian.
I’ve basically always thought it would be a funny solution to everyone’s gripe with Hamas to just give them new branding as well and voila, problem solved.
This is kind of how I became a socialist.
Did a mission trip to Nicaragua when I was young, got home and wondered why the country was so fucked up.
“Oh, it’s literally entirely America’s fault, intentional, and their exact strategy for foreign relations which is just imperialism.”
Isn’t zionism the result of some dumb dudes imagination
arguably, that’s every country, philosophy, nationality, religion, paradigm, law and ethnicity.
Would OP please consider posting this to politics?
You could do so yourself but I understand not wanting to as this would quickly turn your inbox into a trash fire for a long time depending of which politics community you post it to and who is federated with who.
I didn’t want to steal credit for someone else’s post. Or notoriety. Potato potahto.
Go ahead, please post it anywhere. It’s important that people know history.
I can only post it to kbin. I’ve never been approved for Lemmy world or .ml
ETA: annnd I got the error message. Please remind me later
Some things are very wrong with lemmy when good content like this needs to get posted in memes …
I got an error message but it posted anyway.
I’m 54. When people ask my opinion of this war, I change the subject. I’m not proud of that, but I’ve seen this war more than once.
I have strong opinions about many things, but I’ve seen what this particular war does and I’ve learnt there’s no winning it. I donate to Gaza, but nothing I can say will change the horror the latest flare up of this war will bring. Im sorry.
Haganah actually fought against Irgun and Lehi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saison“The Haganah, the largest Yishuv paramilitary, was a Labor Zionist organization; on occasion, it partook in military action (such as during The Saison) against certain radical right-wing Jewish political opponents and militant groups, sometimes in cooperation with the British Mandate administration.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Zionism#HistoryAnd the Irgun split from Haganah, because they were presumably too defensive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah#1931_Irgun_spliti thought the palestinian troubles started around 1920?
which sources did you use for your research?
Why 1920?
Everything stated is linked in the description.
True, the concept of Transfer in Zionist thought and the displacement of Palestinians since the 1920s culminated into a full fledged ethnic cleansing campaign in 1948
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948
Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
Isn’t this true of most countries?
Of those that came in contact with Europeans yes, I think so, but I’m not sure how, for example, the Lakota people came to be on the land they were before they came in contact with Europeans.
Jewish culture and history, especially Zionism is as diverse as every other culture and people is. Picking the worst doesn’t show the whole picture about Zionism. There is a whole Socialist and even Anarchist tradition of and within Zionism.
EDIT: I didn’t mean to offend anybody and everybody has a right to criticize Israel. My whole point is that Israel’s history and especially Zionism is obviously not one-sided, but is also rich in liberal and progressive ideas, that are worth to studied.
If you are interested in Socialist Zionism I recommend the following article as a starting point:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_ZionismJewish culture and history
Zionism
No one here has a problem with Jewish culture and history, Zionism though we do. Socialist and anarchist settler colonialists are still settler colonialists. Those socialist and anarchists you’re talking about, do they fight alongside Palestinian resistance against the Israeli state? In South Africa for example, there were white people who were sympathetic to the plight of black South Africans and aided the ANC especially in sabotage operations; I haven’t heard of socialist and anarchist Israelis who do the same. There was a guy whose name escapes me who I believe was Jewish, who also fought alongside Che if I recall correctly, who initially supported Zionism, but when he went to Israel and saw what Israel was, he fought alongside the Palestinian resistance (having some trouble finding him; he was posted about here on hexbear). Israelis who support Palestinian resistance absolutely have our support here.
how can you have anarchy if you believe in the state of israel
The Kibbutz movement is heavily influenced by Anarchism for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Israel.
the heirarchy understander has logged on
kinda antisemitic there to declare that all jews sjpport z*onism
What do you mean? I didn’t declare anything.
That’s so true!
And the Nazis had people like Strasser! You see, Nazis weren’t so bad, guys! Picking the worst like Hitler and Goebbels is so unfair! Nazism is as diverse as any other culture.
Hitler loved dogs after all.
Ya know until material conditions came knocking and he tested his cyanide supply ona dog to make sure he wouldn’t have a painful death.
Ah, the good old comparison of Israel and Nazis. Please be antisemitic somewhere else.
???
Jews have been likening Zionism’s neocolony to the Third Reich as early as 1948. I collected quotes from Orthodox Jews, Shoah survivors, and even a few ‘moderate’ Zionists making their own comparisons after my Sephardic friend encouraged me to write an article formally comparing the two entities.
A case in point is Golda Meir (Meyerson), who was in fact one of the more hawkish leaders of the Yishuv. On May 6, 1948, following a visit to Arab Haifa only a few days after its conquest and the flight and expulsion of the city’s Arab population, Meir reported to the Jewish Agency Executive that “there were houses where the coffee and pita bread were left on the table, and I could not avoid [thinking] that this, indeed, had been the picture in many Jewish towns [i.e., in Europe during World War II].”42
Within Mapam—a left‐[leaning] Zionist party that was part of the state’s first government headed by David Ben Gurion—the expulsion of Palestinians was the subject of intense debate. For example, Eliezer Pra’i (later Peri), editor of the Mapam daily al‐Hamishmar, wrote: “Among the best of our comrades the thought has crept in that perhaps it is possible politically to achieve our ingathering in the Land of Israel by Hitlerite‐Nazi means.”43
Following the atrocities committed during Operation Hiram by the [neocolonial] army (IDF) who conquered the central‐upper Galilee pocket, the [neocolonial régime] established a three‐person investigation committee. At a cabinet meeting on November 17, 1948, convinced that the army and defense establishment were being evasive, Mapam representative Aharon Cisling stated: “I couldn’t sleep all night. […] This is something that determines the character of the nation. […] Jews too have committed Nazi acts.”44
(Emphasis added.)
That is only small sample of the comparisons that I collected—not a single one of which came from a gentile.
Of course, there are limits to the analogy, and one could argue that such analogies are never necessary, but whatever the case I find it troubling to dismiss them as ‘antisemitic’ seeing as how many well adjusted, well educated Jewish adults have made and continue to make their own comparisons between the Reich and the Zionist occupation (which most certainly isn’t a ‘democracy’).
Ethnonationalism is ethnonationalism, even when a Jewish person does it. Most ethnonationalists are not Jewish, and a lot of Zionists aren’t either.
I hope you’re not implying that Jewish people are all ethnonationalists…
What kind of socialism is able to simultaneously be socialist while excluding exploited and oppressed peoples? What kind of anarchy persists as anarchy upon the backs of those whose homes have been stolen from them?
Socialist Zionism is not at all about excluding, exploiting or oppressing.
Funnily enough it was also Albert Einstein, who supported Labor Zionism.
Can you show some examples of socialist and anarchist Zionism?
Jewish Autonomous Oblast was created as a project of communist Zionists, who didn’t approve of resettlement to Palestine.
Oh so all of those good parts of history you were talking about are when they directly opposed Isreal and zionism isn’t that interesting.
Yeah, because Zionism is not particularly about the land of today’s Israel and Palestine, but about a Jewish state in some form.
You’ll just have to trust them
No you don’t. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Zionism
Thank you, I didn’t know that.
The Communist, socialist, and labor strands of Israeli politics have all failed and were overrun by the Israeli fascists. Learning the past history of their existence doesn’t change the concrete reality that the present history of Israel is being written by genocidal fascists whom share ideological similitudes with Nazi Germany.
I wasn’t talking about Israel’s politics, but about the very diverse history of Zionism. Also comparing Israel with Nazi Germany isn’t pretty problematic.
That’s true. Weren’t those Zionist factions suppressed by the imperialist settler-colonial Zionist factions? What have they been able to accomplish since just before the Nakba?
Socialist Zionists were probably oppressed just like Socialist Anti-Zionists.
Already in the 1920s the Labor movement disregarded its socialist roots and concentrated on building the nation by constructive action. According to Tzahor its leaders did not “abandon fundamental ideological principles”.[15] However, according to Ze’ev Sternhell in his book The Founding Myths of Israel, the labor leaders had already abandoned socialist principles by 1920 and only used them as “mobilizing myths”.
From the page Dataprolet linked.
There’s a deep history of American workers movements that doesn’t mean the entire country doesn’t deserve to be nuked from orbit.
